Board 8 > Scarlet Ranks 150 User-Nominated Wrestlers Part II

(+) Yeah! (+)

Cage is cast well on the show is the big thing. I don't really know if his matches are super repetitive because he doesn't have a ton of matches and he has a variety of opponents/gimmick matches. I mean maybe Cage secretly sucks but on the show I find him entertaining. Only big man on the show I can really say that for.
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#35 - Hurricane Nominated by: Johnbobb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztwfe5vgPgQ" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8cstOoyaYU" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d8EmxTnMtk" data-time="

Call it Vintage Scarlet, but I have massive love for the greatest of superhero wrestlers. If I have to defend my position, I will simply point to the greatest mini feud in the history of wrestling - the Rock vs. the Hurricane. In a three week build leading up to the night before Wrestlemania, the Rock and Hurricane laid down some of the most memorable promos of the early 2000s. It all led up to the Hurricane getting a surprise victory over the Rock and really putting him over for the fans of that era. The Hurricane actually was able to go toe-to-toe on the mic with the Rock and not only hold his own, but make his character feel like it mattered, and that has always left a huge impression on me.

The concept of The Hurricane as a character will always be my #1 spot of most underrated gimmicks in wrestling history. Gregory Helms really had a love for the old school comic book archetype he portrayed, and he had a great attention to detail. There also was a ton of variety in what he presented; I think he could've gotten much more out of the gimmick if it was pushed as a more main event-caliber character. Helms embodied the delusion of his character to such an extent that it came full circle and became just as believable as every other bizarre weirdo on the roster. Moreso, even. You wanted to believe a man could fly. And where else would you put a flyer than in the cruiserweight mix? It was a great choice.

Helms is from the Hardy school of wrestling thought and apparently had a big part in creating the Broken Universe. Of course, who could forget how he buried young talent as well as the man of Three H's? All of that after the return of the greatest boy band in wrestling history, Three Count. Another of Helms' great underrated gimmicks, Three Count drew fantastic heel heat and would have been much more at home in a company starring a fat dude dancing in sunglasses with two skinny rednecks. It was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Ultimately, though, this is a ranking purely based on my utter subjective love of comics being well-represented by a very talented worker. I know I'll get comics like, "Why is he above Glacier herp a derp this is a subjective list me no understand." That's okay. This isn't even the most egregious ranking that we'll get to yet.
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The next ranking will be another one mired in controversy. Perhaps even more than D-Bry.
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Hell yeah Hurricane

His feud with Rock is one of my all time favorites. I really think mixed card feuds are way underused in wrestling. You obviously wouldn't put them on PPVs too often, but to fill out stuff between PPVs before? Why not? Doesn't run the featured match on the PPV into the ground and gets the midcarder over as mattering.
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Lopen posted...

Hell yeah Hurricane

His feud with Rock is one of my all time favorites. I really think mixed card feuds are way underused in wrestling. You obviously wouldn't put them on PPVs too often, but to fill out stuff between PPVs before? Why not? Doesn't run the featured match on the PPV into the ground and gets the midcarder over as mattering.

I've always agreed with this point of view. If a guy like the Rock can take a loss from the Hurricane the week before Wrestlemania and still come out as the hugest of draws, I don't see how this hurts anyone who is a legitimate superstar.
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#34 - Kazuchika Okada Nominated by: CybrMonkey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk0EnBJP_2c" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izc1gKxq2T0" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOZE0fhFt4M" data-time="

Kazuchika, the Rainmaker, was a crucial focal point in this golden age of Japanese wrestling. His starpower only continues to grow after his historic two-year reign as champion in New Japan, where he had the greatest string of title defenses in the history of wrestling. Period. End of discussion. If someone ever asks me who the greatest champion in the entire business was, I would likely answer Okada. There are very few men who can claim to be the single best wrestler ever, and Okada is in that elite, short list.

So then, the question is, why did I rank him #34?

The answer is that, subjectively, I've never found a particular reason to really get behind Okada. Unlike the guys ahead of Okada on this list who are not as proficient at wrestling as Okada, I can't root for Okada in the same way as them. That's because I don't believe the character presented by Okada is as compelling as others on this list. Okada is, in essence, Batman. Batman is objectively the greatest superhero in comic book history, but I'd much rather read about Animal Man, Booster Gold, and John Constantine. Those are characters which really resonate with me. Okada is the best possible version of the generic create-a-wrestler. That's because he really isn't a generic create-a-wrestler. But if you pushed me to describe his character, I would have a very difficult time doing so. It's not a character with much flavor. And when we reach this super-upper echelon of elites, I'm going to demand character and wrestling working hand-in-hand.

Compare for a moment the Rock and Okada. I'm using the Rock as an example here because he was not nominated. Okada is about ten times the wrestler the Rock ever was, and let's be honest, the Rock was definitely a good worker. What Okada lacks is that star quality the Rock has. Dwayne is bursting at the seams with character, creating memorable moments constantly. His ringwork has the benefit of this force of character behind it, so that makes me more invested in the character. Okada's character, conversely, is boosted by amazing ringwork. However, the most memorable moments in wrestling for me are hybrids of great promos and great ringwork. Austin and Hart is the quintessential match and angle. I'd argue Okada is better than both of them in the ring. But they still come out on top of Okada because they are in the upper echelons of both promos and ringwork.

Okada fans shouldn't take this as disrespect to the work of a phenomenal talent, but insight into my worldview on wrestling.

Next up... I think the people who comment here will think this guy should be lower, but general fans will think he should be higher.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggKeB9OOkRY" data-time="
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Yeah I have no idea where I'd rank Okada, myself. I feel like he's a guy I really need to follow NJPW more to really get because like you I value character and unlike my favorites from NJPW he doesn't have it just by watching spot matches here and there. I feel like if I fully followed the product I could probably get behind him though.

Also doesn't help I haven't seen any of his great matches with Omega because I have to go out of my way to see em and yeah the urge isn't there so much with him. I will watch em at some point.
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I'm waiting for Voltch and NBIceman to hate me.
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I gotta bust out my TOO LOW for the first time in awhile.

In a company full of people i struggle to give any sort of shit about, Okada has always been the absolute opposite of that. He exudes a confident charisma that comes through in his style and honestly once he turned face he has been so much better. (Just as a philosophical thing I really hate Tough Guy heels who just go out there and win. That's not a heel, that's a babyface)

They're all obviously talented in NJPW. Hell they're mostly all really talented in the Fed now too. So the kind of fundamental charisma and psychology of Okada being as top flight as it is....even I would likely have him top 10 and I'm not even a big puro fan.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

I'm waiting for Voltch and NBIceman to hate me.

DEAD TO ME
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#33 - CM Punk Nominated by: ZeroSignal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ms0DFxpptk" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Y7Qo3cXHQ" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13FV1GaA20I" data-time="

How ya doin', MWC?

Punk, the most successful student of creative complaining, is best known for his undefeated record of 1-0 in the Judicial Squared Circuit. He's also well-remembered for his miserable 0-2 record in Shoot Hell in a Cell matches. But I think I best know him for being the guy that didn't beat Bobby Lashley at December to Disregard. Punk is a tough guy to rank because his personal life biases can easily outweigh his in-ring talent or mic work. Hell, the fact that he married AJ Lee makes him one of those heels for life (kind of like the husband of Trish Stratus who was booed out of the building at her Hall of Fame induction just for marrying her). But Punk has a body of work that demonstrates both in-ring excellence as well as amazing promo work. Cena and Punk will be forever remembered as the best feud of an entire era of WWE wrestling, and that's impressive (despite a lack of competition).

Now, whether you hate the guy for leaving or you hate the guy for complaining or you hate the guy for supporting Pepsi against vastly superior Coke products, there are certainly a lot of reasons to dislike Punk. And he's certainly an arrogant sunovabitch by a lot of accounts. I won't deny that. But at the same time, having allowed time to pass since his WWE departure and learning about his state of mind at the Amann trial, I've developed some sympathy for Punk. He was just utterly, completely miserable by the end of his run. And sometimes people just aren't a good fit for the WWE system. I don't think we'll ever know what a healthy company for Punk would look like once he outgrew the Ring of Honor paychecks. And there's nothing wrong with that. Wrestling is a business and if you have no passion for your career (and you can afford it), you should look for a different line of ring.

At least we'll always have Punk rolling his wrists around as a warm-up on the WWE Network.
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Its ironic to me that in the end Jeff Hardy and Punk are kinda exactly the same.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

I'm waiting for Voltch and NBIceman to hate me.

No hate here. One thing I'll never fault in wrestling is "I recognize this guy is good, but he doesn't really connect with me personally." I think Okada's character growth over the last few years has been fascinating, personally, but wrestling is a performance art. That kind of thing is too subjective to argue about.

I have pretty much the same problem with Naito. I like him fine and I know he's objectively great, but his act isn't over with me the same way it is for a lot of people.
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voltch posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

I'm waiting for Voltch and NBIceman to hate me.

DEAD TO ME

:(
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I'm not bitter about Punk leaving. I just think he's grossly overrated by both himself and his fanbase. Had even before he left. He wrestles a style that he isn't very good at in a lot of ways and comes off as sloppy (I guess in that sense AJ Lee imitated him well), and gets undue props for mic skills when half the reason people think he's good is he was given freedom to "shoot" that most guys never got. His Pipe Bomb promo was very exciting at the time but it went stale fast when he tried to sell off his pale imitations as "Pipe Bombs."

Straight Edge Society was probably his career peak for me outside the 2 months or so Pipe Bomb Punk was actually fresh and exciting. But even that gimmick had him doing the same thing after a while. I kinda feel like in an era with more dynamic characters Punk would've shone more brightly, but as it is his career was basically a recurring theme of kinda fun followed by beating the fun into the ground. His title reign being like 400 days is too fitting for that reason, as only the beginning and end of it were particularly entertaining.

Also Cult of Personality is a bad Wrestling Theme even if it's a good song. Fire Burns all the way.

All that being said I do like him and this ranking is a fair one for him. Very solid but not in the discussion for best of all time like some of his rabid fans would have you believe, which is the area where this is.
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Will say it's rare for someone to do an Okada writeup of this type without mentioning that TNA run.

But Okada's ascension basically kept me in wrestling.

I had soured on WWE big time, TNA was shit and DDT content wasn't readily available. Then along came ustream showings of NJPW and suddenly things got real interesting. The Tanahashi/Okada feud was so far above anything I had followed live. The classic feuds from WWE, WCW or 80 and 90s Japan owned, but they weren't contemporary. Okada was just a young prodigy who grabbed my attention and got me hooked into a new product. At the time I was pushing it hard in the wrestling topics, but that got very little traction.

The guys who knew Japanese wrestling had by this point all left the board, so promoting this company here was really hard. I did everything I could to link to the G1 matches and great entrances. But I think people only started to notice NJPW when AJ Styles finally arrived. That feud he had with Okada started slow, but by the end, it just elevated Okada to a new level.

I started out thinking he was one of the 10 best wrestlers in the world, now I think he's one of the 10 best of all time.
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I never watched him in TNA.
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Punk doesn't like HHH, so I like Punk.
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Wow, Trips is that detestable for you? I can understand that.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

What really impresses me most about Scott is his ability to transform. In wrestling, you evolve or die. And in a business where beloved workers might only last 5 or 6 years, Steiner has remained relatively relevant for 30+ years. That's amazing. Whether he was putting on clinics as a tag team technician or shouting from the rooftops as a world champion, Steiner has run the gamut as a worker, accruing so many accolades that it will make your headspin. And on top of that, he's just such a great character in and out of the ring, that I just had to throw him a bone and give him a Top 40 slot.

Just finally read this entry and it's fucking gold. Top 40 seems right for me too if I ever did a list. Scott Steiner was easily one of the best things in WCW's final year, if not the ABSOLUTE best thing. WCW put the world title on him for a solid 4 months, which was the longest world title reign in that company since Goldberg's undefeated streak in 1998, and a breath of fresh air after the company spent 2000 tossing the belt around like a game of hot potato.

While the matches themselves were ass and completely forgettable, Steiner was a guy who looked like a damn champion when he came to the ring and verbally thrashed his opponents (and the English language). In at least 2-3 interviews, Steiner stated that he always wanted to feud with The Rock in the WWF. Could you imagine that feud if both guys were given the opportunity to cut their own promos (cause let's be real here; Rock would have that freedom with Vince, Steiner never did)? I even did a dream scenario reverting back to the InVasion angle.

(For the record, I know this couldn't have happened regardless, cause Steiner was injured for a good chunk of 2001 and decided to just ride out his Time Warner Cable contract like Hogan, Nash, etc.)
- Steiner ends Nitro as the World/US champion after winning the US title from Booker T.
- Two months later, Big Poppa Pump reveals himself to be the man stalking Undertaker's wife. The two get put in a match at InVasion where Steiner wins with help from a random WCW star. Steiner rewards him with the US title (hell, it could be Kanyon since he was given the belt by Booker T in real time).
- Vince realizes the dangers of Steiner and convinces The Rock to come back and sign with WWF. Boom, feud ignited.

The rest is a tossup. Either Rock beats Steiner for the WCW title (very likely), or Steiner escapes a couple more times with the belt until losing it in a huge upset to Chris Jericho, allowing Jericho's stock to skyrocket and Steiner to have a nearly-year-long reign with the WCW World title.

And of course I play his promos almost on the regular...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOoXZe_S3wI" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaOybekzzZA" data-time="
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That is some fantastic fantasy booking right there.
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#32 - Adrian Neville Nominated by: Mega Mana

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cSGYAha4nk" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7tFJKvZQV4" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMqWk0npb-U" data-time="

Need to write a ranking to hold my mind down. Br-br-br-br-br-break orbit.

Neville, another great superhero character, and star of the classic pulp sci fi story "The Man That Gravity Forgot", always has been a favorite of mine. Not only is he an extremely overlooked character actor, but his athletic prowess bowls me over at every turn. As a cruiserweight champion, he consistently demonstrated his skill as a monster heel of sorts; I always wanted a tag team of Braun and Neville. In many ways, they share the same character at different statures. That cruiserweight run was truly something special; furthermore, the brief moments of Neville without the title in that run (against Tozawa) showed a man who was building his entire life around a title. When it was taken away, he was almost deranged - a lost child in a department store without any directions.

But I think for me, one of the singularly greatest moments in wrestling history was Neville vs. Seth Rollins on Monday Night Raw. For my money, this is the greatest match on either RAW or Smackdown. The story of the cocky heel setting ridiculous stipulations for an open challenge demonstrated the arrogance of Rollins as a character, but the resulting match had the sort of unpredictable magic that only wrestling can provide. Neville worked his ass off in a long, hard-fought match that truly had me on the edge of my seat, believing he just might win the top title in the WWE. It's only in the elite, rare matches of this caliber where I utterly suspend my disbelief, my jaded cynicism propelled by rumors and knowledge of the behind-the-scenes state of the company that I am truly a fan again. I can count on two hands the number of matches that have returned me to a state of investment in the characters as if they were real. It's a special sort of feeling, and it wasn't thanks to Rollins - this was all due to the natural skill and charisma of Neville.

I have high hopes for the future of Neville; if he goes to New Japan, the sky is truly the limit. Imagine a world where KUSHIDA, Takahashi, Ospreay, Dragon Lee and Neville are the basis of the Junior Heavyweight division. That could be something to see.
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That Seth Rollins match was pretty good, but probably the big thing that convinced me that Neville was more than say Evan Bourne with slightly better execution, was how deranged he got when he lost the Cruiserweight Title. It was a brief little storyline but that the guy could do more than act the generic cocky heel (which he did well enough don't get me wrong) when given the chance was impressive and unexpected to me.

Wish he was in a company that gave a crap.
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#31 - Dave Meltzer Nominated by: JONA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcVskWkWmgM" data-time="

In a way, this is a controversial ranking. I just think the only people who will take real umbrage with it are users for whom I have very little respect in terms of their wrestling opinions or other aspects of their demeanors (Ulti, MWC). My thoughts are scattered here, so forgive what word salad is going to come now.

My experiences with Meltzer have generally been positive. A lot of people focus on his stuttering on the Observer Radio show, and first of all, I think that's extremely unfair and also embarrassingly immature. Meltzer's not an entertainer, so this ranking doesn't take that into account. Meltzer is actually the first wrestling journalist. In an era of "fake news" and lies being presented as truth, Dave has always been clear that his reports come from sources and that they are never set in stone. However, so often, his opinions that he mentions become misrepresented as facts. I think there's a lack of reading for content in the world, and I will venture to be as bold as this: fans of Vince Russo's podcast are not the reading type. They believe what they hear. They want a narrative that fits their worldview. And because the internet is the internet, camps develop across an entire spectrum regarding a man who works as a journalist.

Meltzer is interesting in that the evolution of his style of the years has been completely misconstrued. In the earlier years, he would fill the newsletter with personal opinions during recaps. This seems to have pissed a lot of workers off since it would often involve comedically scathing reviews of shows. I personally don't see anything wrong with it. You could separate the facts from the commentary, and it was a way for him to implement his own voice into his work, something most writers always strive to achieve.

The idea that people hold Meltzer's opinions as sacrosanct is flawed, but a bigger flaw is that Meltzer shouldn't be trusted as a journalist. It's a dangerous road - impugning one's character. What happens is that your own character is then put on trial in cross. And it becomes a world of rumor and innuendo as opposed to a world of fact and opinion.

What I will say is this: I've found Dave's opinions to be good outlets for forming my own opinions. Sometimes I agree with him, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I walk in disagreeing and discover something that might change my opinion. I respect Dave first and foremost as a wrestling historian. His discussions and conversations about wrestling history in conjunction with the various modern news stories often sheds a unique light on those issues. The sense that we can be informed on the present through the past is so often ignored. His breakdown of the death of territories or of WCW is always very astute and interesting to me, and I think he primarily focuses on business decisions, company actions, and not the wrestling itself when it comes to the most divisive issues. I find it refreshing and interesting. And since he's really the only long-tenured wrestling journalist with serious credentials, I really do think that has a certain heft of weight in the industry. I like to find certain markers in industries that I can use as touchstones for what's happening in the world. Meltzer is one of those markers. He's a perfect jumping-off point for the formation of my own opines.
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I am just gonna agree to disagree on Neville.

He's just a talented face awash in a sea of talented faces to me.

As for Meltz, I dont really have an opinion on him because I dont consume his product. I do find the product less enjoyable when I follow the rumor mill but it does seeve a purpose for like 'lol why was cass fired' stuff.
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Yeah I don't really follow Meltzer either so I have no idea where to place him. The type of guy who has a lot of esteem for what he does is pretty far off what I'm looking for in wrestling. I listen to Observer Radio sometimes and find him interesting-- don't really mind the stuttering so much, but I generally only follow that stuff for opinions and reviews (I listen to Bryan & Vinny way more than the Observer) more than caring about rumors

And I'm not the biggest fan of Neville either but he definitely is a cut above your Finn Balors, for me, and I think with booking where he actually mattered he could really ascend to be one of my favorites. Hasn't done it but I'm hopeful it'll happen someday in some fed.
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#30 - Ethan Carter III Nominated by: Mega Mana

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQLRxPM2CDQ" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja489g1vFT0" data-time="

He made it to the Top Twenty! Top Twenty Percent!

Ranking EC3 was a whole lot of trouble. How much does the quality of a match matter in a wrestling character? Because the character of EC3 himself is just phenomenally compelling. For a period of time, he was one of two reasons I watched TNA, but he made it completely worth slogging through the worst era of the X Division ever and a women's division chock full of nothing. EC the Third's ability to sling a mic honestly is better than anyone else in NXT now; he sells his elitist character in a way no one else does, and at the same time, when turned face, he works perfectly. Because arrogance can become playful mischief so quickly under his careful eye. I really don't talk about "looks" too much on this list, but EC3 has the most chiseled body I've seen in the era of "We Might Actually Test People That Aren't Brock Lesnar."

I happened to see him on an indie show not long ago and when he was given opportunity to really go 20 minutes, he seized it and just knocked the match out of the park. What he lacks in the technical aspect of wrestling he seized upon in working the crowd and, most importantly, telling a story. EC3 is one of those rare talents these days that can sell a large storyline with even the smallest opportunities. His promos always seemed sensical to his character and that's because he knew who he was. He really understood what kind of person he is.

I guess this will really seem too high to those normally comment, but in my mind, EC3 is the next top star in WWE. If one guy could get Roman Reigns over as a face, I think it's EC3. He's just that good. In the world of wrestling storytelling, he's the pinnacle of the sports entertainment style.
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What I've seen of EC3 is great but I didn't watch TNA for most of his run there, only catching the beginning of it (basically once TNA was off Spike it was all but off my radar aside from watching spot shows here and there) so I can't fully appreciate. I also don't really watch NXT anymore with any regularity.

On the other hand I have seen some, and he is the kinda guy that I feel like you don't need to see much of his stuff to "get" him since I feel he's relatively consistent and simple to understand as far as appeal goes.

I feel like I probably don't have a problem with the ranking on paper in any case.
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Topic is in trouble trouble trouble trouble trouble trouble trouble trouble
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My literal favorite thing is that his name is a take off on RG3 and he has outlasted RG3 in terms of cultural importance
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Probably no write-ups today. Happy 4th!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbiywExxAQw" data-time="&start=21
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#29 - Hiroshi Tanahashi Nominated by: CybrMonkey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5wnKZetuss" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK8c3olWfyE" data-time="

Making the claim that Tanahashi is a once-in-a-century talent is certainly a statement that should normally come off as the arrogant ramblings of a heel, and yet the Ace (Go Ace!) almost single-handedly pulled New Japan back from the brink of banruptcy. He's certainly get a large weight of evidence in support of the prowess of his ability. In a new era where Okada is the newest moneymaker, Naito is growing to be the man of the people, and Kenny Omega is becoming the international face of the promotion, Tanahashi has carved a new role for himself. He has evolved into a living legend. For years we've heard the comparisons of Tanahashi and John Cena, but there's no reason to consider those negative. Cena served as the draw during a dark age of WWE, and Tanahashi is the man who pulled NJPW out of its own bleak era of near-bankruptcy. In many ways, Tanahashi was a better Cena than Cena.

For me, the key is that he is just utterly, utterly charismatic. He has a winning smile and a babyface attitude that doesn't diminish his character or the pathos and drama of his matches. He gets likability because he has likability. That's why he can be graceful in defeat and stand tall in victory. He's become the brand ambassador of New Japan in a way that none of the current Big 3 are... yet. And that role fits him well.

I also want to mention that he gave Billy Gunn a 4 star match. In 2017. Billy Gunn. The guy is such an underrated hand these days.

Finally, his hair is the best hair in the history of not only wrestling, but also real life human hair.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

I also want to mention that he gave Billy Gunn a 4 star match. In 2017. Billy Gunn. The guy is such an underrated hand these days.

I am so glad you linked this. I'm so watching this later today.
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#28 - Edge Nominated by: ZeroSignal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKHJlGxy8PI" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lu0Bo75NDI" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrjjlXdO39s" data-time="

Right behind Chris Jericho these days sits Edge on the list of "Wrestlers Who Most Seem Like Dads."

I honestly find it difficult to rank Edge. He's been party to so many great WWE moments, whether they involve the superior Christian (and why no one nominated him I'll never know) in TLC matches or the superior Christian in the last great comedy segments in WWE history or the superior Christian in their suprisingly enjoyable WWE Network show. By the way, I'm extremely excited to hear that it's returning sometime this year. But Edge by himself also produced a lot of great, compelling moments. Whether they were outrageous (live sex celebration) or pulse-pounding (Ric Flair TLC match), Edge took every opportunity presented to him and turned them into must-see TV. Even the Miz never really reached the levels of Edge moment-seizing.

The reason Edge is involved in memorable moments is simple: he outworks the writers. Edge has a natural relationship with the audience (something Big Cass never found after he lost Enzo), and it allows him to be earnest as a face, but more importantly, a dastardly heel you love to hate. At the same time, you love to love him as well. As an audience participant, you want to follow Edge on his journey because he's cool. But more importantly, he's not SO cool that you want to derail shows in order to CHEER WHO YOU NORMALLY BOO AND BOO WHO YOU NORMALLY CHEER. That's because Edge can measure an audience and find ways to deliver lines that make them matter. The difference between kazoos and five-second poses and whatever terrible line they've asked face Finn Balor or face Seth Rollins to deliver this week is that additional level of psychology Edge presents. His face contorts in just the right way to deliver the emotions necessary in any situation. In fact, I would argue that Edge was one of the best actors in WWE. Ever.

Of course, he drops in the rankings for having a terrible spear. It seems like over time, Edge has lost his edge when it comes to wrestling. His matches haven't aged well. But I'm always reminded by Meltzer of something important: you can't rate a match from the past as if it's being run in the present. Matches truly only matter when they happen. The workers are trying to get over in the time period in which they are wrestling. So to try and dismiss Edge's skill as a wrestler now is counterintuitive to wrestling. And Edge fit perfectly in his era, so I would argue that in the era of the most sports entertainment-y matches, Edge was a fantastic worker.
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Edge's weakpoint has always been his matches for me. The only matches I love of his are from his Edge and Christian days-- partially because of the superior Christian, partially because being in a tag team probably concealed a lot of his weaknesses, and partially because he wasn't using that gawd awful spear as a finish. I'm not gonna call him a bad wrestler or anything, but I don't think it's necessarily only in hindsight that you can say he wasn't great in the ring.

I do get what you (and Meltzer) are saying though. Like I recently rewatched Jericho vs Benoit's ladder match from Rumble 200... 1? And I was all like "why was this match so highly rated" but I mean the more I think about it the more it was probably because I'm so damn burnt out on ladder spots about 16-17 years after its original broadcast, and in the moment those kinda things were very innovative. But I do think there are a lot of matches out there that are timeless, a lot of matches that were great in the moment but haven't aged well, and a lot of matches that weren't really that good to begin with. Sorting out the latter two is difficult, but I do think a timeless factor to a match makes it better and shouldn't just be discarded either.

It is a shame the superior Christian wasn't nominated though. Just another reason I should've had 10 more nominations.
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Lopen posted...

I do get what you (and Meltzer) are saying though. Like I recently rewatched Jericho vs Benoit's ladder match from Rumble 200... 1? And I was all like "why was this match so highly rated" but I mean the more I think about it the more it was probably because I'm so damn burnt out on ladder spots about 16-17 years after its original broadcast, and in the moment those kinda things were very innovative. But I do think there are a lot of matches out there that are timeless, a lot of matches that were great in the moment but haven't aged well, and a lot of matches that weren't really that good to begin with. Sorting out the latter two is difficult, but I do think a timeless factor to a match makes it better and shouldn't just be discarded either.

I certainly agree that you shouldn't discard that timeless factor. But I also think it's a mistake to throw out an older match because when compared to the matches of the present, it appears not to stack up. The measure of success for a wrestler is the pop in the building and the subsequent draw, in my opinion. So when I look at these Edge matches that feel slightly hokier than, say, an Almas-Gargano match, that doesn't mean they are worse for it.

I do understand the position that Edge's weakpoint is his matches. But, in a lot of ways, Steve Austin's weakpoint was his matches during his peak of success. I do think that, had Edge come up today, he would be a main eventer and also a bit of a better wrestler. The issue is that the style Vince wanted wasn't to the caliber of wrestling I think Edge could have reached.

But yes, the vastly superior Christian would be in serious contention for a Top 10 spot on this list!
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Right. Edge's matches always got a good reaction even if they weren't technical marvels or anything, and I'd easily call him a better wrestler than pretty much anyone on NXT even if he's had less 5* matches or whatever because he was very good at identifying what worked and using it well to rile up the crowd.

Then again I'm a lot less hyped on supposed "great NXT matches" in general than most people are and I'm sure there will be dozens of matches coming out of there that don't stand the test of time... but I digress.

Anyway I'm just saying like, more of Austin's matches hold up better even if he wasn't at his peak in ring, and there are a lot of guys from Edge's era that have more timeless matches, and I don't think that's just a coincidence or anything. I talked about Jericho/Benoit ladder not feeling at all like a 4*+ match watching it in 2017, but you can find many matches from those guys from that era that do feel that way today. Edge having so few timeless matches is probably a symptom of the man as much as the era. In a different era could he have been more? Sure maybe, but on the other hand nothing about the era for example said he should use a janky ass spear.

But I'm not trying to tear the guy down. On the flip side I think what's maybe underappreciated by some about Edge in the ring is less that he's had a lot of great matches, and moreso that he almost never had bad or even mediocre ones. They were always at least somewhat enjoyable to watch. That's something you very rarely see, even among the great wrestlers. Like I can't recall ever feeling like Edge was totally phoning it in. Edge is going to reliably get you that 3-3.5* range match, for better or for worse.
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#27 - Eddie Guerrero Nominated by: Johnbobb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jibrD6TRAZk" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkx-p_JpYyk" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPV-rRdCAv0" data-time="

Am I doing this now? I'm doing this now.

I have very fond memories of Eddie Guerrero as he was one of my favorites when I was younger. Eddie could captivate an audience with his in ring skills and charisma like no other. It's strange to watch back WCW and witness this when, in shoot interviews, certain WCW main eventers like to say he wasn't over. I think his run in the early to mid-2000's really proves otherwise - especially after his "Lie, Cheat, Steal" character really took hold. The gimmick was great and it helped to boost his career to a height that others seem to consider unexpected.

I think Guerrero is a master of timeless matches. Guerrero had many classics wherever he went, whether it be to ECW, to WCW, or to the WWE. I recall so many phenomenal bouts like his last ECW match that he had with Malenko. Probably his greatest match at Halloween Havoc 97 with Rey Mysterio. I actually watched it for the first time with JONA, and I really was blown away watching it; I don't think a cruiserweight match has ever really been that good before or since. Of course, you've also got his match with Brock Lesnar. I know the match itself wasn't the greatest but Eddie played the perfect underdog to Brock's beast and defeating Brock for the Undisputed Championship was such a feel good moment.

Eddie's death is naturally one of the sadder days in wrestling history, and the subsequent commercialization of such a tragedy is beyond appalling. I'd rather not discuss it, but I will say that it's too bad Eddie felt he needed to be massive in order to succeed. He wasn't wrong, but he shouldn't have been right. That young Eddie Guerrero was phenomenal at his size, truly something special to see. But regardless of the era, Eddie's wry smile and crisp moves made him one of the level best in the history of the sport.
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Kinda surprised he dropped this early. I don't even necessarily disagree with the ballpark, but it's kinda surprising.

For me he's kinda like bizarro Rey Mysterio-- a guy who I didn't appreciate as much as he probably deserved in WCW (he was fine but never a favorite of mine even if he maybe should have been) but only got better and better and I end up liking him quite a bit after all his WWE work. Lie Cheat and Steal legendary gimmick.
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#26 - Dan Lambert Nominated by: JONA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq820W3YdRI" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD4AlBQFMXc" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5QmNNpH_t0" data-time="

Kurt Angle is the person who took to wrestling faster than anyone else. Dan Lambert is the person who took to managing faster than anyone else. For, truly, I've never seen someone come in and be as immediately compelling purely in a management role as Dan Lambert's brief but brilliant run in Impact.

Lambert had the ability to channel his legitimacy in the realm of MMA into a mocking derision of both the fake and staged wrestlers and the stupid fans who would buy into the worked matches they watched. By being so utterly arrogant, so holier-than-thou, he gave Bobby Lashley a fresh coat of paint and made his presence felt in Impact. Lambert's attitude was enhanced by his voice which was JUST annoying enough to be a heel without being so annoying that you wanted to turn off his mic. He also cut deep in his promos. He wasn't overboard, he didn't choose to be cartoonish or outrageous. What most impressed me about Lambert is he was that great Flair/Austin "Turn Yourself to 11" style of talker. You can tell when someone not only has a passion for the business and his willing to put in the effort as a character, but they also believe (at least a little bit) in the character they play. They embody it. For me, Dan Lambert reaches the Heyman level of promo skill but in a different way.

Despite a lack of much experience in wrestling, I now hold Lambert as my benchmark for non-wrestler promo success. And that says a lot for his ability, his presence and my desire to see him to return to wrestling. Could you imagine Lashley facing Lesnar with two fantastic promos battling back and forth? With Heyman being allowed to shape his own storylines in WWE, I think it could be a sight to see.
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Rankings So Far:

150. Jenna Morasca
149. Ashley Massaro
148. The Great Khali
147. Krissy Vaine
146. The Final Solution
145. Rhaka Khan
144. Dave Crist
143. Rosa Mendes
142. Jackie Gayda
141. Matt Taven
140. Jinder Mahal
139. Heidenreich
138. Bryan Alvarez
137. Enzo Amore
136. Dan Matha
135. The Boogeyman
134. Vladimir Kozlov
133. Santino Marella
132. Glacier
131. Muhammad Hassan
130. Torrie Wilson
129. James Ellsworth
128. Nikki Bella
127. Jay White
126. The Shockmaster
125. Hornswoggle
124. Kevin Sullivan
123. Steve Blackman
122. Barry Darsow
121. Taylor Wilde
120. Ronda Rousey
119. Bob Holly
118. Chris Kanyon
117. Vickie Guerrero
116. Chase Owens
115. Disco Inferno
114. Sasha Banks
113. MVP
112. Buff Bagwell
111. The Big Boss Man
110. Heath Slater
109. Scott Norton
108. Charlotte Flair
107. Timothy Thatcher
106. Rich Swann
105. Goldust
104. Matt Sydal
103. Kane
102. Bayley
101. Tommaso Ciampa
100. Tyler Bate
99. Taichi
98. Mark Henry
97. Terry Gordy
96. Booker T
95. Vampiro
94. Ron Simmons
93. Dusty Rhodes
92. Dynamite Kid
91. Road Warrior Hawk
90. Raven
89. Alex Wright
88. SANADA
87. WALTER
86. Lou Thesz
85. Hirooki Goto
84. Chuck Taylor
83. Juice Robinson
82. Andre the Giant
81. Maria Kanellis
80. Hayabusa
79. Josh Mathews
78. Jacques Rougeau
77. Toru Yano
76. Triple H
75. Braun Strowman
74. Kevin Nash
73. Sid Vicious
72. EVIL
71. Perry Saturn
70. Daffney
69. Awesome Kong
68. Trish Stratus
67. Miz
66. Terry Funk
65. Kota Ibushi
64. Seth Rollins
63. Bruiser Brody
62. Billy Graham
61. Naomichi Marufuji
60. Brock Lesnar
59. Roderick Strong
58. Undertaker
57. AJ Lee
56. Kairi Sane
55. Chavo Guerrero
54. Randy Savage
53. Ultimo Dragon
52. John Cena
51. Hulk Hogan
50. Shawn Michaels
49. Jeff Hardy
48. Big Show
47. Rey Mysterio
46. Shinsuke Nakamura
45. Kurt Angle
44. Mickie James
43. Mick Foley
42. Jesse Ventura
41. Daniel Bryan
40. Scott Steiner
39. Finn Balor
38. KUSHIDA
37. Mister Perfect
36. Pentagon
35. Hurricane
34. Kazuchika Okada
33. CM Punk
32. Neville
31. Dave Meltzer
30. Ethan Carter III
29. Hiroshi Tanahashi
28. Edge
27. Eddie Guerrero
26. Dan Lambert

Remaining Wrestlers:

AJ Styles (Mega Mana)
Arn Anderson (Eddv)
Asuka (Snake)
Becky Lynch (Inviso)
Bobby Heenan (Eddv)
Bret Hart (ZeroSignal)
Brian Pillman (JONA)
Chris Jericho (Inviso)
Dean Malenko (GOGZero)
Diamond Dallas Page (JONA)
Eric Bischoff (Lopen)
Hiromu Takahashi (CybrMonkey)
Jake Roberts (Snake)
Jushin Liger (Snake)
Kenny Omega (CybrMonkey)
Lex Luger (Tom Bombadil)
Matt Hardy (Johnbobb)
Minoru Suzuki (CybrMonkey)
Ric Flair (Inviso)
Steve Austin (trdl)
Ted DiBiase (JONA)
Tetsuya Naito (CybrMonkey)
Tomohiro Ishii (JONA)
Will Ospreay (CybrMonkey)
William Regal (IHateThisCPU)

The Remaining Nominations by User:
CybrMonkey - 5
Eddv - 2
GOGZero - 1
IHateThisCPU - 1
Inviso - 3
Johnbobb - 1
JONA - 4
Lopen - 1
Mega Mana - 1
Snake - 3
Tom Bombadil - 1
trdl - 1
ZeroSignal - 1
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What do you guys think of our remaining 25 contestants? Predictions?
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I try not to be too hard on guys I dunno but I am still pretty sad that some random TNA dude is ahead of Eddie :\
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Tom Bombadil posted...

I try not to be too hard on guys I dunno but I am still pretty sad that some random TNA dude is ahead of Eddie :\

He was legit my favorite guy on the mic in 2017! Admittedly, I'm more willing to be subjective on lists like this than some people while still factoring more objective metrics.
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Yeah Lambert was one of my 'this is just a scarlet special' things when I noticed he had made the top 50 even.
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I think I really only have 3 very specifically "scarlet" things in the Top 50. At least, I don't think there are more than 3 that, by being in the top 50, engender controversy.
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The only other one in that category left is Becky.

I love her too but come on mate over Eddie?
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Well I'm about as convinced as I can be on Dan Lambert from 3 videos as I didn't watch much of any TNA when he was active. He seems pretty good. The first video in particular impressed me as he managed to talk 5 minutes while being interesting the whole time. Good managers are definitely an undervalued thing nowadays.

Probably not nearly this high for me but I at least won't rag on you for it like I have for certain other "why is this so high" entries. Benefit of a doubt earned at least. Frankly Becky Lynch is probably more out of place than he is for me. And I like Becky Lynch.
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