Board 8 > Scarlet Ranks 150 User-Nominated Wrestlers Part II

(+) Yeah! (+)

^5 Eddv
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Eddv posted...

The only other one in that category left is Becky.

You're missing a certain Luger
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No, I saw Luger.

Luger is awesome.
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Luger gets a bad rap. I'll save my rambling commentary on him for when he comes up but I won't dis a high ranking for Luger... well, depending on how high he goes I guess.
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We must be the only three Luger fans on the board then.
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*clears throat*
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Four!

Wow, we could storm APWT with Luger talk then.
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If you weren't into the Lex Express you werent alive.
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The only things I know about Luger is that his t-shirts were too tight and he's one of the biggest legends-stars ever in this GAH!
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Gah!
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I don't know anything about Lex Luger other than he's old.

there's a surprising amount of top 25ers left I don't even recognize

and I'll be honest, I'm even more surprised Matt Hardy ended up being my highest nomination, especially over Mysterio and Guerrero
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I'm pretty surprised my highest nomination is Eric Bischoff

Though speaking honestly he very well could be my favorite of my list but it's rare to find big fans of his
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Everyone left on the list is terrible and sucky and you should be ashamed of liking them

Also who is left I have no clue

This is a joke post in case you somehow didn't notice
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#25 - Tetsuya Naito Nominated by: CybrMonkey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9xBzz2XTKY" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JLUf2dA50Q" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7S_GD3ClRM" data-time="

Don't think of this as "Look how low Scarlet placed Naito." Think of this as "Look how well Naito did against a bunch of Scarlet's favorites."

Over the last year or so this guy has totally won me over, and I certainly consider him one of the current best in the world. He doesn't have great matches as frequently as Okada, Ishii, or Omega, but his LIJ character is fantastic and he absolutely delivers in all his big matches. It's funny that his character is cenetred opposite Okada, as Naito is the counter-culture to the NJPW 'system' Okada represents, yet Naito and Okada share similar traits that make me love both of them. Naito also was much more of an NJPW, groomed almost to the point where the crowd might have permanently rejected him a la Roman Reigns. They both have some sort of facade as a defense mechanism, where hiding their true feelings is protection tactically and personally. Once pushed to the limit, they will reveal those feelings however, and show that despite their shenanigans they really do care about NJPW and wrestling.

That's Naito's deal. He was once the vanilla babyface who never won over the fans, then he kayfabe revolted against the company (probably working off of genuine annoyance there), making everyone hate him more, but then his entertaining act grew on everyone and he became a mega anti-hero. For years Naito has acted as a heel, but he's so entertaining and so athletically gifted that the fans can't help but cheer for him (especially when he sells his opponents' offence like death). And when he unites with guys like Takahashi, he actually comes across as a surprisingly supportive leader and friend. I think it's clear after the psychology in his G1 final match against Omega and face-off with Jericho that Naito is rightfully heading the way of a pure babyface anti-hero very soon. His badass persona with the hidden layer of someone who is desperate to impress people and prove his worth makes for a fantastic wrestler.
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Naito is so cool. I wish I'd followed his career but I appreciate him enough just as a cool dude without being intimately familiar with his backstory. Definitely one of my favorites from NJPW.
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You might actually like him more without his awkward earlier years in NJPW.
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#24 - Matt Hardy Nominated by: Johnbobb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heZBV167ZM8" data-time="

Words that describe Matt Hardy: Reinvented. Creative. Adaptive.

I could talk about the fantastic if short-lived V1 era of Matt Hardy or how he took a life spiraling out of control thanks to drugs and turned it all around. And honestly, I can't recommend the Hardy episode of WWE 24 highly enough. But all I really want to do is present, without commentary, the Broken Universe as all the reason I need for proof that Matt Hardy deserves the #24 spot on this list:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBCU8wELJAA" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSQsS6P8kvc" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeWEMKMV1Ko" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfazOnqXlCk" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA_edD2B3hU" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrkkjeODbIc" data-time="
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I think I actually liked V1 Hardy more than Broken Hardy so I'm glad you at least gave it a brief shoutout.

They're both amazing, though, don't get me wrong.
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#23 - Will Ospreay Nominated by: CybrMonkey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e29CryGmQSE" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrqqaUMPYFg" data-time="

After being a fan favourite for nearly three years, Ospreay has finally gotten the push that he deserves in New Japan. He won the BOSJ in his first year and was the runner-up in his second, but he never got the prestigious IWGP Junior Heavyweight title. That all changed when he broke his losing streak against Kushida near the end of 2017; since then he's been on a great tear in New Japan. Sadly one streak he couldn't overcome was the Scurll streak. Was his short month reign a signal that NJPW would never push him at a high level? It turns out that wasn't the case, as he instead defeated the top three juniors in the company to regain the title at WK12, and since then he has also beaten Hiromu and Scurll 1-on-1 before eventually dropping the title. Now THIS is the sort of push I wanted to see.

Ospreay has honestly been one of the greatest wrestlers in the world for a long time now. His matches against Ricochet, Scurll, Hiromu, and Kushida will be remembered as part and parcel with the greatest era in the history of Japanese wrestling; hell even his match Vader was a certain kind of special. He has totally recreated what it means to be a high flyer. That sadly means that he has pushed himself into taking stupid risks, but nevertheless he has still created an entirely compelling style. His real-time and long-term selling can occasionally be an issue, but when he sells well he sells REALLY well. This guy is absolutely flawless in the ring. I'm sure he's made botches before, but in big matches I have yet to see a single one. The athletic feats he performs are awe-inspiring. I'm of course worried that his style will lead into an early retirement, but he'll still retire as a total legend.

The only real reason he ranks below other wrestlers is because he dressed up as Barney for WK12.
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Sorry I don't really have anything to say about Ospreay I have to break the trend of commenting on literally all the things.

But yet I must bump
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Thank you for bumping. I don't work Tuesdays normally and I have a kind of vacation going on this week, so write-ups might be sparse.
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nice
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enjoy the kind of vacation
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Went to Six Flags today!
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Today is my last day of vacay
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aww
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I appear to have one coming up m'self
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#22 - Jushin 'THUNDER' Liger Nominated by: Snake

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd83BKjhio8" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gS2nSn42Ag" data-time="

Jushin Thunder Liger is probably the most unique talent to be ranked on this list. He was never a world champion, and unlike some of the other talents on this list who never became world champion, like Ted DiBiase, Liger never even came close. In addition, he was never really valued as a main event star, always having great mid-card matches but never main eventing that many major shows like all of his Japanese contemporaries did during the boom periods of wrestling in that country. However, with all of that being said, is there any doubt that Liger is one of the top wrestlers of the last 50 years? Would anyone deny the claim that he is one of the most exciting and skilled performers in wrestling history? Could you even begin to tell the history of professional wrestling over the last thirty years and not mention Liger? The answer to all of those questions is no, and despite his lack of world championship success, Liger is probably the most inspirational wrestler of the last three decades.

Liger's contribution to actual in-ring action cannot be underestimated. Not only was he a tremendous athlete capable of doing breath-taking aerial maneuvers, but his skilled amateur background made him one of the well-rounded workers of his generation. While he wasn't the originator of coming off of the top rope, he combined those moves with great technical wrestling. Liger's colorful persona and immense talent allowed him to get over in other markets outside of Japan. Not only was he a huge star in Mexico, but ask any casual wrestling fan to name a Japanese wrestler, chances are if they know one, it will be Liger.

Currently, there is a great group of high-flyers wrestling all over the world as wrestling continues to get faster and more athletic. Liger, along with some other influential wrestlers, has had a greater impact on wrestlers around the world, than probably any other wrestler since 1980. Anytime you see someone do a hurrancanrana off of the top rope, or someone do a shooting star press, that is Liger's influence reigning supreme over a wrestling match. Maybe he wasn't a world champion but Liger was certainly one of the most important figures in professional wrestling history.
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#21 - Becky Lynch Nominated by: Inviso

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muQQk3Qoxlk" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N2SB_nVAZ8" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFnBQncJn64" data-time="

This will get a lot of blowback, but in terms of pure babyfaces, there are two who are best in the world simply at being babyface: Juice Robinson and Becky Lynch. I'm not talking about their wrestling styles (although I think both work extremely well and are oft-overlooked in that regard). I'm speaking primarily of the ability to generate the sort of charisma necessary for a crowd to get behind them.

To me, Becky is the sort of Irish character that Vince has always wanted but never figured out how to make. His brand of machismo and bravado trumps the vulnerability that makes someone like Johnny Gargano get over with the crowd. Triple H actually sees that vulnerability as a strength of character and not a weakness. Vince sees any sort of socialization or kindness as tantamount to stupidity, so therefore the character should be killed for being human.

In a women's division, however, Vince doesn't see machismo as valuable. Instead, women can actually have a certain quality of kindness, and Becky is a natural at it. She demonstrates a team mentality in and out of the ring, and her overall appearance is one of love for her craft. That's so rare to find - genuine kindness. WWE manufactures it so much that it doesn't have that organic quality that Becky has. Therefore, I find it so easy to get behind her and root for her.

Beckster also is my brand of humor. I know a lot of people on this board hate her puns and things of that nature, but Becky's jokes are far and away better than the Vince fecal humor (portajohns and shit dropping from the ceiling) because they get her over in a way no one else thinks of trying. Shitty Seth Rollins scripted lines (Sparkle Crotch) do nothing to ingratiate him with me when you have Becky constantly making her own momentum with amusing and brief comedy spots like quinoa. I just prefer that brand of humor in a babyface. It demonstrates that she isn't stupid; she has a quick wit. Her flaw is that she's too trusting, and I can live with that in the same way I lived with that in Sting during his entire WCW run.

Becky is, honestly, Sting. And that's a real compliment.
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Liger's awesome. I think the biggest underrated thing about Liger is his charisma, and that he showed so much of it while being masked. Not saying you didn't give him his props for that, but in general I'm not sure people do. I've watched old Japanese wrestling with friends who aren't really into it, and they all instantly find themselves rooting for Liger over anyone on the show, even the Chris Benoit types they're more familiar with.

As for Becky...

I've kinda soured on her over time. While it is easy to just blame the booking, it's also partially her promos and partially her presentation. The problem is she wants to be taken seriously, yet I can't possibly take her seriously when she never wins for any sustained period of time or in any high leverage situations. She basically comes off as a blowhard, which is what you don't want a character like Becky who's supposed to be a lovable babyface to come off as. I'm not saying she even necessarily needs to be booked as a huge threat, but she needs adjust her promo style and character a bit to address this dissonance between how she acts and what she achieves. Compare her to say, Bayley, and I feel Bayley comes off as a lot more humble even while believing in herself, which plays to her position on the card in a more realistic way, despite being a lot more of a goober than Becky.

All that being said she's good and I don't disagree with what you like about her, but I do feel like you've given her more of a pass for "potential" vs what she's actually done than you have a lot of the lower ranked people on the list. So more than a little overrated on this list to be sure but I do at least like her so I won't rip into it too hard.
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The Juice getting a high tier name drop!

Anyway yeah bex is great, we need more.
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I think your complaints are the booking primarily and I do tend to give potential a big piece of this ranking. Bayley comes off as a submissive loser and Becky comes off as confident and hardworking.
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My complaints can be fixed by different booking

But in the absence of different booking there are ways to fix it on the character end

I just don't think Becky does that and I can't 100% blame the booking for it
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Keep in mind I'm not saying Becky should become Bayley. Bayley's too far in the other direction.

Becky basically says "I am going to win, yeahhhh!" -- this makes her come off as delusional because how often does this actually happen.
Bayley basically says "Uhhh... I can win" -- which yeah, more realistic, but goober mode.

Something more like a Heath Slater type is where you want to go.

Slater basically says "I am going to FIGHT, yeahhhh!" which is exactly where Becky should be imo. It's a subtle difference but one I think would make a ton of difference for how likable her character is, and one I think could be done without "disobeying the script" or whatever. A bit less outright confidence of victory displayed, but with more BURNING PASSION to compensate for the fact that you may not necessarily be favored to win.
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#20 - Dean Malenko Nominated by: GOGZero

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i25Wu9fDYRg" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_klUn3g2XE" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-njO37uP1o" data-time="

If you know me, you know my favorite era of wrestling is WCW 1995-1998. So include that bias if you want in the rest of this write-up.

When I look at the supremely successful WCW, I see a lot of characters that are larger-than-life, grandiose, cartoonish in some respects, but all of them clearly dialed up to 11. Then I look at Dean Malenko, the soft-spoken but brutal cruiserweight, and I actually see one of the most singularly realistic characters in wrestling history. While many people looked at Dean at the time as a boring promo, I saw a character that really demonstrated a realistic approach to wrestling. Dean was a guy with the drive and ambition to be king of a division. He consistently made his goals clear - he wanted to be the top guy in at least some respect, and he his robotic, mechanical presence actually was a far cry from the brighter, more colorful guys in the ring. This made him utterly, utterly unique.

So many times these days I hear people putting a huge premium on promos. But in WCW, you had two hours for 30 plus guys to wrestle and/or cut promos, leaving very short windows to get your point across. I always thought that Dean's character worked perfectly in a world where you had two minutes on the mic or 7 minutes in the ring. And that's the sort of pacing that works best on television. Dean had a wide array of moves that looked and felt real and yet also were entertaining. How would Mysterio escape Malenko's holds? Dean had a strong physique and a no-nonsense approach that made it feel like your favorite guy was wrestling an unrepentant cyborg.

Over time, however, Dean actually developed out of being a heel. His consistency was the key. Here was a guy that fans could rely on for great matches. And over time, his cold attitude actually become welcome. You knew it wasn't from a place of malice. So when worse and worse attitudes entered the division, you hearkened back to the guy that had no frills or flairs and just wanted to be the best he could be. You came to respect it because Dean Malenko's goals weren't counterintuitive to the audience. Unlike Syxx who refused to defend the title except in the most unfair of circumstances, Dean took all comers. And once Jericho rose to prominence, the wonderful added wrinkle of Dean's father came into play.

Jericho and Malenko is an example of a perfect feud. I know that's a dangerous statement to make, but it's absolutely true. Malenko was generous enough to allow Jericho to tear apart his family at a particularly tough juncture, and Jericho saw what made Malenko work. Malenko was placed in an emotional crux but eventually remembered that he had to fight those emotions down in order to be the wrestler he was. And when you look at the rest of his run, it's always about putting aside the heart for the head. It's actually a fairly unique story in the history of wrestling. Jericho just happened to help highlight it the best, making Dean's return after his father's death really feel like it meant something.

I know that there is a lot of "you ranked this guy too highly" floating around in people's minds, and that's why I wanted to concentrate on the personality aspect of Dean that is so often ignored because, in its era, it was just not recognized. He also, you know, wrestled. And I've really never seen a guy as crisp and perfect in the role of a cruiserweight. I can't rave enough at how his moves just felt really every time you watched them. Sure, he didn't have the heights of flippery that we think of fondly from cruiserweights, but he had a gravity that the rest sorely lack. And it was that gravity that made him stand out.
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Dean Malenko is awesome you'll get no disrespect here. He is the biggest guy to me (other one being Lance Storm) that people will often refer to in the "vanilla midget" discussions that I couldn't disagree with more. And keep in mind I am someone who can and will hate on vanilla midgets when I think it applies.

Cause yeah like you said that intensity was a character. His uniquely brutal and efficient looking wrestling style was a character. You don't need amazing mic skills if you're just cutting a 70 second promo-- you just need to come off as believable. And he did do that better than most-- I would put his promos as much better than Chris Benoit's for example despite at their heart being similar characters.
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Lopen posted...

Dean Malenko is awesome you'll get no disrespect here.

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Lopen posted...

I would put his promos as much better than Chris Benoit's for example despite at their heart being similar characters.

Completely agree. I think part of it was gimmick positioning in that Malenko was this Iceman and Benoit was a "killer". He also was positioned as a Horseman and, while I think that's not bad in theory, it was bad in practice. It needed to be a different kind of Horsemen. I always thought that a Horsemen made up of guys handpicked by Arn would be less frills, more kills. Benoit would have fit in with that. But trying to make him a wining, dining jet setter just didn't work.
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#19 - Hiromu Takahashi Nominated by: CybrMonkey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekWIJYLiBi0" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plv0eZ8BOw8" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW8eQRdqV0s" data-time="

God, Hiromu is a fantastic wrestler. But his style is kind of a pain in the neck.

I didn't really like Hiromu when he was in Ring of Honor, but my opinion was drastically altered when he began in New Japan. Unlike Jay White, who I just have a really hard time caring about, Takahashi has left an utterly indelible impression ingrained in my mind. I hate to say it but the Ticking Time Bomb is the kind of wrestler you better enjoy while you can. His absurdly risky daredevil antics make a career the length of, say, Chris Jerichos or Yuji Nagatas seem very unlikely. This is a guy whos made a regular habit of doing hurricanranas over the top rope, out of the ring and onto the floor outside. As New Japans IWGP Junior Heavyweight Champion, the former Kamaitachi has had maybe more great matches in 2017 and 2018 than anyone other than Okada and Omega. His fantastic Wrestle Kingdom 11 match with Kushida was followed by so many fantastic matches that I can barely keep track.

And despite his daredevil style, it's his character which I love the most. How do I describe the beauty that is Takahashi, the almost childlike innocence personified in the red-headed man. Takahashi, who would talk to the belt whenever Naito held it up. Takahashi, who turned a stuffed cat into one of the best side characters in the history of wrestling. Takahashi, who caused the crowd to cry when his stuffed toy named Darryl was ripped apart by a ignorant brute. Takahashi who got over a Darryl Jr. with crowd somehow. It's amazing what his wide-eyed naivete mixed with his evil, crazy-eyed wrestling style combines to create.

Takahashi might explode at any minute, but until that happens he might be the most thrilling wrestler in the business.
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Punching these things out quickly. I like.

Looking forward to that top 10.
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Wedge Antilles posted...

Punching these things out quickly. I like.

Looking forward to that top 10.

I felt bad about the vacation slowing me to even more of a crawl than normal, and Monday is a super-light day at the store!
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#18 - Robert "The Brain" Heenan Nominated by: Eddv

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4IoFIPkPvY" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cPbzEcYQ6k" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jVRs0t-X4c" data-time="

Bobby is the greatest color commentator in history because, if for nothing else, of the Royal Rumble in 1992. Heenan's character had one of the strongest senses of character internal logic and continuity of any commentator in wrestling history, and quite honestly, everyone today could learn from him. Heenan was able to weave a line of getting himself over as a fun character while also getting over the talent. Heenan also perfected the art of being the second commentator in a way no one else ever has.

In recent days, I've become less and less enamored with Corey Graves because he doesn't really provide any insight into the characters in front of him. In fact, he makes them less interesting. Inversely, Heenan was the perfect choice to be on commentary with Hulk Hogan in the ring, for example. No matter what Hogan did, Heenan saw it as blasphemous, utterly and completely immoral, virtually repugnant. But he almost always followed it with some sort of logic. Part of this is because the egos of Vince and Hulk saw the behavior Hulk displayed as good, and the rest of the world looks back at it as tantrum-throwing narcissism. Then here is Heenan saying exactly what you're thinking. But because Heenan is so damn good at being bad, you can't believe him. Heenan's character would harass and harangue people based on race, size, looks, and intelligence to such a degree that you just didn't want to believe him when he was right.

What's interesting is that Heenan maintained his consistency when all of wrestling flip-flopped. When Hogan turned heel in WCW, Heenan maintained his character personally. Somehow, Heenan was still a heel commentator and yet he just utterly hated Hogan for turning on WCW. This contributed immensely in making the NWO come across as a force behind normal heel antics. They were a real, shoot group of bad guys. This wasn't wrestling anymore; this was survival. In reality, Heenan was maintaining the same view he always presented in regards to Hogan, and yet his self-serving position now lined up with the good guys. And when you can unite Professor X and Magneto against the same threat, you know that threat is something special. Heenan continued to rant against the Hulkster-turned-Hollywood and that line of continuity really created something special in WCW.

But I do want to end this discussion with the '92 Rumble. Heenan is tasked with giving an hour of commentary on top of Ric Flair's run through the entire roster, and Flair ends up coming off like the biggest superstar ever thanks to Heenan. Every entrant is a threat to Flair, Flair is just being murdered, no one seems to care, this is NOT FAIR TO FLAIR. Poor Ric Flair, the cocky, arrogant out-of-towner, now he's being subjected to the hate of an entire roster. Why was he forced to draw #3 in a Rumble? How can each person come in and beat him like this? Don't they know who this is? Ric was supposed to win the title tonight, this is an outrage! I've never before or since (aside from JR's unhealthy love for Austin) seen a worker given so much setup by a commentator. And we should demand this from announcers. Sadly, Bobby Heenans are just few and far between.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

I've never before or since (aside from JR's unhealthy love for Austin) seen a worker given so much setup by a commentator. And we should demand this from announcers

please be careful what you wish for before we get another Cole/Miz
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Cole/Miz wasn't good setup for Miz. But it's a two-way street in that someone has to be good on commentary in order to get the other person over to the extent Heenan does with Flair.
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Yeah Corey Graves is pretty much an idiot's interpretation of Heenan most of the time. Heenan you always could buy as a commentator because as you said there's a consistency and a logic (of a man with no scruples, so it was easy to disagree even if he was technically right) behind everything he said.

Corey Graves is just a mindless shill for all the heels that has gotten more blatant about it over time. He just regurgitates catchphrases and praises everything they do without any in match/situation justification given. His version of Hulk Hogan is Sasha Banks which is a good analog to the relative ability of the commentators. Not sure we'll ever have a 1992 Rumble moment with any announcer ever again, but I sure hope we do.
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I still think the 92 Rumble might be my favorite match ever. Certainly my favorite gimmick match, and certainly the funnest match I've ever seen.
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Whats amazing to me about henan is that he didnt want to be a commentator.

If he didnt end up developing back issues he would have stayed a manager and that would have been tragic.

He was a great manager, but a LEGENDARY commentator.
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I didn't know that.
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Edge is going to win. :)