Board 8 > Scarlet Ranks 150 User-Nominated Wrestlers Part II

(+) Yeah! (+)

Suzuki is a master of his style for sure.

There's a lot of New Japan that isnt for me and he basically personifies it but....hes still very good.
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Minoru Suzuki is a guy that despite really liking the few matches of his I've watched, I'm never driven to go out of my way to watch more of him in particular. Not sure why that is.
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Suzuki is also a master of comedy, honestly.
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#11 - Kenny Omega Nominated by: CybrMonkey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk0EnBJP_2c" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rezUO7ACb4" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEyyXfd2aGo" data-time="

Is Kenny Omega the best in the world? At the moment, I'd rank him in the top 3 or 4. All-time, objectively, he has the potential. But he's never reached a favorite status for me. He's reached a jaw-dropping awe-inspiring level of wrestling clinician, however. He does so many little things to make a match meaningful. He has an eye for detail. His style gives just a little bit of added realism while at the same time overacting JUST ENOUGH so that emotions are palpable enough without being goofy and unbelievable. It's a fine line to walk. I've always placed a premium on two things in matches: selling a story and selling it as a reality. Following that, doing something memorable is the third most important aspect of a match for me. Kenny does all three of these things at such a high level that it really leaves everyone else in the world in the dust right now. I would say that there are guys who do the memorable aspect better than Kenny, and I'd say there are guys who make a match feel more real than Kenny, but no one sells a story in a match like Kenny. And that's crucial. I watch wrestling for the narratives it weaves, and Kenny is the ultimate storyteller.

One thing that detracts from Kenny for me is his out-of-character personality. I think I run into too many interviews where he is just dull, soft-spoken and not my cup of tea. I look at someone like Cody on the flip side, a worker who is super-engaging and just makes me more interested in watching him. But that's just a minor complaint. The thing is, minor complaints really, really matter at this point. We're almost at the top ten, you and I, and every little distinction I can make is going to prove important.

Omega's matches are always consistently better than anyone else on Earth, but essentially, it's his non-wrestling personality that kicks him out of the Top 10. At some point, I imagine I will bump him into an elite top spot given the insane pedigree of matches he's accruing. Until that point, however, he'll have to be satisfied knowing that I just think of him as almost perfection.
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Rankings So Far:

150. Jenna Morasca
149. Ashley Massaro
148. The Great Khali
147. Krissy Vaine
146. The Final Solution
145. Rhaka Khan
144. Dave Crist
143. Rosa Mendes
142. Jackie Gayda
141. Matt Taven
140. Jinder Mahal
139. Heidenreich
138. Bryan Alvarez
137. Enzo Amore
136. Dan Matha
135. The Boogeyman
134. Vladimir Kozlov
133. Santino Marella
132. Glacier
131. Muhammad Hassan
130. Torrie Wilson
129. James Ellsworth
128. Nikki Bella
127. Jay White
126. The Shockmaster
125. Hornswoggle
124. Kevin Sullivan
123. Steve Blackman
122. Barry Darsow
121. Taylor Wilde
120. Ronda Rousey
119. Bob Holly
118. Chris Kanyon
117. Vickie Guerrero
116. Chase Owens
115. Disco Inferno
114. Sasha Banks
113. MVP
112. Buff Bagwell
111. The Big Boss Man
110. Heath Slater
109. Scott Norton
108. Charlotte Flair
107. Timothy Thatcher
106. Rich Swann
105. Goldust
104. Matt Sydal
103. Kane
102. Bayley
101. Tommaso Ciampa
100. Tyler Bate
99. Taichi
98. Mark Henry
97. Terry Gordy
96. Booker T
95. Vampiro
94. Ron Simmons
93. Dusty Rhodes
92. Dynamite Kid
91. Road Warrior Hawk
90. Raven
89. Alex Wright
88. SANADA
87. WALTER
86. Lou Thesz
85. Hirooki Goto
84. Chuck Taylor
83. Juice Robinson
82. Andre the Giant
81. Maria Kanellis
80. Hayabusa
79. Josh Mathews
78. Jacques Rougeau
77. Toru Yano
76. Triple H
75. Braun Strowman
74. Kevin Nash
73. Sid Vicious
72. EVIL
71. Perry Saturn
70. Daffney
69. Awesome Kong
68. Trish Stratus
67. Miz
66. Terry Funk
65. Kota Ibushi
64. Seth Rollins
63. Bruiser Brody
62. Billy Graham
61. Naomichi Marufuji
60. Brock Lesnar
59. Roderick Strong
58. Undertaker
57. AJ Lee
56. Kairi Sane
55. Chavo Guerrero
54. Randy Savage
53. Ultimo Dragon
52. John Cena
51. Hulk Hogan
50. Shawn Michaels
49. Jeff Hardy
48. Big Show
47. Rey Mysterio
46. Shinsuke Nakamura
45. Kurt Angle
44. Mickie James
43. Mick Foley
42. Jesse Ventura
41. Daniel Bryan
40. Scott Steiner
39. Finn Balor
38. KUSHIDA
37. Mister Perfect
36. Pentagon
35. Hurricane
34. Kazuchika Okada
33. CM Punk
32. Neville
31. Dave Meltzer
30. Ethan Carter III
29. Hiroshi Tanahashi
28. Edge
27. Eddie Guerrero
26. Dan Lambert
25. Tetsuya Naito
24. Matt Hardy
23. Will Ospreay
22. Jushin Liger
21. Becky Lynch
20. Dean Malenko
19. Hiromu Takahashi
18. Bobby Heenan
17. Bret Hart
16. William Regal
15. Eric Bischoff
14. Asuka
13. Lex Luger
12. Minoru Suzuki
11. Kenny Omega

Remaining Wrestlers:

AJ Styles (Mega Mana)
Arn Anderson (Eddv)
Brian Pillman (JONA)
Chris Jericho (Inviso)
Diamond Dallas Page (JONA)
Jake Roberts (Snake)
Ric Flair (Inviso)
Steve Austin (trdl)
Ted DiBiase (JONA)
Tomohiro Ishii (JONA)

The Remaining Nominations by User:
Eddv - 1
Inviso - 1
JONA - 4
Mega Mana - 1
Snake - 1
trdl - 1
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Lotsa horsemen left on there.
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3 of the 4 Horsemen in 1995, actually. Just noticed that.

Also, 9 of the 10 guys left worked WCW.
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Very little overlap between my top 10 (from this list) and yours but a solid top 10 nonetheless. Only two guys remaining I never really saw much appeal for and I've long since accepted it's more me not clicking than them not having that appeal.

Also I really need to watch Kenny Omega's matches. Like, any of them. There's no real reason for it as much as the majority of my NJPW viewing has been from 2014-2015 which was before he was a big thing.
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#10 - Steve Austin Nominated by: trdl

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu6_UBgExeI" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1ofD2jyBcA" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzUUVKai0Sk" data-time="

The ultimate guardian of the DDT, Steve Austin is the man who turned me from a WCW fan to a WWE fan back in the day, and I still regard almost all of his segments on WWE TV fondly. Combine that with an extremely underrated WCW run, and you have a career that for personal purposes naturally ranks highly for me. Or maybe it should rank lowly, given that he stuck me with an interest in WWE that currently has panned out pretty terribly.

An overwhelmingly popular character and the kingpin of wrestling during the industry's highest point, Steve Austin has the distinction of being the biggest draw in wrestling history when it comes to evaluating wrestlers' peaks, and to this day the most popular wrestler of all-time with hardcore wrestling fans. Nobody, not even Hulk Hogan, received the ridiculous amount of universal love from the audience that Austin received in his peak, and although he did not draw for as long as Hogan or Ric Flair, his ride on top of the wrestling world was much more lucrative than either man's respective peaks.

Another thing, and really the reason Austin ranks this high is because he came along during a time when the WWF was in desperate need of a star. WCW was destroying the WWF in the Monday Night Wars and it was not until Austin won the WWF Championship did things finally switch back into the favor of the WWF. Things were very bad for the WWF throughout 1996 and 1997, and it is plausible without the rise of Austin the company could have gone out of business, or at the very least be swallowed up completely by WCW. Hogan may have been the big star that took the WWF national; but that came during a time when Vince McMahon was playing chess while the rest of the regional promoters were playing checkers. Those other promoters did not have the financial resources or the economic understanding to fight off McMahon. But by the 1990s the WWF had a rival that could match (and eventually usurp) them financially and utilized the power of cable TV and PPV in a way that had previously been the exclusive right of the WWF. The WWF needed a hero in the worst way, and Austin came in and swooped up the promotion and was the top star in bringing back from the brink and to the top of the industry once more. By sheer force of talent, Austin may have saved the WWF from extinction; think about that.

Consider some of his iconic feuds: Steamboat, Pillman, Roberts, Rocky, McMahon... Austin is an icon thanks to a host of phenomenal moments with virtually every talent with whom he grappled. There's an objective argument for Austin being one of the all-time greats and a subjective reason why I would rank him this highly, and therefore he kicks off our Top 10.
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Confession it took me a long time to really appreciate Austin. I feel like I kinda disliked him until that segment where he attacked Vince McMahon in the hospital bed. I think that was the moment where his absurdity really just clicked with me, and I only started to like him more as time went on.

Like the Austin/Bret feud is something I had to rewatch through to really appreciate because as a kid I just liked Bret Hart a lot and disliked Austin for being that jerk who was battling him. I tended to dislike most of Bret Hart's blood feuds aside from Mr Perfect. Probably to this day a reason why I'm not as big a Shawn Michaels fan as most people

Austin over time completely won me over whereas Shawn never really did though. Says something about the charisma the guy had.
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So I agree with your perception of Austin in the Hart feud, but that's what made him a good villain to me. He was Magog, Bret was Superman. And Magog wins the crowd in its time, but when you detach yourself from the cultural tendencies of the era, you realize that Magog is just an utter, complete wastrel. Superman isn't perfect, but he's right. His attitude is bad, his points are unassailable. And that's why the feud is just perfect.
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I feel like you should label Jake Roberts as Jake (nominated by Snake) Roberts
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Oh, yeah, for sure. But as a 11 year old I couldn't appreciate him much in the moment-- which is kinda weird because I did like my fair share of heels even as a kid. I was the kid who was rooting for Mr Perfect and the Genius to get one over on Hogan for example. Austin was just a perfect type of jackass that rubbed me the wrong way. I hated him even when he was the Ringmaster which wasn't even close to full potential, but something about the way he carried himself and showed that certain type of disdain for his opponents just made me mad. Mad enough that I found myself pulling for a washed up Jake Roberts of all guys to shut him up, and I never really even liked Jake much-- he's a guy I really didn't like until way after he'd retired and I rewatched some old stuff and absorbed what a great promo he was

It speaks to how effective he was, but also partially speaks to what a Bret fanboy I was since even when Bret/HBK was presented as face/face I still hated HBK. And The Patriot of all guys was my least favorite wrestler for a while in 1997. But I still liked the Bret/Austin match in the moment, and honestly the feud in the moment too because it got me into it even if I thought Bret was right the whole time and was upset when the audience turned on him, but it's one of those things I had to rewatch through to really fully appreciate Austin's contribution to how great that feud was.

Anyway yeah Austin is very good. Possibly my favorite guy of your top 10 so a shame to see him drop so "early" but what can ya do. Can't be upset with 10th place.
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I don't know, he might come over here and give me a Stunner for my impertinence.
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If more people were like me and Lopez, Savio Vega would have been a huge star coming off thaat Ringmaster feud!
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Hell yeah. Savio Vega was my boy in that feud for real.

Then he went to Los Boricuas and found his driver's license during his feud with DOA and it was all downhill from there.
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#9 - AJ Styles Nominated by: Mega Mana

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtZxZXRdO5w" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U28pyOAMXcI" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8V05QhwEt4" data-time="

Is it? Can it be? It is! The #9 spot is here! For weeks, it's been rumored that the hottest free agent has been heading towards a top ten spot. AJ Styles: the Redneck Rookie. The Champ That Runs the Camp. The Guy Who Is Constantly Searching for Mega Man 4 Cartridges.

Whether you're part of the AJ community or not, you have to admit that his lineage is full of some of the best wrestling and worst booking in the history of the business. Whether he was the fastest-rising champion in the history of New Japan Pro Wrestling or the midcarder-turned-Vince's-favorite thanks to his indomitable in-ring prowess, AJ is such an easy guy to root for. He can be either an underdog or a domineering heel. He can shine as an Everyman or turn you against him as a cruel and manipulative heel. But I think, first and foremost, the thing that separates AJ is his wrestling ability.

Lots of guys do flips. AJ does flips that feel like they matter. And if you give AJ the time to shine and some rope to work with, he'll craft a fantastic match with virtually any partner. The smartest bookers just stand aside and let the pros do their work. And with AJ, if you hand him a dance partner, he'll give you a dance to remember.

The entire brand of AJ has gone from cocky and somewhat stupid upstart in an untested brand to a bastion of wrestling power in the top spots of the top promotion. That's a story worth telling across multiple promotions. From his humble beginnings to his peak performances, AJ has always demonstrated that down-home roll-up-your-sleeves work ethic that ingratiates himself with a fan like me, someone who loves a great story told across decades through different promotions. And you couldn't ask for a happier ending.
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Remember: Steve Austin is the only person in history to hit a future US President with a Stunner.
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The AJ community?

AJ Styles is very good. Possibly my favorite guy of your top 10 so a shame to see him drop so "early" but what can ya do. Can't be upset with 9th place.

What makes it amazing is in his earlier TNA days he would've been in the vanilla midget camp for me, but he really learned a lot in his career and it shows. Be it making flips matter, or cutting good promos and showing character, or whatever else. In one of the earlier APWT end of the year awards I think I unironically considered him as a vote for most improved... keep in mind this was in 2016.

(At this rate I have a prediction for #8)
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His character also went from stupid to intelligent organically over the years, so it's hard to separate kayfabe from reality. You feel like he's improving both in and out of the wrestling universe.
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I don't remember anything of Jake Roberts other than he was a playable character in SVR 2006 and you needed a PSP link cable to unlock him.

#8 - Ric Flair Nominated by: Inviso

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8sif1BIeJA" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2JNOFCNduQ" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVU0MW-IGrM" data-time="

There will almost certainly be another C.M. Punk. There may be another Rock. There may be another Stone Cold Steve Austin. There may even be another Lou Theisz (another candidate). But there will never again be another Ric Flair because theres no place to do what he was so good at. And I doubt any other main event talent in history has either got more four star matches out of mediocre talent in their first ever meeting or put more mediocre talent over than Ric Flair.

Ric Flair was a great wrestler with more than his share of five star matches with both a lot of skill and ring psychology and he was damn good on the mic all supported by a very good gimmick - but so is literally every first rate wrestler in history. Ric Flair had to regularly fight against people hed never met before, making them look good no matter how good they really were - and frequently leaving the local audience able to at least tell themselves the local champion had been cheated of the title.

He didnt just pull five star matches out against great wrestlers - he pulled four star matches out against mediocre wrestlers who used literally any style seen anywhere in America or Japan. He could brawl with the brawlers, he could grapple the grapplers, and he could handle the high flyers. And on top of that, he was one of the most outlandish, ridiculous characters in history. In the best way possible.
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To be THE MAN you gotta beat....one of these other 7 men
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#7 - Tomohiro Ishii Nominated by: JONA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXa0lqPHbho" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rezUO7ACb4" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miKP9JOnK3I" data-time="

Tomohiro Ishii is, quite honestly, my favorite wrestler on the planet.

From a purely wrestling perspective, he may not be the same technical marvel or high spot flying death defying magician that other workers are, but there's no wrestler who has created more enjoyment in a match than Ishii. Tomohiro Ishii is an awe-inspiring professional wrestler. No, he wont wow you with amazing aerial moves, mind melting athleticism or classy technical displays. But he will brawl with you. He will invite and take each and every shot you have, and dish out blows just as hard. Might even pick up guys twice his size for a slam or suplex. Or counter a bomb with uncanny craftiness, using hurricanranas or stunners with a grace you would never think he could pull off. If you drop him in his head, he may rise up immediately. If you pin him, he may kick out at one, just to prove a point. His fighting spirit makes him do things no one could ever believe he would be able to, in a staggeringly consistent manner.

Stone Pitbull is one of the most perfect monikers in all of wrestling, because it encapsulates most of Ishiis personality in just two words. Imagine a Pitbull, okay? Not a lot of expressions, usually. Yet, when its angry, it will come at you ferociously and persistently. Now, and picture this really hard: it is made out of actual stone. Oh fuck, how do you get rid of this thing? Do I have to break it? Can I even break it? But heres the thing: even with the intimidating figure, it is still a dog, so its inherently likable. Sometimes you cant help but be in awe. And thats how Ishii is.

And, as a final tidbit, there's no better shoot comment than Ishii believing that when he came to ROH, they handed him the top belt in the promotion when it was just the TV Title.
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I love Ishii. He is the main reason I wished I watched more NJPW.

Just a manly goddamn wrestler. I wish we could see Ishii vs Meng in their primes.
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#6 - Chris Jericho Nominated by: Inviso

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGsBRImD0po" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVfGS227bIo" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrWPulfE_uU" data-time="

Chris Jericho is the master of reinvention and probably the most purely creative mind in the business.

Strictly from an in-ring perspective, few Superstars have entered WWE with an ability to have as many good matches against as varied a crop of workers as Jericho. Over the course of his 18 years with Vince McMahon's company, he has had the opportunity to work with everyone from The Rock to Fandango and, in the process, has delivered truly definitive matches across several eras. On top of his WWE run is a fantastic rookie plow through the cruiserweight division of WCW in a host of major feuds. Jericho comes away with an eclectic variety of iconic moments in the US alone, but when you add his current New Japan feud, you can just make a laundry list of all of the great Jericho moments. I feel the only proper way to do a Jericho write-up justice is to make a list:

1) The Man of 1,004 Holds Promo
2) The Jericho/Malenko Feud
3) Jericho Blaming the Locker Room in WCW as Part of a Conspiracy to Keep Him Down
4) Jericho Mocking Goldberg's Entrance
5) The Countdown to Jericho's WWF Debut, Probably the Singularly Greatest Debut in Wrestling History
6) Jericho and Chyna
7) Jericho's Spell in the Tag Division in 2001
8) Jericho Becoming the First Undisputed Champion
9) Jericho and Christian Feud
10) Save_Us.Y2J
11) Jericho vs. Shawn Michaels
12) Jericho vs. CM Punk
13) Jericho's Silent Promos
14) The List
15) The Festival of Friendship
16) Jericho vs. Omega
17) Jericho vs. Naito

I could break down all of these individual moments, but the fact that most wrestlers are lucky to get 5 or 6 truly iconic moments or characters or feuds and Jericho sits at 17 with still no end in sight is a testament to just how truly, truly great Jericho remains until this day. A master of evolving to meet the demands of a changing crowd, Jericho is an expert in storytelling, an in-ring specialist, and a lock from my #6 spot on this list.
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And then there were five:

Arn Anderson (Eddv)
Brian Pillman (JONA)
Diamond Dallas Page (JONA)
Jake Roberts (Snake)
Ted DiBiase (JONA)
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Hey Jericho lasted 2 more spaces than I thought he would right on.

Jericho's always been one of my favorites. And I don't mean in a nostalgic "he used to be great and I still love the guy" kinda way as much as in the moment directly when he appears on the show-- and it's largely because he's always evolving his character as you said. It's impressive for a guy with that long a career to be relevant the whole time. WWE tried its darndest in I wanna say... 2014... to make him boring when he basically existed to just job out to guys, but he got out before the stink of WWE booking ruined him too bad, then came back with THE LIST.

That he likes to take routine breaks to go tour with Fozzy or whatever else probably has helped him a lot all things considered. And I think more wrestlers could stand to branch out more than they do because absence does make the heart grow fonder. Also the abundance of breaks are probably why he can still go today.
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On the one hand, Jericho is pretty awesome.

On the other hand, fuck the Codebreaker.
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#5 - Arn Anderson Nominated by: Eddv

Arn Anderson is the singularly most realistic wrestler both in-ring and on the mic.

One of the words most often associated with perennial Four Horsemen enforcer Arn Anderson is often overlooked. Whether in singles competition, or as part of the Tag Team Champions in WCW or the WWF, Anderson was a "wrestler's wrestler." Anderson, a thinking man's technician, would often isolate a body part before nailing his opponents, who were usually either bigger or faster, with an AA spinebuster or DDT. Always using great, quiet psychology, Arn was Ric Flair's rock, and the proto-Cerebral Assassin. Arn's style always stood out as a real world, competitive style. When he wasn't using outside shenanigans in order to ensure a victory, Arn would prove mentally tough; there were easy-to-explain tactics in Arn's arsenal, and those explanation produced the air of a character that truly knew what he was doing. Combine that with the general crispness of Arn's work, and you could put him in front of a non-wrestling fan and probably convince them that this guy was really, truly wrestling and not just "acting".

But the aspect of Arn that pushes him into my Top 5 (and really everyone in my Top 5 lands here for this) is his promo work. Arn Anderson has to be the most forgotten promo in the modern world. I don't need loud promos or funny segments in my wrestling. I just need to be able to BELIEVE. I need to suspend my disbelief. Arn created for himself one of the most complex characters in the history of wrestling. Was Arn a bad guy? Sometimes. But often you could overlook it because of the attention to detail in his promos. He poured out his heart and soul into his work and it always showed. I can't even truly do justice to Arn's intricacy. He spoke with the pain of a veteran fighting for his family, thinking only of putting food on their table, even at the expense of every other worker around him. It was noble and also at times morally repugnant, and that layered text spoke volumes in every move he did and every word he said. No character ever felt as fleshed out to me as Arn Anderson. His cadence was that of a thinking man, a philosopher of sorts. He sought to justify his every action, not to the audience, but to himself and his fellow Horsemen. In the end, this drive created a quiet, reserved and deadly threat.

Take a look at what I consider the height of character:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhdOAMfkJ-A" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FpawLjwCfQ" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PJZdeJfx4E" data-time="

Arn Anderson presented a noble savage. A man who made great sacrifices for a purpose he believed was unassailable: defending his friends and providing for his family. He treated the Horsemen like they mattered, and because he did, they mattered.
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Waiting for @Eddv to talk about my boy Arn.

Also Jona has 75% of the remaining field! Pretty solid sweep.
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So you actually hit on the point I always make about Arn. The Four Horsemen were only Flairs stable in like 1983-5.

From that point on they were Arns stable. This group was about work ethic, loyalty, family, and brutality. Those are Arns traits, not Rics.

This all came to a head in my absolute favorite Arn feud, vs Flair at Fall Brawl '95.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmcUTUKO5-Y" data-time="

Skip forward to like the 1:30 mark for it to start and then my absolute favorite Arn promo.

This man is old school personified, the wrestler personified. Fuck Randy Orton, this is what a wrestler made from scratch is.

Also he does the Aloha-Arn and makes it like...so serious serious

http://oswreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Aloha-Arn.gif
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In some ways, Ric Flair is the best friend ever, because he knew Arn needed a Ric Flair.
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Arn is one of the guys I never really liked in your top ten, but as I said before I'm sure it's a problem on my end more than him not being good. The problem is I just haven't watched enough early WCW to really have any good appreciation for the horsemen. Like it's funny that you linked a bunch of promos that I actually have seen, but they fell on deaf ears for me because I'd never seen the Horsemen in a context where they were actually worth all the bluster Arn makes about em.

For me he's that guy that was in the Brainbusters, and then cut a bunch of promos about how great the Horsemen were in late 90s WCW when on Nitro they were mostly featured in a context where they were arguing with each other and infighting. Of course, I can watch old stuff where they were better now, but he's already kinda been irreparably tainted as that guy who takes things way too seriously about a faction that felt like a lot more hype than substance due to my first exposure to him as a WCW viewer being just that.

I imagine a lot of WCW fans that joined during the Monday Night Wars feel similarly. Not really sure if it could have been fixed. Booking the horsemen a bit better from 1995 on would've definitely helped-- also imo probably Mongo and Chris Benoit being in the Horsemen then was a mistake-- when you're introducing the show to a new audience you should probably make the Horsemen as hype as you can, star power for each horse. Bring Luger back in he used to be one.
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I didn't watch old Arn and his promos meant a lot to me even without watching the Horsemen of yore.
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Huh. That's really surprising to me. I mean I guess it shouldn't be since you didn't mention it much at all in your write-up but I dunno I just kinda figured most people who didn't experience The Horsemen before 1995 they'd come off as a bit of a joke relative to their reputation.

I mean he has the same kind of promos that Bret Hart does that I love so I see the appeal to the guy, but the difference to me is that Bret Hart actually earned his hype with good achievements and matches and The Horsemen to me in 96, 97, 98, just hadn't. To me The Horsemen getting the hype they did then was along the same kinda vein as Miz saying the Intercontinental Title is relevant. Only Arn wasn't a heel at the time and was treated as credible in saying this. Well actually I guess Miz kinda is treated as credible in saying this because despite being a heel they like to pretend the title is prestigious so maybe it's closer to the mark than I thought at first glance.
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Arn's promos are really different from Bret's. Arn is a teacher and his consistent theme is that the life of a Horseman shouldn't appeal to anyone. It takes a toll on a man and it strains the family to a breaking point, all because of a concept that is more like tilting at windmills than achieving anything satisfying. And during the Monday Night Wars, the Horsemen were clearly a gang of bad guys, but their "bad" at least had a code of honor to it. There was a camaraderie and a code and a price you paid to be a Horseman.

I don't know. I just find Arn to be a very excellent character who pondered all of these moral questions in wrestling that no one else ever does.
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I was more saying I consider them similar because they both take wrestling very seriously and the strength in their promo skills was cutting a believable promo. The content is of course different. The delivery is different. But at their core the reason they cut good promos is because you really feel like they treat wrestling like it's something legitimate and real.

But for me someone who takes wrestling very seriously without having the achievements to back it up to me it hurts their credibility a lot. Like Arn may have talked a lot about how it takes a commitment to be a horseman, but he also always seemed to refer to it in a light where there was some sort of honor and prestige to being one as well. Like he wasn't ever saying "don't be a horseman it's dumb" he was saying "don't be a horseman because you can't handle it"-- but why can't they handle it? What are they doing that's so much more difficult than Meng going in there and fighting dudes. If you're wrestling at a high level then that is self explanatory. If you're just some random four man act that gets a lot of hype but looking realistically is barely holding itself together it becomes a bit harder to sell, and that's where it always fell apart to me.

The words were good but my perception never quite matched up with what he was selling. I always assumed not seeing the earlier stuff was to blame but maybe there's something more to it.
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Arn isn't the title winner though and that's why he had a great little feud with Flair. The point of Arn was that he served as Ric's support (in a multitude of ways). He morphed into the leader of the Horsemen because he was a teacher to younger members as time went on as well as a grounded center for the group like Martian Manhunter in the Justice League.

And the reasons he gives for why someone couldn't be a Horsemen start as saying that they operate on a high level of wrestling and slowly become "you spend so much time operating on this high level that you're going to destroy your own life."

And this idea that he needs to have a singles title is really flawed. Think of WCW as a traditional old school promotion that it was. Arn won enough titles to earn the respect he should have in the tag division. I'm really not huge on everyone having a copious number of belts. He wrestled great matches and defeated a lot of tough opponents. He earned the credibility. I don't take Miz seriously up until this day and he has a warchest of titles. But he does WWE crap comedy just like everyone else and I can't accept him as legitimate.
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Well I never said he needed a singles title. Achievements do not necessarily mean titles. I just buried Miz myself so I mean I thought that would make it clear that's not exactly what I meant there.

I meant The Four Horsemen needed to be doing something relevant that wasn't bickering amongst themselves. In the past they may have. In 1995-1998 they are not doing that very often at all. Like it's not that I don't see the idea of operating at a high level over an extended period of time being difficult as making sense-- I see the idea that the Horsemen in their Monday Night War state operating at that level being the thing that's difficult to swallow. They're just dudes that talk a big game and have some matches just like anyone else on the roster. If it was a collection of elite names you could maybe sell it easier, but Benoit and Mongo are just random midcarders.

Like to me it's not Arn himself that is not credible enough for what he's selling as much as The Four Horsemen (again, Monday Night Wars era Horsemen), which he symbolizes, that isn't.
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Looen is nailing the major problem - the horsemen needed to win SOMETHING. Either by ultimately knocking off Hogan in 1995 or by getting real wins over the nWo in 1996 or 7.

But for my money, just the peak WarGames stuff earned Arn the right forever.

But if you missed that....then yeah.

Mongo was a bad horseman, but the reunited horsemen in the 90s were intended to be a vehicle for Benoit. Benoit was WCWs Bret at the time. They had tapped him for singles greatness as early as 1995 but the trigger took a VERY long time getting pulled with all the chaos of leadership changes and the booking dilemma that was Hulk Hogan
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#4 - Ted DiBiase Nominated by: JONA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgj3_Wis6HU" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwoQ2b3k8Uo" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C_GiA7Mwq0" data-time="

The best pure heel in the wrestling business, DiBiase was a phenomenal worker in his era and one of the most criminally underutilized guys on the WWF roster. Throughout wrestling history, the best performers have had the ability to combine both sport and entertainment. They are the men and women who have left the greatest marks on the industry and, at the same time, captured the imaginations of millions of fans worldwide. Ted DiBiase's ability to blend outstanding in-ring work with an over-the-top character made him one of the most memorable and enduring characters in the business.

If you look at his entire WWE run, it centered on a character who believed in the philosophy of "greed is good", an acolyte of the Gordon Gekko era. What made him tick so well was that he also completely believed that other wrestlers subscribed to this same philosophy. His plots were always about forcing his opponent to succumb to the seduction of the dollar in the same way he did. In a lot of ways, he was like the devil tempting Christ over and over and over again. But even if the basic tenets of a DiBiase feud didn't change, the variety of ways in which he proselytized his faith were different enoguh to keep a fan engaged. He also spent most of his WWE career in positions of influence so that he really did appear to be a big name player who's name carried some weight. There were times where the Million Dollar Belt, a completely bogus title with no significance created purely by DiBiase, felt more significant than other titles in the company. That's quite an achievement and testament to the power of DiBiase's promo skills.

DiBiase was also a master of cutting an old school promo, and the fact that he was able to lay into his character gave him an edge over every Tito Santana or Greg Valentine in the business. DiBiase was a performer in every sense of the word, and his comic book villainy was layered with just enough simple philosophy and morality that it drew you in and made you think just a little bit during DiBiase's matches. And when I watch wrestling, I want that superhero treatment. Superheroes are, at their core, modern day mythology, allegories for which we can explore the problems of our world through the lens of another. DiBiase rose at a time in which affluence and greed were worshiped, and, like a twisted mirror, DiBiase reflected the very worst those attributes had to offer. For me, that makes him an utterly perfect character.

Though he was never officially recognized as WWE champion, a title he deserved at least once in his storied career, DiBiase is remembered as one of the top stars of the first big wrestling boom.
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Probably the first time and sat and listened to Arn Anderson promo.

Is Stone Cold Steve Austin based off of Arn Anderson? Legit question.

Like, promo style.
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I wouldn't be surprised if Arn influenced him, but Austin always says that Stone Cold Steve Austin is based on Vince McMahon.
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#3 - Jake Roberts Nominated by: Snake the Snake Roberts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEI81DATt5A" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipU4-Gp7N94" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC9QUUAcMH0" data-time="

Perhaps no other move during the WrestleMania era has been as feared as the DDT. Its creator was equally intimidating. Jake The Snake Roberts had something. Paul Heyman called it an intangible. Jake The Snake Roberts completely changed the way that wrestlers did interviews. Rather than scream and holler at the camera and make threats, the way the majority of wrestling promos worked for decades, Jake spoke in a very calm and monotone matter and delivered cerebral and at times, frightening, promos. Backed by a strangely nightmarish, yet invigorating, charisma, Jake put a stranglehold on the audiences mind like no other. Jake had free rein to create his own promos and fill them with imagery and symbolism that he felt fit his character, and that made a world of difference. Consequently, the greatest promo in the history of wrestling is Jake Roberts.

Jakes WWF run was filled with some of wrestlings most brutal moments. His first feud with Ricky The Dragon Steamboat took a dangerous turn when Jake DDTd Ricky on the concrete floor and cracked his head like a coconut. Jake legitimately knocked Ricky out cold. Then a short while later, Honky Tonk Man cracked Jake in the side of the head with a guitar to build up a match for Wrestlemania III. The plan was for Honky to hit Jake with a worked trick guitar, but somebody wound up making a mistake and replacing it with a real guitar, causing a concussion in Roberts head that led to his pain pill addiction. After this, Jake became a wildly popular babyface and began to battle heels such as Ted Dibiase, Bad News Brown, and an awesome feud with Ravishing Rick Rude after Rude hit on Jakes real life wife Cheryl who was in the front row.

All of these feuds had a visceral, real quality to them. They went further than other feuds in the Fed and gave Jake an air of legitimacy. Fans always had latched onto Jake thanks to his intangible charisma, but his midcard storylines really helped propel an era anchored on one or two big stars even further. When your entire card from top to bottom is compelling, it makes a world of difference.

It's always been interesting to me, and a testament to the star quality of Jake in his prime, that he ruined his own chances at a main event push. How? In 1988, Jake was being primed for a run against Hulk Hogan. However, on house shows, Jake could not stop getting cheered against Hogan, and Vince dropped the angle after seeing the crowd split. Hogan couldn't keep the crowd on his side against Jake, and that says a lot for Jake. At the height of one of the biggest wrestling star's popularity, Jake was leeching the crowd away from said star. If that doesn't demonstrate the innate charisma of Roberts, I don't know what does.

Even though his personal demons eventually ended the prominence of his career, Jake is still fondly regarded by many as the most fantastic character in a universe inhabited by fantastic characters.
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Ted Dibiase on the other hand I always loved. Probably the defining guy I think of when I think about a good gimmick in wrestling. Not to imply he was made by the gimmick or anything but he totally crushed it. In some ways it's unfortunate that he never got a title run, but honestly in some ways guys like Dibiase being as good as they are and not getting a title run helped the prestige of the title too.

But I mean, Sgt Slaughter of all guys got a run so while some guys not getting the title for at least a while is good it didn't have to be Dibiase. Dude was huge in the late 80s. He was robbed at Wrestlemania IV.
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Jake Roberts is another guy I can't say I ever quite clicked with, at the time. I think it was mostly because most of the stuff I saw of his were when he was a face whose schtick was throwing a snake at people-- and as like a 5 year old I didn't really appreciate how good even his face promos were. Though I do think heel Jake the Snake was more entertaining, even with how over the DDT was for the audience to chant.

Unlike with Arn, however, his character wasn't ruined because of this and I've grown much more fond of him over time. I think the difference is I never actively disliked Jake the Snake, just kinda found him "whatever." So when I go back and watch more stuff that features him later, I'm like "dude this guy was good when he was on"

Not one of my favorites by any means but definitely can acknowledge what he did right.
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#2 - Brian Pillman Nominated by: JONA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpM-z0gJ1p8" data-time="&start=308

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brWHe5QZO9U" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBKpLtIiucg" data-time="

The line between fantasy and reality in professional wrestling is finer than most believe or comprehend.
No one performer walked that line on a regular basis more than the "Loose Cannon" Brian Pillman, a true visionary in the business and the man who I think had more influence on the Attitude Era than anyone else would give credit. Beginning in late 1995 and lasting until his unfortunate and untimely death in October of 1997, he underwent a character change that proved to be one of the most controversial in wrestling history and regularly had fans guessing as to what was real and what was simply an act.

Pillman quickly became one of the most talked about characters on television thanks to his unpredictable nature, but prior to changing his entire persona, Pillman was well-respected for his innovative, revolutionary, high-flying style that brought a flashiness to American wrestling typically reserved for Mexico and Japan.

It was a far cry from the man who really popularized the high flying style in North America. His feuds with Japanese sensation Jushin Liger were legendary and eventually propelled him into a tag team with his soon-to-be best friend Steve Austin. Austin often credits Pillman for really changing his view on the business and helping him develop his own (at the time) mediocre promo skills. If you look back at the Flair for the Old segments produced by the Hollywood Blondes, it was clear there was something special there.

Eventually Pillman began to suffer from some internal demons such as addiction thanks to a lifelong battle against polyps in his throat and extensive surgeries that stemmed back to age 5. Around this time, Pillman began developing his Loose Cannon character, a schtick that was worked both in front and behind the camera. There are famous legends of Pillman convincing WCW that he was having a surgery just to avoid appearing in the now infamously bad triple cage match where Hogan and Savage defeated 12 top heels in one match. Another legend tells of how Pillman tricked Eric Bischoff into letting him out of his contract as part of a bizarre angle with Kevin Sullivan in order to "sell it" to the smart fans. Pillman then left for ECW and WWF and Eric was left holding the bag.

In WWF, Pillman's run could have been something special. Aligned with the Hart Foundation, Pillman quickly became the Loose Cannon of the group, and his appearances often stole the show. When he began a singles feud with Steve Austin in WWF, one of the most controversial and influential segments in the history of wrestling was sure to follow, as Pillman began to blur the lines between reality and fiction to such an extent that no one was sure whether it was real or not. It certainly became water cooler talk though, and WWF discovered ratings followed with this new style of television formatting. However, within weeks, Pillman was found dead of an overdose, and a burgeoning new era in wrestling was forced to lurch forward without him.

One of the best wrestlers in the world during his time with WCW, it was a shame that his automobile accident did the extensive damage it did to his health, preventing a new audience in WWE fans from seeing just how truly great he was. His death came far too early as well, robbing future generations from watching the great performer ply his craft well into the next century.

As a final note, my first dynasty file in TEW featured Pillman as the eventual top star in a 1995 WCW. I think I've never felt the creative liberty I had with Pillman in any other file, and I think that's a testament to just how remarkable his character was.
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#1 - Diamond Dallas Page Nominated by: JONA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdHE0zJGG7E" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seAUKvKL_Bo" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvhaWY4qy9o" data-time="

He's a remarkable person both in and out of the ring, he's a man that turned the audience to his side purely thanks to his attitude in an era all about attitude, and he's the people's champion in a company of the biggest stars in the business. It's he, it's he, it's DDP, my #1 wrestler of all time.

I won't deny that fond memories propel DDP higher on this list. But I think of DDP as my home team. You always root for your home team. If wrestling is literature, than Page is the perfect representation of the villain redeemed, the everyman personified, and the vox populi magnified. It can certainly be said that DDP made his own way in the wrestling business. After a good run as a manager in AWA, he began training for active competition at age 35, a point where many wrestlers are already starting to eye retirement. Despite his age, he grew quickly into a reliable in-ring performer with a great deal of natural charisma. Early on he continued his heel persona from his AWA days, but after turning face his everyman persona, charisma and mastery of his Diamond Cutter finisher skyrocketed his popularity with the fans. Had a phenomenal feud with "Macho Man" Randy Savage and later gave Goldberg his career-best match.

The beauty of DDP is that he was willing to work constantly and with great effort. DDP believed in scripting his matches, and this actually worked in his favor. Every match was set up perfectly for DDP to get his character over even if he lost. DDP developed a character based on himself, so his mannerisms and body language really assisted in bolstering what fans saw in the ring. When little expressions are intentional, it can go a long way in defining a character, and DDP was first and foremost a character in wrestling.

When you look at his post-wrestling career and see just how much he is trying to give back to the business with DDP Yoga, you can't help but also root for him in real life as well. Not only has it helped some older talents fight addiction, but it's helped a LOT of younger talent overcome injury and maintain a core level of strength that gets them through long trips on the road in the grueling schedule of a modern worker. So DDP has a legacy that directly impacts a great number of workers.

For me, nothing is greater than DDP delivering a Diamond Cutter. Even Orton can't compare. And when I think of wrestling, my defining wrestling moment is DDP delivering that sneaky Diamond Cutter against the NWO and declaring his allegiance to WCW in what is still the greatest large-scale story in wrestling history. In the greatest era of wrestling history, DDP was my guy.
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Final Rankings:

150. Jenna Morasca
149. Ashley Massaro
148. The Great Khali
147. Krissy Vaine
146. The Final Solution
145. Rhaka Khan
144. Dave Crist
143. Rosa Mendes
142. Jackie Gayda
141. Matt Taven
140. Jinder Mahal
139. Heidenreich
138. Bryan Alvarez
137. Enzo Amore
136. Dan Matha
135. The Boogeyman
134. Vladimir Kozlov
133. Santino Marella
132. Glacier
131. Muhammad Hassan
130. Torrie Wilson
129. James Ellsworth
128. Nikki Bella
127. Jay White
126. The Shockmaster
125. Hornswoggle
124. Kevin Sullivan
123. Steve Blackman
122. Barry Darsow
121. Taylor Wilde
120. Ronda Rousey
119. Bob Holly
118. Chris Kanyon
117. Vickie Guerrero
116. Chase Owens
115. Disco Inferno
114. Sasha Banks
113. MVP
112. Buff Bagwell
111. The Big Boss Man
110. Heath Slater
109. Scott Norton
108. Charlotte Flair
107. Timothy Thatcher
106. Rich Swann
105. Goldust
104. Matt Sydal
103. Kane
102. Bayley
101. Tommaso Ciampa
100. Tyler Bate
99. Taichi
98. Mark Henry
97. Terry Gordy
96. Booker T
95. Vampiro
94. Ron Simmons
93. Dusty Rhodes
92. Dynamite Kid
91. Road Warrior Hawk
90. Raven
89. Alex Wright
88. SANADA
87. WALTER
86. Lou Thesz
85. Hirooki Goto
84. Chuck Taylor
83. Juice Robinson
82. Andre the Giant
81. Maria Kanellis
80. Hayabusa
79. Josh Mathews
78. Jacques Rougeau
77. Toru Yano
76. Triple H
75. Braun Strowman
74. Kevin Nash
73. Sid Vicious
72. EVIL
71. Perry Saturn
70. Daffney
69. Awesome Kong
68. Trish Stratus
67. Miz
66. Terry Funk
65. Kota Ibushi
64. Seth Rollins
63. Bruiser Brody
62. Billy Graham
61. Naomichi Marufuji
60. Brock Lesnar
59. Roderick Strong
58. Undertaker
57. AJ Lee
56. Kairi Sane
55. Chavo Guerrero
54. Randy Savage
53. Ultimo Dragon
52. John Cena
51. Hulk Hogan
50. Shawn Michaels
49. Jeff Hardy
48. Big Show
47. Rey Mysterio
46. Shinsuke Nakamura
45. Kurt Angle
44. Mickie James
43. Mick Foley
42. Jesse Ventura
41. Daniel Bryan
40. Scott Steiner
39. Finn Balor
38. KUSHIDA
37. Mister Perfect
36. Pentagon
35. Hurricane
34. Kazuchika Okada
33. CM Punk
32. Neville
31. Dave Meltzer
30. Ethan Carter III
29. Hiroshi Tanahashi
28. Edge
27. Eddie Guerrero
26. Dan Lambert
25. Tetsuya Naito
24. Matt Hardy
23. Will Ospreay
22. Jushin Liger
21. Becky Lynch
20. Dean Malenko
19. Hiromu Takahashi
18. Bobby Heenan
17. Bret Hart
16. William Regal
15. Eric Bischoff
14. Asuka
13. Lex Luger
12. Minoru Suzuki
11. Kenny Omega
10. Steve Austin
9. AJ Styles
8. Ric Flair
7. Tomohiro Ishii
6. Chris Jericho
5. Arn Anderson
4. Ted DiBiase
3. Jake Roberts
2. Brian Pillman
1. Diamond Dallas Page
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