Board 8 > TLJ and Solo might be the last straw for Kathleen Kennedy

(+) Yeah! (+)

http://www.worldofreel.com/2018/06/star-wars-rumor-kathleen-kennedy.html?m=1

Fan backlash from TLJ and the subsequent bomb of Solo in the aftermath may have been too much for Kathleen Kennedy to recover from. She is largely held as responsible for the direction of the Star Wars films and the choices of what subject matter to use.
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The Last Jedi sucked, but I genuinely liked Solo and thought it was a good movie. I hate to see it do poorly because of Star Wars fatigue and fans still being upset about the previous film.

I'll admit I was not looking forward to it going in, but it definitely exceeded my low expectations.
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davidponte posted...

The Last Jedi sucked, but I genuinely liked Solo and thought it was a good movie. I hate to see it do poorly because of Star Wars fatigue and fans still being upset about the previous film.

I'll admit I was not looking forward to it going in, but it definitely exceeded my low expectations.

Yeah, the problem is a lot of fans didn't even get it a chance because TLJ soured them so much.
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I really liked TLJ
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Hot take-- The Last Jedi is by far the best Star Wars since The Empire Strikes Back and allowing Rian Johnson to create an entirely new trilogy unrelated to Skywalkers is the best thing Disney has done.
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Seeing (more like hearing) about people being upset about TLJ is really funny to me since I think it's easily the best Star Wars since Empire.
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No negotiating with terrorists
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*high fives Xiahou*
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I mean, that is great that you all have good opinions about the films, but the film was not liked by a lot of fans which led to tanked numbers in the follow up. Unless by making the film the way you liked it brought in equal or more fans to replace those that it soured to the franchise, then it was a bad decision that hurt the franchise.
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I really came out of TLJ having more respect for Luke than ever, and its crazy to me that fans got mad that he had an emotional arc in the movie instead of just being a fully formed recluse badass from the jump
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He had an arc that didn't really fit his established character well at all is the problem. You'd be better off making an original character for Luke's role there.
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OliviaTremor posted...

*high fives Xiahou*

Holy shit only 30 seconds apart too, beauty. ^5

Corrik posted...

but the film was not liked by a lot of fans which led to tanked numbers in the follow up.

TLJ (or more specifically, fan reaction to TLJ) is not the reason Solo is seeing the numbers it is. Granted it is a small part of it, but you're warping reality if you think Solo is bombing because of TLJ backlash.
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Corrik posted...

I mean, that is great that you all have good opinions about the films, but the film was not liked by a lot of fans which led to tanked numbers in the follow up. Unless by making the film the way you liked it brought in equal or more fans to replace those that it soured to the franchise, then it was a bad decision that hurt the franchise.

Do you honestly think that was the main reason Solo is below expectations?
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Jakyl25 posted...

I really came out of TLJ having more respect for Luke than ever, and it?s crazy to me that fans got mad that he had an emotional arc in the movie instead of just being a fully formed recluse badass from the jump

Luke's arc is my favourite part of the movie. It's all the other stuff that I disliked.
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Lopen posted...

He had an arc that didn't really fit his established character well at all is the problem.

Hot take: Luke in the films never had an established character before TLJ. Just a Jedi puppet that made one strong, righteous choice at the end.
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Xiahou Shake posted...

OliviaTremor posted...

*high fives Xiahou*

Holy shit only 30 seconds apart too, beauty. ^5

Corrik posted...

but the film was not liked by a lot of fans which led to tanked numbers in the follow up.

TLJ is not the reason Solo is seeing the numbers it is. Granted it is a small part of it, but you're warping reality if you think Solo is bombing because of TLJ backlash.

If you say so... It is interesting in your reality that you are right and everyone else that disagrees with you is wrong though. lol
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Hot take: You fabricated that opinion to brush aside a legitimate inconsistency with the presentation of the character because you like TLJ's version more
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

I mean, that is great that you all have good opinions about the films, but the film was not liked by a lot of fans which led to tanked numbers in the follow up. Unless by making the film the way you liked it brought in equal or more fans to replace those that it soured to the franchise, then it was a bad decision that hurt the franchise.

Do you honestly think that was the main reason Solo is below expectations?

Yes, I do think if TLJ wasn't polarizing and hadn't soured moviegoer reactions on the franchise when it was full of momentum that this movie wouldn't have bombed. If Rogue One had come out after TLJ, I feel it would have bombed just as bad.
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I can't say that I liked TLJ that much. I came away from it liking it but then I thought about its problems (That freaking casino planet sidequest, like all of it) and they do sort of bring it down.
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TLJ was well-received by any reasonable metric. In no universe was it less liked than The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones.
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But Rogue One was worse, all in all. The whole first act is full of characters who need to be compelling and aren't, and it was only really saved by some good action.
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Corrik posted...

Yes, I do think if TLJ wasn't polarizing and hadn't soured moviegoer reactions on the franchise when it was full of momentum that this movie wouldn't have bombed. If Rogue One had come out after TLJ, I feel it would have bombed just as bad.

The problem is you're only considering what movie came before and not the myriad factors that actually led to this film doing poorly. Viral rumors of trouble on the set, a change in directors, massive amounts of reshoots, a marketing campaign that only kicked in to gear less than three months before the movie dropped, fatigue from the last Star Wars being less than half a year back - and not one, but two major movie releases in the same period targeting the exact same audience, just to name the major ones. TLJ backlash doesn't even remotely chart.
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paperwarior posted...

But Rogue One was worse, all in all. The whole first act is full of characters who need to be compelling and aren't, and it was only really saved by some good action.

That's what I mean. They made a movie about something no one really cared about at all and did good numbers for it all based on the previous movies momentum.

Solo got the opposite effect from the previous movie.
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I would say the marketing campaign issue was as much a problem with Rogue One as TLJ to be honest

I do think saying TLJ is the majority of the issue is incorrect but "doesn't remotely chart" is probably more than a little hyperbolic too. Majority of the issue boils down to release date and everything that entails. TLJ backlash is probably #2, though (which is really like #5 since release date hits a lot of problems)
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TLJ was a pretty good, yet heavily flawed movie.

Solo was fucking incredible and I don't think I've ever had more fun with a Star Wars movie. I'm saying that as a huge Chewie/Han/Lando fan, but still.

If Kennedy is to "blame" for Solo, I like her.
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Xiahou Shake posted...

Corrik posted...

Yes, I do think if TLJ wasn't polarizing and hadn't soured moviegoer reactions on the franchise when it was full of momentum that this movie wouldn't have bombed. If Rogue One had come out after TLJ, I feel it would have bombed just as bad.

The problem is you're only considering what movie came before it and not the myriad factors that actually led to this movie doing poorly. Viral rumors of trouble on the set, massive amounts of reshoots, a marketing campaign that only kicked in to gear less than three months before the movie dropped, fatigue from the last Star Wars being less than half a year back - and not one, but two major movie releases in the same period targeting the exact same audience, just to name the major ones. TLJ backlash doesn't even remotely chart.

Well, that is nice, but it does "chart". Everyone who explains why it bombs generally lists TLJ's fan reaction as a reason.

A lot of the other ones I would argue are more concocted. Franchise fatigue for the 4th movie in 3 years? By the same company pumping out 3 to 4 movies in a calendar year in the Marvel franchise? How many of them bombed?

I mean, that seems more like a concocted reason than this one which "doesn't even chart".
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Lopen posted...

Hot take: You fabricated that opinion to brush aside a legitimate inconsistency with the presentation of the character because you like TLJ's version more

Aside from the very end of RotJ, when does Luke ever face a difficult choice?
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Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

Hot take: You fabricated that opinion to brush aside a legitimate inconsistency with the presentation of the character because you like TLJ's version more

Aside from the very end of RotJ, when does Luke ever face a difficult choice?

Going with Obi Wan.

Attacking the Death Star instead of leaving with Han.

Taking off his visor and trusting the force.

Going to Cloud City against Yoda's wishes.

Like... that's just the few that come immediately to mind.
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Corrik posted...

paperwarior posted...

But Rogue One was worse, all in all. The whole first act is full of characters who need to be compelling and aren't, and it was only really saved by some good action.

That's what I mean. They made a movie about something no one really cared about at all and did good numbers for it all based on the previous movies momentum.

Solo got the opposite effect from the previous movie.

So what explains TLJs success then if people didnt care for Rogue One?
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Corrik posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

Hot take: You fabricated that opinion to brush aside a legitimate inconsistency with the presentation of the character because you like TLJ's version more

Aside from the very end of RotJ, when does Luke ever face a difficult choice?

Going with Obi Wan.

As opposed to what, staying at a farm he never wanted to be at in the first place?
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

paperwarior posted...

But Rogue One was worse, all in all. The whole first act is full of characters who need to be compelling and aren't, and it was only really saved by some good action.

That's what I mean. They made a movie about something no one really cared about at all and did good numbers for it all based on the previous movies momentum.

Solo got the opposite effect from the previous movie.

So what explains TLJs success then if people didnt care for Rogue One?

People didn't dislike Rogue One. It is positive. It wasn't very polarizing. Some didn't think it was the best film. TLJ's success is based off of TFA's awakening though. Momentum was still there.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

Hot take: You fabricated that opinion to brush aside a legitimate inconsistency with the presentation of the character because you like TLJ's version more

Aside from the very end of RotJ, when does Luke ever face a difficult choice?

Going with Obi Wan.

As opposed to what, staying at a farm he never wanted to be at in the first place?

Up and leaving the life you live is a huge decision.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Aside from the very end of RotJ, when does Luke ever face a difficult choice?

Well first of all I don't understand how a lack of difficult choices to make means you didn't have a well defined character there.

Second of all did you watch the movies. Empire has at least one (going to Cloud City vs continuing teaching with Yoda) and A New Hope has at least one (going to the Death Star at all)

And both are choices where TLJ Luke chooses the opposite, btw. And obviously the end of RotJ TLJ Luke chooses the opposite.
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Corrik posted...

Attacking the Death Star instead of leaving with Han.

Taking off his visor and trusting the force.

Going to Cloud City against Yoda's wishes.

Like... that's just the few that come immediately to mind.

Doing what hes told

Doing what hes told

Ill give you Cloud City. It defines that he cares more about his friends than his training. Fair enough.
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Jakyl25 posted...

It defines that he cares more about his friends than his training. Fair enough.

A characterization that is directly at odds with TLJ Luke if we're keeping score btw
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Corrik posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

Hot take: You fabricated that opinion to brush aside a legitimate inconsistency with the presentation of the character because you like TLJ's version more

Aside from the very end of RotJ, when does Luke ever face a difficult choice?

Going with Obi Wan.

As opposed to what, staying at a farm he never wanted to be at in the first place?

Up and leaving the life you live is a huge decision.

A decision he had already made before the movie started
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Lopen posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

It defines that he cares more about his friends than his training. Fair enough.

A characterization that is directly at odds with TLJ Luke if we're keeping score btw

How so? He wasnt staying on that planet to train, he was staying there out of fear.
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Lukewarm take: anyone who thinks that character wasn't Luke is dumb as hell and can go back to playing with their action figures
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Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

It defines that he cares more about his friends than his training. Fair enough.

A characterization that is directly at odds with TLJ Luke if we're keeping score btw

How so? He wasnt staying on that planet to train, he was staying there out of fear.

What???
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Anyway, if we are assigning blame percents for Solos performance:

The Most Awful Timing Imaginable: 60%
Bad Marketing: 20%
Han Solo movie with no Harrison Ford: 15%
TLJ Backlash: 5%
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He was staying on that planet out of fear (when one of his defining characteristics of the OT, particularly in ANH, was courage almost to a fault) and completely isolated himself from his friends who needed him (when one of his defining characteristics of the OT was placing his friends above all else)

He also showed doubts on Kylo Ren (when he very stubbornly knew there was good in Vader despite having a lot more evidence Vader was long gone than Kylo was)

All the while clinging to "ancient Jedi texts" (putting value on Jedi tradition and training and stuff when he pretty much did none of that in the OT)

I'm not saying there isn't a path his character could take to reach that point, but the movie did a very poor job on fleshing out what that path would be to the point where it feels more like an inconsistent character than character development. There's a reason Mark Hamill had issues with the character to begin with before the Disney Mafia threatened to break his legs.

And it's not like I'm even a big fan of Luke Skywalker as a character or anything.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Anyway, if we are assigning blame percents for Solos performance:

The Most Awful Timing Imaginable: 60%
Bad Marketing: 20%
Han Solo movie with no Harrison Ford: 15%
TLJ Backlash: 5%

IMO

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Lopen posted...

He was staying on that planet out of fear (when one of his defining characteristics of the OT, particularly in ANH, was courage almost to a fault) and completely isolated himself from his friends who needed him (when one of his defining characteristics of the OT was placing his friends above all else)

He also showed doubts on Kylo Ren (when he very stubbornly knew there was good in Vader despite having a lot more evidence Vader was long gone than Kylo was)

All the while clinging to "ancient Jedi texts" (putting value on Jedi tradition and training and stuff when he pretty much did none of that in the OT)

I'm not saying there isn't a path his character could take to reach that point, but the movie did a very poor job on fleshing out what that path would be to the point where it feels more like an inconsistent character than character development. There's a reason Mark Hamill had issues with the character to begin with before the Disney Mafia threatened to break his legs.

And it's not like I'm even a big fan of Luke Skywalker as a character or anything.

Mark Hamil has been talking out about his character again last I saw.

"They had time for me to milk that space cow, but time to show real emotion? Hah! But again... it's not my call..." - Mark Hamil.
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Corrik posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

It defines that he cares more about his friends than his training. Fair enough.

A characterization that is directly at odds with TLJ Luke if we're keeping score btw

How so? He wasnt staying on that planet to train, he was staying there out of fear.

What???

Oh, did you not see the movie?

He was so scared of creating another Kylo that he just noped the fuck out of galactic society, under the pretense of guarding some old books that no one was coming for.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

It defines that he cares more about his friends than his training. Fair enough.

A characterization that is directly at odds with TLJ Luke if we're keeping score btw

How so? He wasnt staying on that planet to train, he was staying there out of fear.

What???

Oh, did you not see the movie?

He was so scared of creating another Kylo that he just noped the fuck out of galactic society, under the pretense of guarding some old books that no one was coming for.

That's not how I would describe that.
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Xiahou Shake posted...

Seeing (more like hearing) about people being upset about TLJ is really funny to me since I think it's easily the best Star Wars since Empire.

Yeah. It really confuses me tbh
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OT Luke's reaction to "creating another Kylo" is to "fight to the death to try and turn him back to the light and undo your mistake" not "curl in a ball and run away" btw
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Lopen posted...

I'm not saying there isn't a path his character could take to reach that point, but the movie did a very poor job on fleshing out what that path would be to the point where it feels more like an inconsistent character than character development.

I can meet you here.
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Lopen posted...

OT Luke's reaction to "creating another Kylo" is to "fight to the death to try and turn him back to the light and undo your mistake" not "curl in a ball and run away" btw

Question since youre clearly more invested in Star Wars than I am:

Would Luke have fought to bring out the good in Vader if he wasnt his father?

Granted Kylo is his nephew so he has skin in that fight too.
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Corrik posted...

The Most Awful Timing Imaginable: 60%
Bad Marketing: 20%
Han Solo movie with no Harrison Ford: 15%
TLJ Backlash: 5%

Swap TLJ Backlash and Bad Marketing and I think I'd agree with your percentages. Hell maybe even put Harrison Ford at 20% and TLJ Backlash at 15%. I think the marketing is overblown mostly because I feel Rogue One's marketing was similarly bad and it did completely fine.
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