Board 8 > Survivor Crew Ranks The Survivor Seasons

(+) Yeah! (+)

I think it is not as bad in HHH because there is still Ben's whole story, rigged or not.
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eaedwards6400 posted...

I think it is not as bad in HHH because there is still Ben's whole story, rigged or not.

Ben's story is what KILLED HHH.

Chrissy, Ryan, Devon, Mike, Lauren, Joe, Cole and Jessica were all compelling characters with season-long arcs that really tried their hardest to put on a good show. Even a few early boots like Alan, Patrick and Simone were fun and interesting. But Ben's shoehorned, questionably legitimate victory at the end combined with going from being a decent guy to an unbearable asshole just left a bad taste at the end of what could have been a top 10 season.
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HHH could have been incredible but they ruined it with spoon-feeding Ben idols and not giving anyone forewarning of the twist at the end that was hugely advantageous to Ben. I like Ben and all, but he should have been 4th place. Devon or Chrissy would have won - Devon could have articulated his case quite well and the hard evidence to prove it was in him voting for Dr. Mike solely on a hunch.

It's notable that you call Ben "an unbearable asshole" and say that plummets the season's ranking for you. It's precisely why Kaoh Rong's ranking plummeted for me. Scot and Jason were unbearable. They reminded me of some of the most vindictive bullies I dealt with in my life. And that they got the last laugh at the end ruined the overall story for me. Also, there was Joe del Campo's unnecessary Medevac - they just treated him in the medical tent and he didn't need a hospital, therefore he shouldn't have been removed from the game. Had that not happened and Aubry won, Kaoh Rong would have been much higher for me. I look at it the same way you look at HHH.

Sure, it's a good character season, and Scot's blindside is one of the best things ever in Survivor, but the dark, negative parts ruin Kaoh Rong for me.
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ghost island is frustrating because it feels like it could've been a good season, but somehow really wasn't. i'm not sure if it's the editing or the advantages or bad luck or what, but unlike say thailand or all-stars or redemption island, which all just felt like they never had a chance, ghost island seems like it should've been able to get off the ground.

like, say we replay ghost island again with the same cast (a la brant steele), i think you get a better season more than 95% of the time.
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kaoh rong and cambodia both rule btw, that was one of the most fun and enjoyable back-to-back season combos in survivor history imho
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I guess I dont hate Ben as much as other lol
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bwburke94 posted...

While I appreciate the Survivor history scattered throughout, and the fact that they actually cast a very high ratio of superfans this year, for a season that was clearly intended to be mostly fanservice, they really fucked it up.

yeah i can't believe how this was squandered.

going in, my hype was pretty up there because of the fanservice aspect and it was almost like i was rediscovering my Survivor interest after bingeing all the seasons that i missed.

that second swap really killed it for me and i bounced after the merge ep. cast of 20 + spending like 5 minutes with all those flashbacks to earlier seasons blech.

KujikawaRising posted...

Cambodia...both.

This post is what I tend to mean when I say Cambodia ruined the franchise (but Andy's saying it in a much less antagonistic fashion than I do, admittedly.) I personally dislike Cambodia for a variety of reasons, but it's beloved by the fanbase as a whole for one reason or another. And I think that the producers saw Cambodia's popularity and took lessons from that without necessarily understanding WHY Cambodia worked for most people. That's why we have seasons like Game Changers which--and I will defend this statement to the death, because it's true--followed the same beats and plot structure as Cambodia, yet was far more poorly-received.

To me, I think Cambodia started from a strong position with the fanbase that, barring a generic Pagonging, would've been well-received no matter what. The whole lead-up was destined to be popular. You provide a list of players and let the fans personally choose the cast (from the group of players pre-selected by the producers)? That gets fans invested because they have players they're guaranteed to root for, and even the least popular choices can at least be shrugged off by saying "well at least it wasn't *insert person who got even FEWER fan votes*". That's the MAIN difference between Cambodia are less popular modern seasons like Game Changers and Ghost Island: the fans had DIRECT input on the casting (and the producers knew from vote counts EXACTLY who was popular, and thus who to give more screen time to, thus amplifying the fans' satisfaction.)

I think the casting in Cambodia allowed the producers to get away with a lot more than they could in Game Changers and HHH and Ghost Island (and MvGX in my opinion, but people love that season for some reason), and fans were willing to overlook a lot of things that would later become glaring flaws in seasons with less fan investment. The return of oversized casts, a bloated post-merge, six-person finale, twists and idols being more heavy-handed to force interesting game play rather than allowing for more organic game play. And I genuinely don't think the producers get that this is a problem. Hell, even though Game Changers got panned by the fans, they still tried to pimp it out hardcore in Ghost Island. And that's a season that definitively DIDN'T work for most people.
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You're absolutely right on a lot of that, Inviso - but the other thing was that the cast in Cambodia clicked way better than several of the seasons that followed. They were all motivated to do their voters proud. That is the fundamental difference not only in fan investment but in gameplay. Everyone was playing their heart out. That was missing from Lame Changers, HHH, and Ghost Island. The joy was gone. MvX had that joy, it had people playing to win, it had a compelling group of people.

The producers' attempts to replicate Cambodia have failed because 1) the cast wasn't chosen by fans - investing both the viewers and the players, 2) they have stripped away the soul of the show, the showcase of personality and/or character arcs that haven't been present in these last three seasons, 3) the edits have been formulaic and have disregarded the castaways for who they are in an attempt to shoehorn them into redundant archetypes, and 4) the formula is so "played out" - it worked for Cambodia because it was new then. Now, with every downside you said, it's all played out. The 2:3 swaps, the casts of 20 in newbie seasons, the multiple advantages and excessive amount of idols, unnecessary twists, highly abbreviated finales, and the overall lack of joy have all become exhaustive to watch because it's nothing new. The show has fallen into a formula that worked once but has only worked decently once since - and that's because it was LESS in-your-face (MvX).

The reason I'm so disengaged with Survivor now is not because I can't help choose a cast. It's because the castaways have become characters on a screen instead of real people being agog with excitement to be on Survivor. It's because I don't feel a connection to most of the cast - and the one time I did, she got voted out tragically fast. It's because the edit is more focused on developing advantages and twists than it is players. I have no reason to care about the players anymore because the show doesn't give it to me - they're gamebots more than real people. The show has lost its sense of self and, while it recovered from that once before, it's highly improbable that it will again. Production has too much a hand in the narrative now given how they plant idols, have twists, and "push" contestants in certain ways. I doubt there will ever be another Cagayan that plays out naturally and epically because production is unknowingly preventing that from happening. It's sad.
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I do wonder if what you guys are saying lead to the ousting of Lynne. Like maybe she is getting the brunt of the blame for what is boring seasons. Production thinks it is the cast when in fact it is the overindulgence of fear to make moves because no one wants to become Cirie when in actuality Survivor is thinking:" if you don't want to be Cirie go find your own idol! They are all out there!"
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eaedwards6400 posted...

I do wonder if what you guys are saying lead to the ousting of Lynne. Like maybe she is getting the brunt of the blame for what is boring seasons. Production thinks it is the cast when in fact it is the overindulgence of fear to make moves because no one wants to become Cirie when in actuality Survivor is thinking:" if you don't want to be Cirie go find your own idol! They are all out there!"

I think something internal happened. You don't just unilaterally fire one person that has been an integral part of production for 19 years because a few seasons in a row have been duds.
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Game Changers and HHH both had casts playing to win. Even Troyzan thought he still had a chance as late as the final seven. I don't disagree with MOST of your problems with modern seasons...but I think those flaws you mention existed in Cambodia and MvGX, yet neither season gets nearly the same level of hatred. Just looking at your list from the previous page:

1. Wentworth clearly having fun the entire time by being highly strategy-focused and really only having the one great moment where she blindsided savage, but I was willing to root for her because the other side was so robotic in their gameplay.

2. Keith Nale's "You Call, We'll Haul" mostly ignored in the season aside from two memorable moments. He went from huge fan favorite in SJDS to irrelevant footnote despite playing the exact same game both times and making a similar placement both times.

3. Jeremy playing for his family everyone plays for their family. Domenick played for his family. Having a person talk about this occasionally doesn't automatically make them interesting.

4. Spencer's semi-cheesy "relationship building" story arc Absolutely the worst part of the entire season. It was completely fake, given the 10-0-0 blowout, and it only served to make Spencer look like a robot.

5. Chaos Kass actually improving her social game by leaps and bounds I'll agree with this, but then she got booted at the merge for actually bothering to try and improve her position in the game.

6. Fishbach claiming his "Know-It-All" status and trying to play to live up to it I'll agree with this as well, but I think what made Stephen work for me in Cambodia (my favorite character of the season) was not just trying to prove his skills, but being so traumatized by how he lost Tocantins that he overplayed trying to take out Cambodia's "J.T." while simultaneously being a complete trainwreck, physically.

7. Varner's attempts to make deals with everybody and try to play the modern Survivor game No. Just straight-up no. Varner has always been the SAME exact person in Survivor: he's a guy who fancies himself the second-coming of Richard Hatch, and that's what we got in Cambodia, to the possible detriment of the season. I liked Varner more in GAME CHANGERS, up until his delusional dickbaggery at the reunion.

8. Terry Deitz being pulled from the game like that. Meh.

9. Hell, even Kimmi. Wild, crazy character gets brought back and edited into a nothing background character until she tries to make a move and gets booted as a result.

10. Abi-Maria She was the biggest character of the first four episodes, behaving erratically and controlling a lot of the game, but the second the editors could do so, they sent her to the background and made the story revolve around sturdier, more controlled characters. Woo's boot painted her as invisible despite her relationship with Woo being a major plot point up until that episode.

I feel like, again, people were invested in the cast pre-season, so they feel more apt to build them up as bigger than they really WERE in reality.
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I pretty much agree with everything Inviso said there.

Kass > Abi > Keith > Stephen > Terry due to circumstances > the rest of the cast I honestly couldn't care about other than being glad Jeremy won because he lives two towns away from me.
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I think the thing I will agree with the most in your take Inviso, is the Abi thing. How we don't get a confessional of her thinking of voting for Woo cause "he voted me twice" is absolutely a crime.

I disagree to a small extent on Spencer. I think that is just your Anti-Spencer bias.

I need to disagree extremely about Jeremy. Jeremy is talking bout Val since day 1. You have the scene where Savage talks about his wife and then Jeremy has to take a walk and then Savage is like disgusted with Fish for taking it back to strategy. And then the whole, I'm having a baby thing, and then how the idols are VAL'S idol. I just have a hard time not watching Cambodia and not seeing that Jeremy's entire story is that he's playing for Val. I know everyone plays for their family but it was definitely special for Jeremy. Like you just compared it to Dom and outside of his wife coming out and then him saying I may need to cut Wendell because my real alliance is my family are like the only time's that Dom mentioned his family. The baby storyline and the Val storyline were definetly alive and well in Cambodia. Maybe it's cause I have my own family now but idk how you can yada-yada it as a story.
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Jeremy playing for Val felt as relevant and focused upon as Dom playing for his family. In that it was occasionally there to humanize him as a winner, but ultimately was overshadowed by the edit's focus on strategy strategy strategy.
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If you believe that then you gotta rewatch Cambodia. He talks about Val in just about every episode.
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eaedwards6400 posted...

If you believe that then you gotta rewatch Cambodia. He talks about Val in just about every episode.

He talked about Val a lot but it was a one-note distraction from the fact that he was a gamebot, and that's a reflection of the edit, not Jeremy as a person, because SJDS proved that he can be a fun and interesting character when he doesn't do well in the game. If his edit had been primarily focused on building relationships, especially with the other parents on the season (and there were a ton of them), his Val story would have been more engrossing.
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Then maybe I dont know what a storyline is because to me that's a storyline
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Wentworth is awesome. FACT.
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Underleveled posted...

I pretty much agree with everything Inviso said there.

Kass > Abi > Keith > Stephen > Terry due to circumstances > the rest of the cast I honestly couldn't care about other than being glad Jeremy won because he lives two towns away from me.

Same town, never met him or Val =(
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KujikawaRising posted...

Wentworth is awesome. FACT.

Wentworth is awesome as an underdog in opposition to a dominant alliance, in a season that doesn't have a whole bunch of personality otherwise. As an individual character, I don't know how much I'd enjoy her outside of Cambodia.
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One of the other major problems with Cambodia (although I'll fully admit that this was brewing for several seasons prior, and it's one of the few things I don't think production is entirely to blame for) is how strategy-focused it is. That's another reason why I think Cambodia is the season that utterly BROKE Survivor. It's kind of a two-pronged thing: one is the fans' fault I think, but the other part is the editors' fault.

First, I know people are tired of me bringing gender into stuff all the time, but I think that, whether organically or as a result of the producers creating a Pavlovian reaction, the fanbase has developed very specific tastes as to what they like. And first and foremost, that taste leans towards a preference for male winners. Seriously, I would say that, despite having some really strong female strategists in Sarah Lacina, Natalie Anderson, Denise Stapley, and Kim Spradlin, the last time the fans actually liked and rooted for a female winner (and subsequently loved the season she won) was Sandra in HvV. And even then, I doubt she would've received that same praise if that win didn't come with the moniker of "first two-time champion". Which means prior to Sandra, you have to go back to PARVATI for an example of a fan-favorite female winner...and that's honestly about it. Maybe Tina as the first one, but female winners have a poor record of gaining respect overall.

And what I believe fans like is: a strategically dominant male winner, BUT they also want to have SOME shake-ups just for the sake of shake-ups, so you don't get a universally derided season like Redemption Island. Cagayan is a perfect example of this. I think MvGX is given a pass because even though David lost, he was that strategically dominant player (and the producers added the fire-making tiebreaker soon after his lost). Even Ghost Island, the second that tie vote came around, a bunch of apologists came out of the woodwork to say that the season wasn't THAT bad (because the tie was unexpected.)

Cambodia is the culmination of this attitude though, 'cause Jeremy pretty much runs the season, uncontested until the final 6. There are some shake-ups that don't affect his dominance at all (Kelley's idol, the Stephen blindside, the final six tribal council), but they give a faux air of unpredictability. And since this and Cagayan are so beloved, the producers naturally want to give the fans more winners like Jeremy and Tony (dominant alpha males that weathered brief shake-ups).

Less fan-related though is the OTHER strategy-related aspect of Cambodia: the fact that the editors are lazy. I feel like Cambodia was the season that taught the editors: "Hey, you know what would be easier than crafting a season-long narrative with nuance and subtlety? Just make each episode a stand-alone arc. Who cares about the interpersonal dynamics and reasoning as to WHY the players are choosing to make decisions when they do? The fans will LOVE it if the episode ends in a blindside, even if you only started building Kelly Wiglesworth as this massive social threat in the past twenty minutes." I feel like it IS easier for the editors to just half-ass things, and they can half-ass things while maintaining an interesting show for the fans if the players are just doing random strategy for the sake of strategy every episode. And that mindset started moreso in Cambodia than anywhere else. Then we get a season like Ghost Island (or Game Changers), and the editors have no idea why it was so poorly-received, because they're just doing the same shit fans were totally okay with in Cambodia.
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Yeah no I don't agree with that logic. No everything is sexist. Especially considering I recall Kim, Denise, and Natalie all being fairly well liked. Sarah was the one that everyone was groaning over. (Except for me I was all for it) I mean Natalie Anderson's badass strategy SHOULD NOT be overlooked

Also, our rank down topic has become another episode of the Survivor crew argues Survivor Cambodia.
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Inviso posted...

the last time the fans actually liked and rooted for a female winner (and subsequently loved the season she won) was Sandra in HvV

This is not true. Philippines is widely considered a top 10 if not top 5 season, and people loved Denise as a winner. Would they have preferred Malcolm? Yes. But Denise was the next best thing.
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I think theres been plenty of women fans have wanted to win...they just didnt. Going back the past few years, I think in general the more invested fans were rooting for Aubry and Chrissy.
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Yeah, you'd only have to go back to Kaoh Rong if Aubry won. And Michele's won is probably as responsible for all these twists as David's loss.
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I fought for Ghost Island to be bottom 5 pretty hard during the season and I now have it 2nd highest, huh
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#31: Caramoan
Average Ranking: 30.18

GTM: 23 - CGI Erik and CGI Brenda

DoctorBlind: 24 - Similar to other seasons with returning players, if my faves go out early or are given invisible edits for no reason despite making it far and having a large impact on the game, Im not going to enjoy myself. Also, Brandon Hantz is terrible.

Mana Sword: 28 - No writeup

eaed: 28 - I liked this season a lot more a few years ago after it first aired. It was so boring to start but as time progressed that merge made things exciting and while on the rewatch it is a lot more predictable in the real time I did not see everything coming and the Three Amigos move, and the Hold-Up Bro moments are much better in the real time. When they come out to nothing though it takes a lot of the wind out of the sails. Plus, then there is the whole Brandon Hantz thing and the Non-Jury not getting to be on stage that takes away from the season too.

Naye745: 30 - i'm happy with the winner, but this season had lots of problems. the entire fans tribe was a wash, Phillip and Brandon had way too much screen time (especially relative to the 5th and 6th place finishers!), and the one thing i remember most is Eddie's dog bar.
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BCT: 31 - The pre-merge of this season is hard to watch due to its focus on over-the-top hostile characters, two of which get staged comeuppances, and that stains the rest of the game except for Malcolm managing to make things epic for a while. The finale is easily the worst in the series, with one of the most predictable winners ever and easily telegraphed events aside from Brenda owning Dawn in a fashion that makes both of them hard to like.

FBike: 32 - This season was entertaining to watch, but it simply doesn't hold up. Pretty much everynoe acted like idiots most of the time.

Illuminatus: 33 - No writeup

darkx: 33 - Like Redemption Island, this one is just the producers stroking themselves to everything they think is good about Survivor but that the fans hate - a robotic cast that allows an overrated strategic player to win? Check. Combining returning players with the most fodderific of newbies to stomp all over? Check. The few ACTUAL fan favorites among the returning players turning into petty, dramatic camera whores? Check. The most entertaining moment of the season was the most epic and genuinely righteous meltdown in Survivor history, and even that feels dirty because he is clearly an unstable person who should never have been out there in the first place. The result was one actual decent episode of Survivor, two additional episodes that were entertaining due to circumstance, and 11 episodes of obnoxious try-hards trying to outdo each other for screen time.

Inviso: 35 - It was a tough call whether to rank Caramoan second or third to last, but ultimately, the fact that it embodies so much of whats wrong with modern Survivor is what bumps it into the bottom two. For one, as much as I bitch about Micronesia, at least it cast MOSTLY top tier favorites, and cast MOSTLY interesting fans. Caramoan feels like they cast one or two winners, built the favorites tribe around them, and threw in a bunch of fodder that never should have made it through the casting process. A lot of the season feels self-aware, with certain characters having big moments that ultimately dont really matter since theyre showier than anything else. The winner edit is far too straight-forward to the point where it almost insults the viewers intelligence, and a bunch of end gamers get crapped on again and again by the edit, and later by the host. Seriously, Caramoans reunion may just be the most offensive reunion the show has ever produced, with 3/5 of the players in the finale getting ignored, and the entire pre-merge cast getting shunted off-stage. Honestly, Id put it as the worst season ever, if not for a dynamic post-merge in comparison to Redemption Islands dull slog. Second-worst will have to do instead.

YoRyan: 35 - astoundingly bad on all accounts. Casting, editing, challenges etc. Even their "big moments" are terrible. And of course Phillip is satan in human form
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I don't know how you can call Caramoan's reunion the most offensive after the reunions we've had the last 2 seasons.
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Mewtwo59 posted...

I don't know how you can call Caramoan's reunion the most offensive after the reunions we've had the last 2 seasons.

Jeff spoke to the entire group comprising the final episode, and the pre-merge boots at least got to be on-stage.
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Actually, that only applies to HHH. But it just bugged me more in Caramoan because I had no expectations for GI whatsoever. Caramoan's reunion is the Cambodia of reunions, in that it ruined all future reunions by showing the producers how little of a shit they could give and still have the fanbase cheer for it.
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Yeah, but in Caramoan they didn't spend 10 minutes on a promo for Kevin Hart's Wipeout ripoff.
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Mewtwo59 posted...

I don't know how you can call Caramoan's reunion the most offensive after the reunions we've had the last 2 seasons.

Caramoan had more time and focused even less on the castaways to allow for Boston Rob to plug his new book and Hatch and Rudy to "reminisce" about Borneo in... inappropriate ways. And at least the HHH and GI finales let the pre-jury on stage.

The entire finale was terrible, however, not just the reunion. Mix that with one of the most intolerably cringe-worthy pre-merges the show will ever see and the end result is a clearly bottom-tier season.

If it weren't for Malcolm doing "Hold up, Bro" followed by his double-idol stunt, it would have been even lower on my list. The Phillip boot episode is one of the best in the entire series, but the rest of the season is just putrid to watch.

Inviso also touches on the point that there are barely any actual "favorites" here. Cochran and Andrea emerged, of course, but most of this cast has never and will never fulfill that label. Micronesia... all ten of them either were a "favorite" going in or became one during the course of that season. With Caramoan, it was obviously never going to be possible.
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bwburke94 posted...

Phillip is satan in human form

He's a nutcase and I totally get someone hating him but this is a comparison that shouldn't be made for anyone short of child rapists and serial killers.
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Brandon was obviously mentally unstable and should not have been allowed on the island. There was a serious risk that he might actually hurt someone.
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Invisio quit saying Cambodia everything so we can we can quit debating it lol
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yay im crazy again
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MvGX's reunion was pretty balanced. Only the first five boots didn't get to speak. While they SHOULD still get to, that's a hell of a lot better than we've been getting for the past five years. And they were arguably the five least interesting/relevant people of the season as it is, so that's fair.
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I don't think he needs to get to every person per se, but Jeff should allow at least 15 people per season to speak - with constraints for time and valuing the more relevant people. That said, in Ghost Island, Jacob and Morgan should have totally been asked questions (Morgan was still getting brought up at the FTC, so naturally) and, well, Stephanie Johnson was oddly not there (and that hurts her returnee chances), but she'd have gotten a question in a "traditional" reunion.

Sadly, I doubt we'll ever get another MvX-like reunion that addresses everything that needs to be in 30 minutes.

These are from my notes from the Cagayan reunion from a recent rewatch...
Runtime: 28:25
NO QUESTION: Brice, Lindsey, Alexis, Jeremiah, Jefra

Lindsey absolutely deserved to be ignored for quitting (she shouldn't have even been there), Jeremiah was the blandest person that season, and Brice was justifiable because he was gone early and isn't really remembered for anything he did on the show itself (as amazing as he is on RHAP). It's a shame Probst didn't get to Jefra, who could have been asked why she didn't make her Big Movez when she wanted to, or to Alexis even if it was to just ask her "Alexis, say you're there and Jeremiah isn't. Do you flip to LJ and Jefra at the merge?"

That said, there isn't much wrong with the Cagayan reunion, aside from it perhaps needing another 60 seconds to touch base with those two girls.
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God the Beauty Tribe sucked in Cagayan.
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lol morgan
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Morgan didn't "need" to be asked a question any more than any of the other early boots. I hate him, but Bradley would've been ahead of her in line.
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GTM posted...

lol morgan

There are two really big reasons to like her.
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As far as I am aware, the first reunion show at which not all of the contestants got to speak was Samoa, at which John and Liz were left out, presumably by accident. I still remember noticing on its live airing when the credits started rolling and the live audio was cut, Jeff goes over to the contestants, and John motions to Jeff, Jeff puts out his hand like he's going to shake it, then John says something and Jeff just freezes with this "oh shit" look on his face.

Since then, there have only been two reunions where the full cast got to speak - HvV and Philippines (technically Dawson didn't speak but that was her choice; she ran up to Probst and made out with him instead). BvW had 19/20 (omitting Marissa).
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wrong morgan I was lolling at
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I thought we were talking about Morgan from the beauty tribe. My mistake.
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I guess lol can apply to both morgans
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GTM posted...

I guess lol can apply to both morgans

What about Morgan from Guatemala? Or the Morgan tribe from Pearl Islands?
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bwburke94 posted...

Or the Morgan tribe from Pearl Islands?

Abso fucking lutely
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