Board 8 > Board 8 National Football League League (B8NFLL) Season 11: The Offseason

(+) Yeah! (+)

Vinson Trade (I was mistaken, it was the 36th pick not 42nd)

Shattered

Hey

I'll give you the 2nd I'm receiving in that Chiefs trade (4th in round so pick 36 overall) for Bryan Vinson if you're interested

Scare

Im down for that

Murdock Trade

Shattered

Hey,

Would you be interested in trading Ashton Youboty for one of your WRs? Either Colston or Murdock or McPhearson?

Youboty is CB59 in terms of league rankings by ratings. An 83 WR is WR59. So works out pretty evenly.

I could also toss in SS Levi Marquardt to fill your hole at SS on a cheap contract.

Nee

Yes, we can work this out. Would Murdock for Youboty work? If you need to offset the cap difference between the players, I can take Levi Marquardt too, but I don't need that player otherwise.

Marquardt Trade

Shattered

Hey,

I see you have 3 SS's and I only have 1. I'll give you a 5th round pick for Levi Marquardt. Frees up some cap space for you and saves me drafting one (which I'd likely do with the 5th round pick anyway)

Deadpool

Yeah I'd be interested in this.

Banks/Cox Trade

Wiz

Steelers Receive: SS Ian Cox (91)

Cowboys Receive: Steelers First Round Draft Pick (9th overall)

Shattered

That's a really good offer. I'm definitely interested but I have another offer on that pick right now so I have 2 counter offers.

Offer 1 (This would be part of a 3 way trade)
Steelers Receive: SS Ian Cox (91)
Cowboys Receive: Titans 1st Round (Pick 18)

Offer 2
Steelers Receive: SS Ian Cox (91) + CB Trumaine Banks (85)
Wizards Receive: Steelers 1st Round (Pick 9) + CB Ashton Youboty (78) OR DE Lamarr Woodley (82)

Just so you know on that first deal, KCF (who owns that 1st round pick I'm offering) set me a deadline of Sunday to give him an answer on the trade.

Wiz

I'll take offer #2 if you still want to.

My take on cap management / team development is this (and this may/may not be wrong)

If your team isn't very good then players are typically worth more than draft picks. Dropping draft picks into a bad side just results in them not developing. Whereas dropping in established players will likely improve performance and possibly result in development of existing players. And undeveloped rookie contracts are awful (see RG3 picking up 4.9m this year as a 78 QB when an 81 QB wants 3.5m per year) so can lead to cap issues / team being perpetually bad. Plus trading draft picks for players likely saves you cap space due to the guaranteed money being paid by the original team.

An example of this is I drafted DT Gerald McCoy who went from 80 > 83 after his rookie year. Then I started him as DT1 and he dropped from 83 > 82 after a bad season. I brought in DT Randy Starks (88) and McCoy jumped from 82 > 85 and played a lot better. I'm sure my better win record played a factor too.

If your team is good or has good parts of then draft picks become more valuable since you can drop those players into the team and there's a good chance they will develop. They don't always have to even be bonafide starters. Just rotating in for snaps or due to injuries is sometimes enough. The drafted players then becomes more valuable due to his rookie contract being cheaper than his rating.

KCF is a prime example of this. He can bring in those later round picks who sit behind established starters in great units and keep developing. He had Osmele (91), Fletcher (89) and Bell (85) up for RFA this year which means they were all likely drafted in the 2nd-4th round as like 75-80 rated players who were able to sit and develop and by RFA time he's either getting back 1st rounders for them or gets that cheap RFA year of contract before deciding to either keep them or move them on in a sign and trade. Like last season he drafted C Weston Richburg as a 75 and I doubt he played much, if at all, but he jumped up to an 81 this year. Whereas I'm sure if he was drafted to a worse team I doubt he sees that growth.

2nd to 4th round picks are actually really good for cap purposes I think just due to that 4th year being an RFA year. So you either get a cheap year contract out of them or you get a high draft return on them. Even if the player doesn't develop at all, the lowest tender is very likely cheaper than any similarly rated player at that position. I guess theoretically you can offer 5-7th round picks 3 year deals too to trigger RFA but I know rookies can throw out silly demands if you mess with the years on their initial contract.

I appreciate all you had to say KCF.

I personally try to hold of on trading with new users until at least a year, so they can survey the lay of the land and get a feel of things to avoid the exact scenario you're talking about. It's natural for someone who's been in the league longer to have an advantage when it comes to this stuff. I remember I made several trade proposals my first year or two that were just so lopsided because I had no scope of what was worth how much. It takes time to get used to.

With that said, I think we users need to be sure to use the veto if we truly feel it's needed. Not wanted, needed. I know The Trade was a highly divisive moment in this project's history, and I hate that it happened. But we need to realize that people will have differences of opinion, and that we will never use the veto just to strike down something that we feel will help the competition get the leg up on us. I know people who play fantasy like that, they'll vote against any trade not involving them because it helps 2 teams who aren't them. I think that's bad, and I think we need to just trust that none of us here are that way. IT IS OKAY to have differences of opinion! Those differences are good to have around, because it helps both sides view things in ways they perhaps hadn't thought about before. Discussion is good for the league. If you are part of a trade, and some people veto it, don't hold that against them, they aren't out to get you. They just want to be sure that both sides are getting a fair shake.

I personally don't think that every trade needs to be exactly 50/50. If a team is desperate, then players/picks go up in value to that user relative to the rest of the league, and I don't think it's wrong to take advantage of that. Someone's starting MLB just go down for the year in preseason? You know a user is targeting a player in the draft and you hold the current pick you know they want? Shoot em a trade asking for more than you normally would! You aren't screwing them over by doing that, the burden is on them to decide if it's worth it. Just don't pressure them on it, y'know? Let them be able to walk away if they want to. If it's accepted, even if the trade at it's core is a slight mismatch, that user who is getting the MLB isn't just giving away stuff for free, they got a useful piece! If I had high hopes for my team that year, and felt like that player going down significantly decreases my chances, I would much rather pay a little more to get a guy that can help me now rather than wait and "maybe" get something for equal value. Isn't that the premise upon which UFA is built, anyway? Pay more than a guy is worth to get him. Why should trading be any different? Again, this is all my opinion, and it's okay for people to disagree.
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RE: Cap space

Something that I personally struggle with in managing my cap space is wanting to do a lot at once, then being set for a while. I like uniformity and the league just does not work that way. I like having all my QBs expire at once, but it's not good. I like having all my best players expire at once, but it's not good. I like spending lots in FA to make a splash, to be the talk of the league, then not need to do anything for a while, but it's just not good. You need to have them spread out.

The biggest year in UFA I had was signing OT Whitworth and HB Bush to big deals, and I am just now starting to get out of the hole that those signings put me in. I had to restructure last year because I was in such a bind. Bush is making 10 mil this year. Bush has been great when he's been healthy, but much to I'm sure KCF's happiness (he told me so), I do kind of regret giving him that deal because HB is just so deep. It's important to keep track of where the thinnest positions are, and base your signings on that. Overpaying for an LB is a lot easier to swallow than overpaying for a HB, or a K.

You need to spread your players expiry years out. If you sign a bunch of dudes to 3 year deals, then on that 3rd year you will be hurting big time. It seems like most of the time I have 20+ dudes expiring any given year, and I need to do a better job of that. It makes that year you re-sign them pretty good, because they're making lower money than they will later on, but in all likelihood, the year before will have been hell because all those guys were making higher money than they were earlier on. You have to find that balance of guys on the front, vs guys on the tail ends of their deals.

RE: Growth
I pretty much echo Shattered's mindset on this. If you're bad, you don't need picks, you need players. That's what the pumpkins did. They didn't amass lots of picks, they went ham in FA, and their normal picks supplemented it. If you're on the flipside and you have a good cycle going like KCF, you want picks to keep that influx of young talent ready to take over when it's their time.
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Also I do want to say I appreciate everything you said KCF and I don't want my posts to be taken overly negatively. I just wanted to defend myself if it was my trades that raised the issue as I never intentionally misled anyone or tried to take advantage of another user in a trade. So sorry if it comes across negatively

I actually made the position comparisons sheet because I wanted to help users make fairer trades and to be able to evaluate the worth of their players more.

Like Emerald I typically avoid trading with new users and try help them evaluate player values better. I know my opinion of player values now is vastly different to my first 3 seasons where I made some big blunders with trades and drafting.

Im thankful for you, KCF for continuing to run this and dealing with the rest of us

You the real MVP
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Emeraldegg posted...

The biggest year in UFA I had was signing OT Whitworth and HB Bush to big deals, and I am just now starting to get out of the hole that those signings put me in. I had to restructure last year because I was in such a bind. Bush is making 10 mil this year. Bush has been great when he's been healthy, but much to I'm sure KCF's happiness (he told me so), I do kind of regret giving him that deal because HB is just so deep. It's important to keep track of where the thinnest positions are, and base your signings on that. Overpaying for an LB is a lot easier to swallow than overpaying for a HB, or a K.

I too remember this being I think my first off-season and fortunately being slightly outbid by you as I didn't realize what a bad idea it was to spend all that many on Bush even though he was highly rated and only like 26. Thank you for saving me, Emerald.

As for trade stuff... I don't know. I don't want to say anything that will upset anyone, but I also don't want people to be afraid of making trades because they're afraid of being judged harshly or whatever.

Nobody is suggesting that anyone should be afraid of making trades? I just desire for people to first and foremost don't be self-serving dicks and also put in the effort to understand why you are making the trade, how you came up with the trade, and what the perceived short and long-term ramifications of the trade are. For a trade to be truly consensual, I think that transparency and a thorough understanding from various angles are required.

Now I know that I have plenty of room for improvement, but I feel like I at least touch base on all points in my trade talks. Using an example from this offseason, when I initiated discussions with prof regarding LG Damien Bell, here are some of the things that crossed my mind:
- Kendall Simmons will still be almost certainly be playing for me beyond this season, so I would have to pay Bell a lot of money to be a backup in Season 12. That is money I can probably not afford. I also have a logjam at interior OL that I should test to see if they will be future replacements for Simmons and Todd McClure. Having him sit on my bench is kind of a waste, and he has some trade value. Who is a team that could really use him?
- Mike Wahle just retired for the Wildcats. With Tyron Smith likely slotting over to fill Rex Tucker's spot at RT, they just has some low-rated youngsters and upper-70s vets to take over at LG.
- The free agent market is stocked with 30-something stop-gap solutions that are all lower-rated than Bell.
- Wildcats have a ton of cap space, but they will likely focus on using what remains after UFAs on defense in the draft and free agency and could greatly benefit from having already filled one gaping hole who will only count $1.89 mil against the cap.
- Damien Bell is 24 and 85 overall. He is largely untested so I can't really use his small sample size as a pro or con.
- With Bell's age and rating, being a part of a prolific Wildcats offense with three high-rated OL to play along side could see him developing quickly and perhaps help out Jimmy Clauson's development.
- I think that he's worth a little more than a 3rd but not the Wildcats' 34th overall pick. I see that I have a bunch of early round picks from the Bills and 49ers. I think that the 3rd plus some small trade downs is close enough to fair value for Bell. Let's see what prof thinks.

Not all of this got translated to my PM to prof, but most of it was. Upon checking I forgot to talk about the initial Dolphins angle. I almost always preface trade initiation PMs with me trying to reduce present or future salary cap obligations, because that is the driving force for almost every trade I have made in the past three or so seasons. I do remember though that I tried to get a particular draft pick for the novelty of having so many consecutive picks (something like four or five) last season. Back on track, that was really a big goof from me, but overall I do see myself as a transparent, thorough trade partner, and I hope others are too and if they aren't, they will follow suit.
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As an aside, I will probably start opening PMs in about two hours. I saw someone enter the spreadsheet while I was in there, but the chat button never popped up. I am starting to get concerned that I am the only one unable to enter the chat. I hope a solution presents itself, but I want people to be mentally prepared to have the draft be moved to the B8 Discord channel if nothing does in the next few weeks.
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If you're on right now, I can try and get in the spreadsheet and see if it lets us chat.

Okay, I will get on within a minute.
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You could always create a second google account and sign in on an incognito tab and see if it let's you chat / chat shows up

Sometimes sheets is weird as hell. My positions comparison sheet from last season it literally will not open on mobile but if I copy and paste it over to a new sheet it works fine

I can definitely enter the chat. stevr suggested that the reason why the chat button wouldn't show up for me could be due to the other users being signed in having been on a mobile device and not a desktop or laptop. As we found out a few seasons ago, you can only enter the chat function on a desktop or mobile.
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I got through all but a few of the PMs. It turns out that only a few actually contained signings, so I was able to get through more than I thought.

I'm still not able to send the Seahawks their info.
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So would you advise against benching a highly drafted QB for a year with a team like the Chiefs?

And wow. that's a lot to take in. I'm usually very skittish when it comes to trading, but when i do, i try to make it fair for both parties to the best of my knowledge. I'm still learning though.
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Ranlom posted...

I'm usually very skittish when it comes to trading, but when i do, i try to make it fair for both parties to the best of my knowledge. I'm still learning though.

I think that's all anyone is asking, really. Just make your best effort to be fair about it. There's a difference between honestly just not having a great scope of what's valuable to whom, vs trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes (which sounds like what kcf is referring to here). I know one year, might have been my 2nd, I made a couple really bad trade proposals and I heard about it later, but KCF was gracious because he knew I was still learning and just didn't know any better. I don't think anyone can begrudge you for such things.
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User/AI trade proposal

Panthers receive:
LOLB Karlos Dansby

Raiders receive:
TE Chris Cooley

Just a swap of 33-year-old vets to fill larger holes for each team. Raiders will be accepting a $2.18 mil cap penalty for those who wish to know.

This is up for 24 hour peer review, and Emerald needs to confirm.
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Ranlom posted...

So would you advise against benching a highly drafted QB for a year with a team like the Chiefs?

If we are talking about the #1 overall pick and if you plan to more or less stand pat for the rest of your roster, keeping him on the bench would be a colossal waste in my opinion. If you use a second rounder or acquire another 1st and use that on a QB, that wouldn't be a terrible idea as you know it is a given that Jacobs is going to be pulled or injured at some point during the season. That way, he can still get some experience on hopefully develop a little.
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I confirm that trade. Cooley is rated 6 points higher but LB is a much thinner position.
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So apparently I am part of the reason for the trade issues

and thats probably more my fault since I guess I just am still bad at the money situation. Like even last year with Cam I showed how inept I was so

I suppose I will be more dilligent in the future
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https://pics.me.me/teacher-the-lowest-grade-on-the-test-was-a-26-28690290.png

literally me with the current trade issues
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I should be caught up with all the PMs now.

49ers cut CB Oscar Vincent and HB Frank Gore.
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99 rated FB Hermandoler is on the trade block btw
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I don't think many people look at the trading block sheet, so I am going to mention here that I'm willing to deal these assets:
- 19th overall pick
- 23rd overall pick
- WR Kenny O'Neal
- P Tom Malone
- LOLB DeAndre Levy
- CB Kareem Jackson

I don't really need or want additional first round picks, so I am open to trading either one plus probably the Wildcats 4th for two 2nds since I currently possess the max of 10 draft picks. I would probably be then forced to trade the other for a future 1st.

Kenny O'Neal has the highest career YPC for any receiver with 200+ career receptions. However, he is a luxury for me at this point. It would have to be through a sign-and-trade. I'm probably not going to re-sign him, but I expect him to a much sought after FA target, so now is your chance to get him before having to offer him an above market deal. I originally thought that I was going to send him to a particular team, but they haven't talked with me about O'Neal in almost a month, so I am making O'Neal available to anyone.

Malone is the top P in the league and is tied for third among active players in career punting average and second in net average. I need to get salary relief and going cheaper at punter is an option for me. I might be inclined to keep him if no trade is made.

Levy and Jackson are not players that I am actively trying to move, but I am willing to listen to offers given their age, rating, and play at a position that several users have been seeking. Their standalone value probably isn't worth it for me to move on from them, so they would likely have to be a package deal with the above assets.

I have made 13 first round selections, and due to my loyal nature, all are still on my team. While it will be sad to see some of these guys go, my cap situation dictates that I should hear other teams out.

I'm mostly looking for pick upgrades and future picks. I could be open to a roster upgrade, but I am kind of picky about who I choose to be on my team. Draft picks are the much easier and simpler way to trade with me.
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I'm still interested in Kenny O'Neal, I just need to work out if I can get him with my cap situation. If someone else wants to jump in for him though, by all means go ahead as I think it will be a struggle unless I deal some guys away

Whens the deadline again?
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December 5th
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KCF0107 posted...

The deadline for signing your UFAs will be Wednesday, December 5th at 6 PM ET

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Ok, cool

I thought it was tonight for some reason and I was very concerned lol
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Panthers/Raiders trade is official
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Can you send Jablax PMs now KCF? He thinks he has read his messages

Yeah, he did. I just sent the PM.
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With about 10 days left, I want to say that eight users are finished or partially finished with signing their UFAs with another that sent in signings but held off on committing to them due to financial concerns.

Why would eight be auto-corrected?
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49ers release QB Nick Foles
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Does anyone need an extra 2nd or 3rd rounder this year? I'd be willing to swap it for 2nd or 3rd next year straight up.

I'm going to have significantly more picks than holes if my other trades go through so I'd rather give up picks this year for picks next year.

Bump
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Trade to annouce

Steelers receive:
WR Kenny O'Neal (85 - 29yo)
P Tom Malone (99 - 33yo)
C Josh Sitton (83 - 25yo)
Wildcats 4th (Pick 2 of round)
S12 Dolphins 6th

Dolphins receive:
Chiefs 4th (Pick 1 of round)
S12 Steelers 1st (Top 10 protected)
S12 Steelers 3rd

* If Steelers pick falls in Top 10, Dolphins receive Steelers' 2nd in S12 and S13 drafts.

The Chiefs/Wildcats picks are basically just in there because something has to go in the opposite direction this season to make the trade work (although he will have to get creative as I think only 3 things can be sent in 1 direction per trade). Ideally I'd have sent picks this season but KCF is already over the max allowed draft picks (10) so I couldn't send any.

I confirm. It won't be too difficult to do in the game. I just have to make sure to send you at least one player in part one and you send me a pick that I will resend back to you in part two.
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Is that just first hoarding for o neal basically

Like identical to the Johnson Trade we did
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ScareChan posted...

Is that just first hoarding for o neal basically

Like identical to the Johnson Trade we did

That's how I look at it. The 1st for o'neal is def the centerpiece.
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The trade originally did not involve the first until he asked to include Sitton.
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Im gonna need to see the card before Ifigure out if I ant to do TLC
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Yeah basically it was a 2nd and 3rd for O'Neal and Malone and ideally would have been picks this year not next. Then I asked if he would include Sitton too if I bumped the 2nd to a 1st.

2 reasons behind me wanting Sitton. He's significantly better than my current backup C/G for virtually the same contract and O-line is a high attrition position. Second reason is he's an RFA next season so I basically get a cheap year out of him next year too (or someone gives me a high draft pick for him)

I really hope the 1st conveys as I think 2x 2nds are more valuable than 1x 1st. Especially as one of the 2nds would be a very high second

Steelers/Dolphins trade is official. Five of the six trades this off-season have involved the Dolphins.
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I've tried to trade with other people, just haven't found any takers yet

The giants aren't exactly asset heavy
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Trade to announce

Steelers Receive
QB Alex Smith (82 - 31yo)

Cowboys Receive
WR O.J. Murdock (82 - 29yo)

Cowboys get a WR they desperately need. Steelers get a serviceable QB2 that isn't going to cost them a fortune and is on an expiring deal.

Nick Foles will remember that
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also since I have 2 first round picks I may be interested in packaging them to move up? but will wait to see what the draft options are first
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