Board 8 > Hearthstone Topic #??: Time for Blizzcon

(+) Yeah! (+)

I do need four wins so people challenge me

I have been poking at some Priest decks and Mech Pally lately as fun decks, also cube rogue
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The rogue deck went 6 wins, which is better than I thought (5).

But two of the losses were to Warlocks where I was winning until they just dropped Voidlord and it's like "I guess I lose now." The other loss was to a rogue who just did what my deck did better.
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metroid composite posted...

UltimaterializerX posted...

Hearthstone dust is BY FAR the worst economy return ratio (25%) in card game history. The standard in all card games is 50%. 25% is indefensible.

Um, "worst in history"? Have you heard of magic the gathering?

The best rares sell for $100. The worst rares sell for $0.2.

No really.

Here's a mythic rare selling for $0.17:

https://shop.tcgplayer.com/magic/media-promos/soul-of-zendikar?xid=ia9502e11e6e2473292c403a16ce84cf2

And here's a different mythic rare selling for $89.00

https://shop.tcgplayer.com/magic/from-the-vault-twenty/jace-the-mind-sculptor?xid=ic69052f1aba645b79a58b2d6bb1ff227

So...roughly a 400:1 conversion rate. If you open 400 Soul of Zendikars and sell them all, you can afford roughly a single Jace the Mind Sculptor.

Would I like a better dust conversion ratio in Hearthstone? Sure! But 4:1 is not bad, and literally a hundred times better than MtG (like...actually 100x better, not hyperbolic). Means no matter what I open I can make a real deck.

just saying that the standard for card games is also having to spend actual money to get cards all of the time.

But these kind of facts don't support the 'fuck blizz' agenda so they're nonviolently forgotten :C

UltimaterializerX posted...

You're not looking at it the right way. Bulk rares and mythics largely mean nothing in the market. I'm talking individual cards. If I have a card worth 10 dollars as a random example, almost every store will give me half the value in store credit or 40% of the value in cash. Hearthstone gives 25% value in a currency you can't even buy packs with.

Except every card of a particular rarity costs the same in Hearthstone. There's no differentiation between cards. So you could get 4 shitty rares, and trade up for a useful one. You can't do that in MTG because 40% of the value of those four cards is maybe 50 cents.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

You're not looking at it the right way. Bulk rares and mythics largely mean nothing in the market. I'm talking individual cards. If I have a card worth 10 dollars as a random example, almost every store will give me half the value in store credit or 40% of the value in cash. Hearthstone gives 25% value in a currency you can't even buy packs with.

Right, but every hearthstone card is actually worth something, and every legendary is worth at least 400 dust.

If you open up Harbinger Celestia in Hearthstone, it's worth 400 dust, which is arguably comparable to about $4 worth of value (maybe--the exact value of dust could be debated).

If you open up Soul of Zendikar in mtg it is literally worth nothing. Nothing. If it sells online for $0.17, good luck selling it to a shop for more than $0.10.

If this was a Hearthstone legendary it would be worth 400 dust and still actually pretty valuable, but since it's an MtG card it's basically completely worthless.

Like, yeah, sure, you get worse return if you want to exchange a good legendary in Hearthstone, like say maybe you open Baku and don't want to use her and disenchant her--in MtG you would have gotten a better return on that one card, sure. But the flip side of this is that if you open four trash legendaries you can trade them in for any legendary. You straight up can't do that in MtG. Four bad mythics are literally not worth one good mythic. Not even close.
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There are positives and downsides to both MTG and Hearthstone's system. A big bonus to MTG is when you sell your collection you will reap quite a bit of what you invested (with smart collecting even more than invested in some cases) especially if you own powerful cards that are worth a good chunk of money. Meanwhile in the world of Hearthstone any money spent is pretty much gone.
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Monopoman posted...

A big bonus to MTG is when you sell your collection you will reap quite a bit of what you invested (with smart collecting even more than invested in some cases) especially if you own powerful cards that are worth a good chunk of money.

This. This this this this this. It's why the LCGs like Netrunner, while a cool commercial idea, were doomed to commercial failure. There's no "off ramp" to retain value.

I wish it weren't so late or I'd make a proper rebuttal but that's the core of it.
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Monopoman posted...

There are positives and downsides to both MTG and Hearthstone's system. A big bonus to MTG is when you sell your collection you will reap quite a bit of what you invested (with smart collecting even more than invested in some cases) especially if you own powerful cards that are worth a good chunk of money. Meanwhile in the world of Hearthstone any money spent is pretty much gone.

I mean...if you play Legacy, sure, you can buy an MtG deck and then sell it sometime later and it will probably retain most of its value. It's about $1000 for a relatively budget Legacy deck (roughly what I paid for mine), but yeah, in theory I can get out and get most of that $1000 back. Maybe.

But if you play standard it's super easy to get fucked playing this plan. The moment your deck rotates out of standard, or even when bans happen, your deck can lose a massive chunk of its value. Theoretically someone very disciplined will sell their deck a couple months before the rotation and just take a break from Standard until rotation. But the reality is that most people I know just don't have good timing, or want to keep playing until rotation, and then the deck they bought for $400 is worth about $100.

TBH the "I could sell at any time" sentiment seems to mostly exist so that people can feel less guilty about spending all that money. I don't think I know anyone who isn't cash negative playing MtG (not counting the people who played in 1993, and are like "oh, hey look unopened packs of alpha. I forgot I had these.")
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Tbf this is also why only suckers buy packs in MTG instead of singles or drafting. Its not super analogous.
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I should look up how much money I've got sitting in my closet in Magic cards. I have a handful of rare cards that are sadly in pretty poor shape. If I had known they would end up being worth so much money I obviously wouldn't have played with them, or at least used sleeves. Thinking back, I don't remember anyone who used sleeves then. Still, they should have at least some worth.

I've also got something like 35 dual lands, the large majority of which aren't in English. Not sure if that makes them worth more or less. My grandma bought a large box of Magic cards she found at an auction because she knew that I liked them, not sure who previously owned the cards but there were four or five different languages represented in the box.

Who am I kidding, I'm never willingly going through those cards...
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Camden posted...

I should look up how much money I've got sitting in my closet in Magic cards. I have a handful of rare cards that are sadly in pretty poor shape. If I had known they would end up being worth so much money I obviously wouldn't have played with them, or at least used sleeves. Thinking back, I don't remember anyone who used sleeves then. Still, they should have at least some worth.

I've also got something like 35 dual lands, the large majority of which aren't in English. Not sure if that makes them worth more or less. My grandma bought a large box of Magic cards she found at an auction because she knew that I liked them, not sure who previously owned the cards but there were four or five different languages represented in the box.

Who am I kidding, I'm never willingly going through those cards...

PM me!
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metroid composite posted...

Monopoman posted...

There are positives and downsides to both MTG and Hearthstone's system. A big bonus to MTG is when you sell your collection you will reap quite a bit of what you invested (with smart collecting even more than invested in some cases) especially if you own powerful cards that are worth a good chunk of money. Meanwhile in the world of Hearthstone any money spent is pretty much gone.

I mean...if you play Legacy, sure, you can buy an MtG deck and then sell it sometime later and it will probably retain most of its value. It's about $1000 for a relatively budget Legacy deck (roughly what I paid for mine), but yeah, in theory I can get out and get most of that $1000 back. Maybe.

But if you play standard it's super easy to get fucked playing this plan. The moment your deck rotates out of standard, or even when bans happen, your deck can lose a massive chunk of its value. Theoretically someone very disciplined will sell their deck a couple months before the rotation and just take a break from Standard until rotation. But the reality is that most people I know just don't have good timing, or want to keep playing until rotation, and then the deck they bought for $400 is worth about $100.

TBH the "I could sell at any time" sentiment seems to mostly exist so that people can feel less guilty about spending all that money. I don't think I know anyone who isn't cash negative playing MtG (not counting the people who played in 1993, and are like "oh, hey look unopened packs of alpha. I forgot I had these.")

Well even in standard you can get out as you go along, stuff like oh yeah look Carnage Tyrant went up in value quite a bit lately I should sell mine. Sure, it's hard to be 100% positive in cash over what is spent especially when staying competitive in most games requires a constant influx of cash but it is possible more than just "Oh man I have all these beta dual lands I am so rich now."

I have done pretty well since I constantly buy and sell cards and that is how the smarter players handle mtg. It's annoying to constantly have to list things or check buylists and spend time doing that but it helps the game pay for itself.
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Well playing arena for a week was fun, but now I'm bored again.
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I'm hoping we get more card reveals sooner rather than later, unlike last time where there was about a two week layoff. I feel like the longer it takes, the more likely I am to convince myself that Shirvallah+Holy Wrath is worth making a deck for. Part of me just wants to make it because I've already associated the Holy Tiger deck name with a song and now that song is stuck in my head.
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It will really well with Baleful Banker, too, right? You can play Shirvallah for 0 mana, Baleful Banker him back into an empty deck, then Holy Wrath for 25?

Oh man, in Wild, you can get a Thaurissan tick off on Banker and one Holy Wrath, and you can 50 them, too!
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You can hit for 50 in standard as well, granted it's a seven card combo. Once your deck is empty...

Shirvallah - 0
Elekk - 3
Banker - 2
Banker - 2
Time Out! - 3
-End Turn-
Holy Wrath for 25
Holy Wrath for 25
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Playing Togwaggle Druid. I combo against big spell mage.

He of course gets handed two Grom Hellscream from Sindragosa and wins anyways. Any time someone tries telling me this is a skill game, I assume Im about to hear theres more than 2 genders.
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Looking for anyone who wants to play four games with me so I can make 400 gold.
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UItimaterializer posted...

I assume Im about to hear theres more than 2 genders.

Didn't we already go over this gender thing? :P
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azuarc posted...

Looking for anyone who wants to play four games with me so I can make 400 gold.

I need some games too but I wouldn't be able to play until night time EST.
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BlackDra90n posted...

azuarc posted...

Looking for anyone who wants to play four games with me so I can make 400 gold.

I need some games too but I wouldn't be able to play until night time EST.

I've still got to do mine as well and it won't be until late most likely. I do have a regular 80 gold play a friend quest to offer as payment if someone's willing. Anyone feel free to add me too: SaintAkira7 #1600.
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So...watching Laggy play Evenlock, and it occurs to me that there's almost no Evenlocks on ladder who run Shadowflame, because I basically never play around it, and it's really good.
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So...I was watching Laggy play Tesspionage Rogue, and Tess was consistently underperforming. Like...games where he could play Tess, either he was literally already winning, or he was losing and Tess didn't save him.

He cut Tess for Valeera the Hollow and she seems to be performing way better.
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I play a version of Tesspionage a lot and I've said for a long time that Tess is like the worst card within the confines of the deck. But, that one game in like ten when you do play it it's the most spectacular thing ever.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

What reason would there be to run it?

Everyone plays around hellfire, which they do by trying to get all their minions to 4 health, or only playing 4 health minions if they already have a wide board. And then you shadowflame and win. (You still run Hellfire, of course).
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https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/blog/22636894

A couple new cards were revealed today:
Ticket scalper, 4 mana neutral common, 5/3 Pirate with Overkill: draw 2 cards
Heavy Metal, 6 mana Warrior rare spell: summon a random minion with cost equal to your armor (up to 10).

Scalper has strong upside but wishes it had more health, might be fine in arena. Heavy Metal seems bad.

man arena is so good right now, but hearthstone spent so much time completely obliterating all of my good will toward the game that I can't even force myself to play it
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NewerShadow posted...

A couple new cards were revealed today:
Ticket scalper, 4 mana neutral common, 5/3 Pirate with Overkill: draw 2 cards

So overkill only activates when you attack with it (and do the excess damage), but apparently it was confirmed that it still activates when the minion takes fatal damage, so this card is now a must-remove. If it ever sticks and activates its ridiculous. Maybe not completely constructed-viable, but an easy pick for arena if its in a low bucket, Id say.

UltimaterializerX posted...

How does overkill actually work?

When a minion attacking with Overkill does more damage to another minion than the target can take, the effect of the Overkill is triggered. This can happen multiple times a turn and includes the attack that results in the attackers death.
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NewerShadow posted...

NewerShadow posted...

A couple new cards were revealed today:
Ticket scalper, 4 mana neutral common, 5/3 Pirate with Overkill: draw 2 cards

So overkill only activates when you attack with it (and do the excess damage), but apparently it was confirmed that it still activates when the minion takes fatal damage, so this card is now a must-remove. If it ever sticks and activates its ridiculous. Maybe not completely constructed-viable, but an easy pick for arena if its in a low bucket, Id say.

I mean, this card reminds me of Evil Heckler. Basically has taunt.

Except it's like a 5/3 taunt instead of a 5/4 taunt.

pretty sure it's not a standard card, but maybe in Arena?
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The problem with it in arena is that you must have initiative to drop it on 4. If not, your opponent will trade up with their 2 or 3 drop and you'll fall way behind on tempo. A comparable card would be Worgen Greaser from MSG (4 mana 6/3), which was not particularly good, though this is obviously better since the ability will proc sometimes.
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Been playing a Shudderwock Shaman where you buff a Stonetusk Boar a ton and then win, with the alternate win condition being evolved Corridor Creepers or just a solid board state in general

actually good fun
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I played a Stonetusk OTK deck when Witchwood first came out. Opened Shudderwock in a pack, and since ladder was absolutely infested with the exact same variant of Shudderwock at the time I wanted to play something different. I didn't run any alternate win conditions though, just 100% all in on a roided up boar. Consequently, I also didn't win very often.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Im playing against heal zoo running demonic project for some stupid f***ing reason, and OF COURSE he gets handed despicable dreadlord.

I mean, you realize that Heal Zoo can just run despicable dreadlord instead of RNGing into it from demonic project, right? I run two in my heal Zoo, specifically for the Odd Paladin matchup.

I dunno why they would run Demonic Project, though. Like...it costs 2 mana, it stops them from including Keleseth. Dark Possession I could understand in Heal Zoo maybe? It's a way to damage yourself for 1 mana, and lets you discover a demon, instead of turning a card already in your hand into a demon.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Arena will not be good until all players draft at the same rarity.

meh, I've heard this argument before and I think it's really ignorant. it overrates card rarity way too much when we know for a fact that rarity does not equal quality. your proposed system would only create a game mode where ulti can now whine about how he was offered 3 trash legendaries and all of his opponents drafted lich king.

fact of the matter is that arena will never be perfect, but a mode which breaks the cards up by their power level and offers them based on that is the BEST possible system... aka the bucket system which is what the current arena uses. not only that but they've been refining it over the last few arena cycles to the point where arena is THE BEST it has ever been in the entire time I've played hearthstone. so from now until whispers of the old gods, I find the current arena meta to be by far the best.
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But the bucket system is largely filling the same role as the rarity system does in other card games.

As long as people are offered similar bucket collections it's fine.
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Err...what was hidden? I remember the bucket system being announced when it was a new feature....
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