Board 8 > Game of Thrones Season 8: Topic 5

(+) Yeah! (+)

Nanis23 posted...

If you guys didn't realize Jaime love for Cersei is bigger than anything then I don't think we watched the same show

Stop making me defend this season with those stupid complaints
They have done a lot of errors but Jaime doing everything for Cersei is not one of them

Of course Jaime loves Cersei more than anything, but he also has long since realized that she's a monster and would do anything for power/status/her children and any combination of those. I have no qualms with him going back to KL to see Cersei, but my dumb ass REALLY thought the show was building up to him going back to kill her, not to be with her. I'm upset that all the signs pointing to him being a different and better person were ignored. What was even the point of the last couple episodes, let alone the last couple seasons?

I mean think about it. Even if you didn't read the books enough to know about the "Yes, dear sister" arc where Jaime grows weary of Cersei's BS, hell even if you're a complete casual and only watch the episodes once a piece in the last two episodes alone it's revealed that Cersei hired a sellsword to kill Jaime and his brother. How dumb do you have to be to go crawling back to someone like that? I know, I know, "stupidest Lannister" but that is really taking it too far. Also this man fucked Brienne twice. Why twice? Once can be brushed off as a pity fuck, but TWICE implies he's really trying to move on.

Here's how I would've rewritten Cersei's end and the rest of that episode while I'm at it:
1) Keep Mad Queen Daenerys. That was earned as Dany lost everyone and everything that tethered her to sanity. She can still go flying through KL torching all the opposing soldiers in her path, but for goodness sake don't make it such a rotfl curbstomp. These fuckers got three direct hits on Rhaegal from a mountain's distance now you mean to tell me they have stormtrooper aim at point-blank range? Come on. If you're gonna go Mad Queen go FULL Mad Queen and have her recklessly charging the outer walls despite Drogon taking a couple scorpion bolts to non vital areas. She doesn't care about anyone's wellbeing at this point, just the Throne.
2) When the bells ring, have the opposing army open the gates willingly. Dany's army marches into the inner walls unimpeded. Then once they're in Dany fires dracarys on the soldiers who would've been defending the gate. Again, if you're gonna go Mad Queen Dany go big or go home, box office. Let her start off with some purpose (ridding KL of anyone who would oppose her) before she starts losing her grip and firing random civilians, maybe some of her own army are caught in the literal crossfire unintentionally and she doesn't care enough to stop.
3) Jaime, having implicitly rung the bells of surrender seeing the fruits of his labor rot into nothing then goes to the Red Keep to find Cersei, not to forgive her but to kill her in an attempt to appease Daenerys and convince her that her the Last War is over. He stabs Cersei in the gut, not in the back like he did the Mad King because that's the death Cersei deserves: betrayed by the only person she ever truly loved due to the choices she made. Jaime's arc, regardless of how this attempt is met, is now over. He has become Kingslayer AND Queenslayer, though this time people will remember him as a hero because of it.

Cersei begging for her life like a pathetic child? No, none of that. The only time Cersei has ever shown weakness is to manipulate others and that walk of shame. While her own ego crashing down on top of her is a somewhat poetic end, she deserved to go out like a boss bitch. In no way does she deserve to be holding the man she loves as they die together. She needed to die miserable and alone because of the choices that led her to do so.
---

Fully agree on almost all of what Gen said.

How I would've written it.

Arya and The Hound run into Mountain/Qyburn/Cersei as they're trying to escape. Arya/Hound square off with The Mountain as Qyburn and Cersei flee.

Cersei realizes it's over and decides to scorch everything with Wildfire, ala the Mad King. Qyburn is upset but agrees. They run into Jaime en route to this and Cersei thinks he's on her side and goes all crazy telling him that the dragon queen will rule over only ashes and that Qyburn is going to go set King's Landing totally ablaze. Jaime says no. Jaime kills Qyburn. Cersei rages at him. Tells him he's a traitor, that he abandoned her etc etc, STAB. Kills Cersei.

Then make it a big show of him holding out Cersei's dead body to show Daenarys, that it's over.

And Dany SCORCHES him/Cersei's body anyway, continuing her massacre.
---

redrocket posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Aragorn didn't spend time talking about unshackling the people. He was mostly just into his orc-killing thing.

And yet he still became king in the end. He could have walked away.

And leave the throne to... an extra, I guess.
---

GranzonEx posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

So both cultures have scenarios where mass rape and pillaging is acceptable, but only one is savage?

Westeros has scenarios and it's not accepted as culture, Dothraki considers it their culture

How is warfare not part of Westeros culture? I'm not trying to be out here like "both sides are equally bad!" but do you not think that the series might be making a point about the horrors of warfare and the hypocrisy of "polite" society that ignores what it was built on while benefitting from it?

This again ties into the peasants not giving a single shit about the game of thrones because they are the ones getting raped and murdered over it.
---

Poor Bronn gonna end up with nothing by hedging his bets when Daenerys finds out Tyrion released Jaime or begins doubting her

ExThaNemesis posted...

"It's just Dothraki culture, guys. Don't be racist."

lmfao

I'm not sure you understood the conversation

Dany is ruthless because she's willing to do anything to sit on the throne, even using Dothraki to do the job knowing full well their nature, I'm not the one being racist and condoning raping and pillaging >_>

I remember in one of the earlier seasons I think it was either Jorah or Barristan that advised her to buy a legit army for her return to Westeros and not use slaves and Dothraki
---

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

GranzonEx posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

So both cultures have scenarios where mass rape and pillaging is acceptable, but only one is savage?

Westeros has scenarios and it's not accepted as culture, Dothraki considers it their culture

How is warfare not part of Westeros culture? I'm not trying to be out here like "both sides are equally bad!" but do you not think that the series might be making a point about the horrors of warfare and the hypocrisy of "polite" society that ignores what it was built on while benefitting from it?

This again ties into the peasants not giving a single shit about the game of thrones because they are the ones getting raped and murdered over it.

our debate was over, you're being deliberately obtuse
---

HanOfTheNekos posted...

No... it's not. There was no justification in that way. Just because you read into that doesn't mean that's what was presented.

I can find the exact time of the line if you want. It was during a discussion with Tyrion.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

redrocket posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Aragorn didn't spend time talking about unshackling the people. He was mostly just into his orc-killing thing.

And yet he still became king in the end. He could have walked away.

And leave the throne to... an extra, I guess.

Faramir seems like the obvious choice.
---

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Probably a pointless question given how reckless the writers are now, but what exactly is Dany's logic when she says "I'm killing them so future generations won't have to live under a tyrant"?

Yeah that's the line. Typical dictator logic that has been used a lot in the real world too.
---

GranzonEx posted...

our debate was over, you're being deliberately obtuse

I'm not, you started on the position that Daenerys is a shitty ruler and always has been. I'm pointing out until recently she hasn't been much shittier at all than the other leaders and plenty of people have pointed out her comparative upsides.
---

Maniac64 posted...

Faramir seems like the obvious choice.

That family has a history of mental illness.
---

If I used user tags I would tag GranzonEx as 'Rape Apologist' because holy shit wtf
---

GenesisSaga posted...

Cersei begging for her life like a pathetic child? No, none of that.

Nah that was good. But she should've died after finding Jamie's dead corpse bled out in the middle of the map room. That's miserable and alone. Instead they had a Notebook ending.

Looking at the whole show it does make sense that Jamie was trying to save her and not kill her.
---

GenesisSaga posted...

in the last two episodes alone it's revealed that Cersei hired a sellsword to kill Jaime and his brother.

I have to admit I forgot about it because it wss so anticlimatic and pointless
So yeah you got a point
---

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

GranzonEx posted...

our debate was over, you're being deliberately obtuse

I'm not, you started on the position that Daenerys is a shitty ruler and always has been. I'm pointing out until recently she hasn't been much shittier at all than the other leaders and plenty of people have pointed out her comparative upsides.

my position was she was ruthless, she torches people to gain power and would employ even rapers and pillagers to get what she wants

she does have redeeming qualities but a lot of those are outweighed by her naivety and her fairly limited understanding of how Westeros operates on a political level

TotallyNotMI posted...

If I used user tags I would tag GranzonEx as 'Rape Apologist' because holy shit wtf

maybe try a reading comprehension class
---

GranzonEx posted...

that s*** doesn't happen in Westeros, or with a mercenary army, sure rape will happen but that will be the end of it after the battle is won

---

I thought that the horse was a White Walker horse and Arya was going to have to be forced to obey if you kill it you replace it and become the Nights Queen. And before that I thought Arya got burned on half her face to be the new hound.

Pretty good episode. Really tense. Ive enjoyed it. Dunno what peoples problem is. I loved Dany since the start and that never changes. I suspected a mad queen twist but didnt think theyd do it. More interesting than her just winning and being good but Ill spit food if it ends with Jon on the throne. Like Ive said before, Dany is basically Robert Baratheon.

I also love Cersei and love the end she got, kinda sweet but also pathetic with the man she loved. Humanized again. And the Lannister soldiers looked almost like the heroes, evacuating people. Good ending for them.

If the soldiers didn't wear such revealing skirts it wouldn't be a problem
---

stole this

Patch 5.12.2019.8.05 -
decreased skorpions accuracy from 90% to 0%; -
increased drogon firebreath skill radius by 500%;
- increased drogon firebreath skill power by 500%;'
- increased drogon speed by 350%;
- increased drogon maneuverability by 300%;
---

Either Jon/Arya kills Dany and takes the throne, or Jon joins Dany and rules with her (after killing Arya). I don't know which is less dumb but I like the latter option. It also completes the cycle by having a Targaryen on the throne vs a Stark in the north.
---

foolm0r0n posted...

Either Jon/Arya kills Dany and takes the throne, or Jon joins Dany and rules with her (after killing Arya). I don't know which is less dumb but I like the latter option. It also completes the cycle by having a Targaryen on the throne vs a Stark in the north.

Arya kills Jon who is defending Dany from Arya. Then Arya kills Dany.
---

it doesn't matter who takes the throne, the last scene is gonna be Samwell finding some old ass scroll that reveals some baby drama we didn't know about before that proves that the actual true heir to throne is podric or something, starting an entire new civil war

Bronn doesn't get Highgarden, takes the Throne.
---

Nrrr posted...

it doesn't matter who takes the throne, the last scene is gonna be Samwell finding some old ass scroll that reveals some baby drama we didn't know about before that proves that the actual true heir to throne is podric or something, starting an entire new civil war

I figure the last scene is gonna be some blue eyed white walker Craster baby
---

GenesisSaga posted...

He stabs Cersei in the gut, not in the back like he did the Mad King because that's the death Cersei deserves: betrayed by the only person she ever truly loved due to the choices she made.

Even if you think Jaime should have killed Cersei (thats fine) youre insane if you think he would do her like that.
---

TotallyNotMI posted...

GranzonEx posted...

that s*** doesn't happen in Westeros, or with a mercenary army, sure rape will happen but that will be the end of it after the battle is won

GranzonEx posted...

reading comprehension

---

These threads are getting harder and harder to take seriously with how wildly off-base so many people are with their analysis - from forgetting huge details to completely misreading situations. (My favorite is all the posts from the last topic saying that if you didn't think Jaime was heading out with the intent to kill Cersei, then you were watching a completely different show)

I'm not going to pretend this is the pinnacle of writing, but I'm still enjoying the show. Anyone who's steaming mad about a perceived crash this week is probably going to be even more upset next week and it'll all be their own doing.
---

If Jaime was going to kill Cersei in the show it should have been a mercy kill at that point.

Half because he knew she needed to die for what she has done and half because he still loved her and didn't want her to suffer.

The way it went down in the show is so damn bad though.

I've been looking around a bit and one suggestion I liked was for dragon #2 not to die last week. Keep him alive - they routed KL anyway so what's the difference between one and two here? They decimate the army, destroy all the ships, etc etc. KL rings the bells. Dragons land, like they did this episode. One rouge scorpion that is still functional kills dragon #2. Now Dany goes nuts, like full on nuts, and starts razing the town to the ground. That way we also don't have the "wow scorpions sniped one dragon no problem with a silly surprise ambush last episode but now no one can even touch Drogon even with 100 of them all grouped together (compared to like ten last episode)". It would make a bit more sense heat of the moment then what went down where Dany decided to just murder all the children after a surrender with no one fighting anymore. I like the idea of a MAD QUEEN but I thought they way they did it was a complete and utter mess.

This suggestion accomplishes the same thing, but makes it feel a bit more earned and not totally out of line with what Dany had done for literally six seasons now.

I guess then MIssandei doesn't get captured but that whole scene was stupid anyway so they really needed to figure out Missandei's death some other way regardless.

Again, I feel like GRRM told them the ending, but without any idea of how to get there himself D&D were left to sort of try and piece things together as best as they could and this is what we got. I fully expect something like this to happen in the never to be finished books. Dany razing the town/Jon trying to hold the northern army back and being aghast when they resort to raping and murder seems like the kind of thing I'd expect from the books. But the lead up here was so messy that it feels unearned.
---

Suprak the Stud posted...

I've been looking around a bit and one suggestion I liked was for dragon #2 not to die last week. Keep him alive - they routed KL anyway so what's the difference between one and two here? They decimate the army, destroy all the ships, etc etc. KL rings the bells. Dragons land, like they did this episode. One rouge scorpion that is still functional kills dragon #2. Now Dany goes nuts, like full on nuts, and starts razing the town to the ground. That way we also don't have the "wow scorpions sniped one dragon no problem with a silly surprise ambush last episode but now no one can even touch Drogon even with 100 of them all grouped together (compared to like ten last episode)". It would make a bit more sense heat of the moment then what went down where Dany decided to just murder all the children after a surrender with no one fighting anymore. I like the idea of a MAD QUEEN but I thought they way they did it was a complete and utter mess.

This suggestion accomplishes the same thing, but makes it feel a bit more earned and not totally out of line with what Dany had done for literally six seasons now.

I guess then MIssandei doesn't get captured but that whole scene was stupid anyway so they really needed to figure out Missandei's death some other way regardless.

Again, I feel like GRRM told them the ending, but without any idea of how to get there himself D&D were left to sort of try and piece things together as best as they could and this is what we got. I fully expect something like this to happen in the never to be finished books. Dany razing the town/Jon trying to hold the northern army back and being aghast when they resort to raping and murder seems like the kind of thing I'd expect from the books. But the lead up here was so messy that it feels unearned.

I like what you suggested. Would have been better for sure
And they could have kidnapped her in the same way, just make it that Dany is not with them
---

Jon should have been alone riding the dragon when it got killed.

Also I like how people were totally fine with episodes 1 and 2
Then went nuts over how amazing episode 3 was, treated it like any other epic-episode from previous seasons (Red Wedding, Battle of the Bastards, Hardhome, etc) while the minority were complaining
But come episode 4 and suddenly the hate is everywhere. People that loved episode 3 suddenly hate it. "This season sucks and has a terrible writing" is now a universally accepted thing
I mean, even if you think episode 4 sucked, why would it affect the whole season? but it did, and that's a fact.

The hate train is unstoppable now that even though "The Bells" was a good episode (besides a few annoying things) people can't shut up about how much they hated it and how they hate this season and can't wait for it to end
IMDB score for it is second-lowest of all time for the show (just behind the previous episode)

Hate and anger are contagious I guess
---

Im enjoying it but I feel like it could have been better. Which is basically the way I feel about 90% of what I watch. Game of Thrones is still one of the best things.

Cersei decided to try and win the game of thrones, it cost her life, her child's life, her lover/brother's life and she was well aware of that all in her last moments. sure she gets to share that death with Jamie but she can't even bare to look at him. it was great.

yeah we're missing some development for Jamie - he should have been more conflicted this season. or another conversation with Tyrion about Cersei. oh well.

I haven't cared much for Dany but I really liked her yesterday. She won the Last War, the bell was tolling, but yet she felt she hadn't won the throne. I thought that was the perfect setup. This wasn't even collateral damage, this was straight up massacre. I wasn't expecting that.
---

neonreaper posted...

Cersei decided to try and win the game of thrones, it cost her life, her child's life, her lover/brother's life and she was well aware of that all in her last moments. sure she gets to share that death with Jamie but she can't even bare to look at him. it was great.

yeah we're missing some development for Jamie - he should have been more conflicted this season. or another conversation with Tyrion about Cersei. oh well.

I haven't cared much for Dany but I really liked her yesterday. She won the Last War, the bell was tolling, but yet she felt she hadn't won the throne. I thought that was the perfect setup. This wasn't even collateral damage, this was straight up massacre. I wasn't expecting that.

I feel like if they didn't rush this and did 10 full episodes like HBO wanted, a lot of these things could've been resolved.

They needed a bit longer for Jamie to simmer like you said. Maybe another episode dedicated to Dany slowly descending into madness or at least fleshing that out a bit more. There are ways to fix all of these issues honestly, and a lot of the writing here feels rushed or sloppy which is a shame because visually this season has been absolutely amazing. The cinematography here is just as good as it has ever been. Like, visually, this might be the most striking episode yet. There were some absolutely BRILLIANT shots.
---

No one else thought it was weird that the dragon fire makes stone just completely explode and that it cuts through towers like a hot knife through butter? How did Harrenhal manage to get melted? Why didn't Varys and the Tarlys bodies get projectiled like cannon balls from the force? Seemed super weird and immersion breaking to me.
---

I don't know what the right term is but people have definitely given into the hate. I don't want to tell people they are wrong for dislike the show - that's their opinion and all that. certain people just seem eager to complain.

fwiw real life friends are mostly positive but the ones that are negative are REALLY negative about the show. like a sloppy plot point or lack of nuance and the whole show is a disaster. and again I felt that way last year with Bronn shoving Jamie off the horse at the end of Spoils of War, off the continental shelf into the Mariana trench etc etc
---

Suprak the Stud posted...

I've been looking around a bit and one suggestion I liked was for dragon #2 not to die last week. Keep him alive - they routed KL anyway so what's the difference between one and two here? They decimate the army, destroy all the ships, etc etc. KL rings the bells. Dragons land, like they did this episode. One rouge scorpion that is still functional kills dragon #2. Now Dany goes nuts, like full on nuts, and starts razing the town to the ground. That way we also don't have the "wow scorpions sniped one dragon no problem with a silly surprise ambush last episode but now no one can even touch Drogon even with 100 of them all grouped together (compared to like ten last episode)". It would make a bit more sense heat of the moment then what went down where Dany decided to just murder all the children after a surrender with no one fighting anymore. I like the idea of a MAD QUEEN but I thought they way they did it was a complete and utter mess.

This suggestion accomplishes the same thing, but makes it feel a bit more earned and not totally out of line with what Dany had done for literally six seasons now.

I guess then MIssandei doesn't get captured but that whole scene was stupid anyway so they really needed to figure out Missandei's death some other way regardless.

Again, I feel like GRRM told them the ending, but without any idea of how to get there himself D&D were left to sort of try and piece things together as best as they could and this is what we got. I fully expect something like this to happen in the never to be finished books. Dany razing the town/Jon trying to hold the northern army back and being aghast when they resort to raping and murder seems like the kind of thing I'd expect from the books. But the lead up here was so messy that it feels unearned.

this should have happened.
---

Samurai7 posted...

No one else thought it was weird that the dragon fire makes stone just completely explode and that it cuts through towers like a hot knife through butter? How did Harrenhal manage to get melted? Why didn't Varys and the Tarlys bodies get projectiled like cannon balls from the force? Seemed super weird and immersion breaking to me.

dragon fire has different qualities than normal fire and is magical, I thought they've kinda touched on that from time to time. I don't worry too much about it because how do dragons breath fire like that at all etc. the only explanation is "weird magic"
---

Dany lost two of her babies and all of her friends besides one fighting their stupid war and protecting the people but still wasnt loved. She did the Stannis thing and went down to help to prove herself and it didnt really help, and she lost everything.

neonreaper posted...

Samurai7 posted...

No one else thought it was weird that the dragon fire makes stone just completely explode and that it cuts through towers like a hot knife through butter? How did Harrenhal manage to get melted? Why didn't Varys and the Tarlys bodies get projectiled like cannon balls from the force? Seemed super weird and immersion breaking to me.

dragon fire has different qualities than normal fire and is magical, I thought they've kinda touched on that from time to time. I don't worry too much about it because how do dragons breath fire like that at all etc. the only explanation is "weird magic"

Sure, but bigger dragons had to melt harrenhal.... it didn't get blown apart. And if the fire has that kind of force, when she's burning people alive wouldn't their bodies go flying? It just doesn't seem consistent at all. Like if it can completely smash fortifications you think it would do more than scorch the ground.
---

Maybe a big glob of fire hits like a boulder but a constant stream is more like a blowtorch

neonreaper posted...

I don't know what the right term is but people have definitely given into the hate. I don't want to tell people they are wrong for dislike the show - that's their opinion and all that. certain people just seem eager to complain.

bandwagoning maybe?
---

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Maybe a big glob of fire hits like a boulder but a constant stream is more like a blowtorch

Maybe. Certainly doesn't make or break the show, just seemed really weird to me.
---

The show is good for what is is in my opinion

Like its felt more like a Hollywood blockbuster post season 4 but the acting and cinematography is still very good and theres a lot of neat moments in even the shaky episodes

Then again Im not super high on the books post Storm of Swords so eh
---

neonreaper posted...

I don't know what the right term is but people have definitely given into the hate. I don't want to tell people they are wrong for dislike the show - that's their opinion and all that. certain people just seem eager to complain.

The thing is - this is the end. For how directionless characters and seasons have been, for how pointless certain plotlines have been, there has always been more show. Now, there's not. And while there's no pleasing everyone, there are people who feel ultimately that the characters they fell in love with and stuck it out for have just been done unwell. And it's a bitter taste.

Like, for the people who disliked the Battle for Winterfell... at least there was whatever came after with Cersei. And now that's resolved.
---

Samurai7 posted...

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Maybe a big glob of fire hits like a boulder but a constant stream is more like a blowtorch

Maybe. Certainly doesn't make or break the show, just seemed really weird to me.

The one that always gets me with dragon fire is that there has to be a limit to what one dragon can produce over a set period of time right? And the sheer amount of fire Drogon producer in this fight seemed to be way I'm excess of what just 1 dragon of his size should be able to produce.

I mean of course it can be hand waved away because we are dealing with dragons and magic. It's just something that always makes me think.

Good lord this season is absolute poop. VERY clear at this point that Benioff and Weiss needed to be done with this, rather than just wanted it. So many weird choices throughout. I'm going to assume that "Euron and Cersei forgot you could launch multiple bolts at a flying dragon" will be one of the reasons they give for Drogon's annihilation of the scorpions, followed by "Dany forgot that she could have just scorched the Red Keep", followed by "We forgot we could have had Dany destroy the Red Keep, destroying many buildings and killing innocents nearby while setting off a chain reaction of wildfire, so we could keep the Mad Queen a possibility rather than a total fact."

I guess next week we'll get Arya killing Dany (and hopefully Jon destroying the Iron Throne, allowing all the nations to rule themselves) and then I can finally be done wasting an hour and a half of my monday nights on this crap.

The absolute nothing end to Jaime and Cersei (and Bleuhron)'s story is also just...why?
---

I want to say that I do feel bad for Dany's fans, of which there are still many. They're hurting this week.

It's very easy to say "You should've been paying more attention, this was always going to happen" to them, but I don't think it's unfair for them to have expected better. To have believed that Dany would turn out different than this, even though we all were telling them the whole time that she was the bad guy.

Honestly, I don't know if any of you remember my Game of Thrones watch through topic back from when I first started, but Dany lost me when she allowed her brother to be ruthlessly murdered in front of her by Khal Drogo. Viserys sucked, yes, but he was drunk and pissed off about his wants being put on hold (sound familiar?). She could've had him locked up, she could've had him exiled, she could've done any number of things. But it was the start of her inability to show loyalty to people that should matter to her. She let Drogo "crown" him, and it was downhill from there.

But again, it wasn't unfair for the people to like her to have expected her to resist her darker impulses and be a good queen.
---