Board 8 > Game of Thrones Season 8: Topic 5

(+) Yeah! (+)

I agree. This episode showed both Jamie and Dany making the wrong but more entertaining choice over their good points and caring about folks.

I find it hard to believe that Jon will be able to rally anyone behind him, they were too scared of Ramsay much less Dany. Why didnt you just marry her, Jon. Its the absolute least you could have done to secure peace and its something that girls are trained from girlhood to do- have sex with someone they dont want to secure peace. And you got off lucky compared to them.

My only real complaint with how Jaime went out is how he left Brienne. There was really no reason to destroy her like that, and it doesn't mesh up at all with the Jaime that knighted her just two episodes ago. Really all they had to do was have Jaime bring up his unborn child and Brienne would've understood. She'd be sad, but she'd get it.
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mnkboy907 posted...

My only real complaint with how Jaime went out is how he left Brienne. There was really no reason to destroy her like that, and it doesn't mesh up at all with the Jaime that knighted her just two episodes ago. Really all they had to do was have Jaime bring up his unborn child and Brienne would've understood. She'd be sad, but she'd get it.

I'm with you 100%, this is the only thing I've really not liked
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Steiner posted...

mnkboy907 posted...

My only real complaint with how Jaime went out is how he left Brienne. There was really no reason to destroy her like that, and it doesn't mesh up at all with the Jaime that knighted her just two episodes ago. Really all they had to do was have Jaime bring up his unborn child and Brienne would've understood. She'd be sad, but she'd get it.

I'm with you 100%, this is the only thing I've really not liked

But it wasn't till Jaime heard that Euron was going to claim the baby as his and that Cersei was "with" him that he lost it. It's always been a jealousy thing. No man could have her but him. It was finding out what she was doing that snapped him back into his jealousy
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mnkboy907 posted...

My only real complaint with how Jaime went out is how he left Brienne. There was really no reason to destroy her like that, and it doesn't mesh up at all with the Jaime that knighted her just two episodes ago. Really all they had to do was have Jaime bring up his unborn child and Brienne would've understood. She'd be sad, but she'd get it.

Well you are right that this is much more fitting for the character

But that would prevent him from using "She is hateful. And so am I" epic-bad-ass-so-kickass-oh-my-god-XD quote

We are in the Hollywood category now, where something like "Sandor...<long pause> Thank you" cliche is used unironically
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PerfectChaosZ posted...

I agree. This episode showed both Jamie and Dany making the wrong but more entertaining choice over their good points and caring about folks.

I find it hard to believe that Jon will be able to rally anyone behind him, they were too scared of Ramsay much less Dany. Why didnt you just marry her, Jon. Its the absolute least you could have done to secure peace and its something that girls are trained from girlhood to do- have sex with someone they dont want to secure peace. And you got off lucky compared to them. They dont get the choice.

Very cool post

Steiner posted...

mnkboy907 posted...

My only real complaint with how Jaime went out is how he left Brienne. There was really no reason to destroy her like that, and it doesn't mesh up at all with the Jaime that knighted her just two episodes ago. Really all they had to do was have Jaime bring up his unborn child and Brienne would've understood. She'd be sad, but she'd get it.

I'm with you 100%, this is the only thing I've really not liked

The other weird thing about this scene is that Jaime doesn't leave until it sounds like Cersei has a chance to win. He doesn't march down when Dany leaves with two dragons and a fleet of ships. It isn't until that fleet is decimated and a dragon is dead and Sansa goes "oh looks like I won't see her executed" that he goes and takes off. At this point, Jaime has more reason to believe that Cersei will win than he has had at any point since the field of fire.

So what was his plan? This episode he was going to escape with her once things turned sour, but there was less of a reason for him to believe things will turn sour when he left than when he chose to stay. I am a bit confused by his motivation here and the timing of him leaving didn't make much sense to me in context with the episodes that came after it.

Like in the books (I know, lol me), Cersei sends him a message literally begging, pleading for his help. I love you I love only you I will die if you don't help me I need you please I beg you come to me please please please. He throws that in the fire and then goes to find Brienne instead. I know book Jaime and show Jaime are different characters. But his treatment of Brienne and the timing of his return both feel sloppy to me. Again, like the writers knew ultimately what would happen but couldn't figure out a way to get there.

I think Jaime and Dany's character arcs not being fully fleshed out and feeling rushed have been the worst part of this season to me. Both of these things needed a bit more time to breathe.
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Well lots of people died but it wasnt very cool. Cersei and Jamie hug and get crushed. Woo. Baldy gets burnt. Kinda cool. Guy afraid of fire tackles that line backer out of the tower. Meh.

We all know how this should end next episode. Someone kills dragon lady probably Arya cause gotta pander to the fans. John snow doesnt wanna rule cause hes a sissy so instead jts a family triforce where him arya and sanza all rule the iron throne as a weird family triangle. Then they raise swords and declare triforce and the show ends and a Nintendo logo comes on screen.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

The other weird thing about this scene is that Jaime doesn't leave until it sounds like Cersei has a chance to win. He doesn't march down when Dany leaves with two dragons and a fleet of ships. It isn't until that fleet is decimated and a dragon is dead and Sansa goes "oh looks like I won't see her executed" that he goes and takes off. At this point, Jaime has more reason to believe that Cersei will win than he has had at any point since the field of fire.

I took this as Sansa realizing that Dany is about to burn the whole fucking city down instead of taking it normally and having a formal execution. Which also explains why Jaime is suddenly rushed and thinks Cersei is about to die.
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https://toofab.com/2019/05/13/game-of-thrones-varys-admits-writing-hasnt-been-as-good/

varys posts here confirmed

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Suprak the Stud posted...

The other weird thing about this scene is that Jaime doesn't leave until it sounds like Cersei has a chance to win. He doesn't march down when Dany leaves with two dragons and a fleet of ships. It isn't until that fleet is decimated and a dragon is dead and Sansa goes "oh looks like I won't see her executed" that he goes and takes off. At this point, Jaime has more reason to believe that Cersei will win than he has had at any point since the field of fire.

I took this as Sansa realizing that Dany is about to burn the whole fucking city down instead of taking it normally and having a formal execution. Which also explains why Jaime is suddenly rushed and thinks Cersei is about to die.

Of course she was about to die there was only gunna be 1 episode left jamie knew this
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episode 4 toyed with us by nerfing the dragons when in reality Dany could have killed everyone on the executioner's platform during that whole Tyrion/Qyburn exchange
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Suprak the Stud posted...

The other weird thing about this scene is that Jaime doesn't leave until it sounds like Cersei has a chance to win. He doesn't march down when Dany leaves with two dragons and a fleet of ships. It isn't until that fleet is decimated and a dragon is dead and Sansa goes "oh looks like I won't see her executed" that he goes and takes off. At this point, Jaime has more reason to believe that Cersei will win than he has had at any point since the field of fire.

I took this as Sansa realizing that Dany is about to burn the whole fucking city down instead of taking it normally and having a formal execution. Which also explains why Jaime is suddenly rushed and thinks Cersei is about to die.

Oh, ok. I didn't interpret it that way, but that is certainly plausible.

BUT.

After a surprise fleet attack killed a dragon...why wouldn't they assume they could kill the other? Why is it now "uh oh Cersei is sure in trouble for killing one half of Dany's massive advantage". Dany's win percentage went down after that happened, not up. They could kill dragons. Apparently easily in episode 4.

Like, to me, Jaime should have every reason to believe that Cersei is going to die with two dragons flying down to get her. Even if Dany doesn't just burn everything down, there is no reason to believe that Cersei isn't going to wind up dead if the city falls. This society isn't exactly a peaceful transition of power type of place where deposed rulers retire to the Summer Islands. Like (at least to me) he has to be thinking "Cersei is 100% dead" when Dany leaves. A dead dragon and another big chunk of her army destroyed makes it more likely that Cersei will survive, not less.
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GranzonEx posted...

episode 4 toyed with us by nerfing the dragons when in reality Dany could have killed everyone on the executioner's platform during that whole Tyrion/Qyburn exchange

Yeah
He was so OP this episode that even being a sitting dock back in episode 4 was enough for him to dodge everything
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I think something they wanted to portray but failed is that Dany and her dragons were always this insanely OP, it's just that she was holding back because she was being politically favorable with the north and playing the game normally so that she would be a "good ruler".

After she lost 2 dragons and all her friends to that game, she ditched it and went back to the selfish burning everything strategy, and this is the result. I think that's what the Rhaegal death scene was trying to show. When she's escorting the others and being all "strategic", she is weak and gets instakilled. But when she is reckless and dives head first into danger, she is invincible.

(I know this is all just wishful thinking about the quality of the writing but it makes some sense)
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I think that's the case. Rhaegar's death was bad but in retrospect it was more about showing Cersei's only chance was a sneak attack against a wounded dragon. Except...the sneak attack itself was stupid and nonsensical. But more reason to ignore it. Drogon has been pretty consistently been completely unstoppable. Maybe Jon can redeem his dragon scream-off and get to fight him.
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foolm0r0n posted...

I think something they wanted to portray but failed is that Dany and her dragons were always this insanely OP, it's just that she was holding back because she was being politically favorable with the north and playing the game normally so that she would be a "good ruler".

After she lost 2 dragons and all her friends to that game, she ditched it and went back to the selfish burning everything strategy, and this is the result. I think that's what the Rhaegal death scene was trying to show. When she's escorting the others and being all "strategic", she is weak and gets instakilled. But when she is reckless and dives head first into danger, she is invincible.

(I know this is all just wishful thinking about the quality of the writing but it makes some sense)

I like this

Correct me if Im wrong, but I thought Dany and her allies knew nothing about the scorpions Cersei was building? So the surprise in the surprise attack in Episode 4 was not, oh shit a bunch of ships appeared out of nowhere! but rather, oh shit these ships have weapons that can kill a dragon!
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They used the scorpions in S7. She might not have known that the boats had them, but still.
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Miss him yet?


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No, Stannis sucked and did nothing.

one true king
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Stannis the Mannis 4ever!
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"COME WITH ME AND TAKE THIS CITY!"

fuck yeah Stannis made the show so much better
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Probably a pointless question given how reckless the writers are now, but what exactly is Dany's logic when she says "I'm killing them so future generations won't have to live under a tyrant"?

Isn't she advocating for the same exact system of government that they currently have? I guess she can be a more "just" ruler, but Cersei never really oppressed her people any more than other absolute sovereigns did... right? It just seems silly unless Dany wants to establish some sort of democratic system of governance (which would make her motivations way more interesting, fwiw).

Two ideas here:

1) She lost all her love, now she will rule by pure fear

2) She wants to set a precedent that all who would oppose her (she views herself as justice) would die; Similar to: "We do not negotiate with terrorists"

Basically she's been reduced to petulant child who throws a tantrum because she didn't get EXACTLY what she wanted EXACTLY the way she wanted it

It's pretty piss poor writing; all they had to do was make ONE scene where they showed her internal struggle with her descent into madness

We didn't deserve it I guess

I'm assuming Jon kill Dany now, Sansa rules the north, and Bran becomes king for 'reasons' - Tyrion lives or doesn't, but all of his valued attributes have been reduced to nothing so who cares at this point

It's just ... bad

I kind of expect Dany to be killed pretty early into the next episode, and that much of the rest will end up being like an epilogue of sorts, showing how the various characters and kingdoms move on from this.
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I literally can't get over the fact that Dany had previously committed multiple [what are clearly defined warcrimes under current international law] that people just ignored because they were perpetrated against individuals that they disagreed with or didn't like.

Like, roasting the Tarly's is the best example.

You can't just execute non-combatant POWs
You can't force POWs to become combatants in your army.

This is all in the Geneva Convention, which should stand for a set of values that people in our society uphold, but so many people [in our society] are willing to pardon Dany because "The Tarlys sucked."

"She killed them because they didn't bend the knee;" Bend the knee to a foreign invader with no right to the throne? It's literally just POW execution, Tyrion advises her not to do it, and it's the impetus for Sam to push on Jon to take his claim. Maybe if she'd listened to her advisor[s] who pleaded with her to take a nonviolent path.

Like, she went into that meeting with the Khals expecting to murder them and take the horde. Yeah, they got raunchy and it could be argued that it "became self-defense", but that obscures that it was her plan all along because Daario and Jorah barricade the door. It was an assassination plot that is obscured because they decided to rape/kill her.

She literally has Mossador executed without a fair trial, despite Selmy's advise.

Let's not pretend that "her advisors were dead so no one could reign her in", there's plenty of evidence of her executing people against the [sound] advise of Tyrion/Selmy. She just didn't listen.

If someone commits a warcrime, they'll commit more warcrimes.

First she came for Mirri Maz Durr, and we did not speak out because she killed the Khal and probably deserved it.

Then she came for the Masters and crucified 100 of them even though some were innocent and didn't own slaves and we did not speak out because most of them were bad and we don't like slaveowners.

Then she came for Mossador without a trial and we did not speak out because he had disobeyed the Queen and it was tit-for-tat.

The she reopened the fighting pits and we did not speak out because "it's tradition and she banned slaves from participating" even though we immediately see slaves participating again and Dany turning a blind eye.

Then she burned the Khals in a premeditated coup and we did not speak out because they were threatening to rape her making us not care that she was going to murder them anyways.

Then she executed those two masters who had surrendered and we did not speak out because they had owned slaves and rebelled and tried to have that third guy executed instead and it was ironic.

Then she executed multiple POWs because they wouldn't agree to betray their country and fight for a foreign invader with no claim to the throne and we did not speak out because they were not nice people and had already betrayed Olenna Tyrell.

Then she burned King's Landing and we were shocked Pikachu.

You can't cite things like the Geneva Conventions in a medieval setting that exists well before such modern diplomatic inventions. As for your other points,
- Dany considers herself to the be the rightful queen, which makes her not an invader, which makes Cersei a rebel, which makes the soldiers serving her rebels, which makes their commanders valid targets for execution if she so chooses to pursue that road. It was a stupid decision, but not a war crime.
- The Khals all oversaw mass scale rapes, murders, and pillaging. If anyone counts as war criminals, it's them. They also brought Dany there against her will and announced that she'd be confined there forever.
- Mirri Maz Durr effectively murdered Khal Drogo, and as the Khaleesi, Dany became the one with authority to punish her. I don't think the Dothraki have a concept of trials, and even if they did, Mirri Maz Durr admitted it anyway.
- When was it stated that some of the Masters were innocent? They all at least did nothing about hanging women on road posts.
- Mossador she killed because there was no other way to resolve the issue that would clearly punish someone for murder and disobeying an order.
- She reopened the fighting pits after the city begged her to and on the advice of her advisers, which you said she sohuld take more often.
- The Khals suck and their culture just makes everyone else more miserable. They'd effectively declared permanent war on everyone in Essos and openly declared that they'd keep Dany there forever.

All of Dany's actions up to that point made sense and were for the greater good of making ordinary peoples' lives more tolerable while advancing her own agenda. And I'm not even a Dany fan, I always found her sections of the show to be the worst.
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I mean Daenerys has now committed more war crimes than anyone else in the show. Prior to this season the only person who had committed more was Ramsey.

Just because Dany considers herself to be the rightful heir does not make her so. And we actually know that she isn't the rightful heir even if we stick to Targaryen lineage

You're citing you can't apply war crimes to a medieval setting whilst then ignoring that in medieval times if your family was overthrown and murdered, your family is no longer the rightful heir. When Henry Tudor killed King Richard and took over the throne, we didn't get all King Richards family then claiming they were the rightful heir. The Tudors took the throne and then their family took over the lineage. That's how it typically worked in medieval times.

The Targaryen king was killed. Baratheon took the throne. The Targaryens lost their rightful claim at that point. Yes they can try take back the throne like she has but at that point it is an act of war as there had been a peaceful period in between

ShatteredElysium posted...

I mean Daenerys has now committed more war crimes than anyone else in the show. Prior to this season the only person who had committed more was Ramsey.

Did he?

Torturing Theon (Non-combatant POW)
Killing Rickon (Non-combatant POW)

Dany-
Executing Randyl and Dickon Tarly (let's count as 1)
I think crucifying the masters is probably also a warcrime
Forcing the Lannister army to kneel or be executed

Nanahara715 posted...

ShatteredElysium posted...

I mean Daenerys has now committed more war crimes than anyone else in the show. Prior to this season the only person who had committed more was Ramsey.

Did he?

Torturing Theon (Non-combatant POW)
Killing Rickon (Non-combatant POW)

Dany-
Executing Randyl and Dickon Tarly (let's count as 1)
I think crucifying the masters is probably also a warcrime
Forcing the Lannister army to kneel or be executed

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6902801/War-crimes-identified-Game-Thrones.html

Yes its daily mail but there was multiple sites with same article. That just had the nicer breakdown

Anagram posted...

You can't cite things like the Geneva Conventions in a medieval setting that exists well before such modern diplomatic inventions. As for your other points,
- Dany considers herself to the be the rightful queen, which makes her not an invader, which makes Cersei a rebel, which makes the soldiers serving her rebels, which makes their commanders valid targets for execution if she so chooses to pursue that road. It was a stupid decision, but not a war crime.
- The Khals all oversaw mass scale rapes, murders, and pillaging. If anyone counts as war criminals, it's them. They also brought Dany there against her will and announced that she'd be confined there forever.
- Mirri Maz Durr effectively murdered Khal Drogo, and as the Khaleesi, Dany became the one with authority to punish her. I don't think the Dothraki have a concept of trials, and even if they did, Mirri Maz Durr admitted it anyway.
- When was it stated that some of the Masters were innocent? They all at least did nothing about hanging women on road posts.
- Mossador she killed because there was no other way to resolve the issue that would clearly punish someone for murder and disobeying an order.
- She reopened the fighting pits after the city begged her to and on the advice of her advisers, which you said she sohuld take more often.
- The Khals suck and their culture just makes everyone else more miserable. They'd effectively declared permanent war on everyone in Essos and openly declared that they'd keep Dany there forever.

All of Dany's actions up to that point made sense and were for the greater good of making ordinary peoples' lives more tolerable while advancing her own agenda. And I'm not even a Dany fan, I always found her sections of the show to be the worst.

I mean, I can in the context of what we as people should or shouldn't find moral. "No, what Dany did aren't technically war crimes because that society doesn't have war crimes." Doesn't mean that contextually she's been given a pass for doing shitty stuff only because it's been to shitty people. Serial Killers don't start out killing innocent people, they typically start small by killing animals.

"- Dany considers herself to the be the rightful queen, which makes her not an invader, which makes Cersei a rebel, which makes the soldiers serving her rebels, which makes their commanders valid targets for execution if she so chooses to pursue that road. It was a stupid decision, but not a war crime."

She can consider it all she wants, but she wasn't and she's not, by any count. If I go into the wrong house because I made a mistake and thought it was my house, the existing homeowner can still shoot me as an intruder (castle doctrine).

Under modern definition, you can't execute POWs and we've decided as a society that such an act is immoral.

"- When was it stated that some of the Masters were innocent? They all at least did nothing about hanging women on road posts."

There was literally an entire thing where the dudes dad opposed slavery and crucifying the slaves and Dany crucified the dude's dad anyways.

"- Mossador she killed because there was no other way to resolve the issue that would clearly punish someone for murder and disobeying an order."

Punish him after a trial, which was what Selmy advocated for and she ignored him.

"- She reopened the fighting pits after the city begged her to and on the advice of her advisers, which you said she sohuld take more often."

I definitely didn't list Hizdahr as an advisor, and she literally allowed slaves to be used to fight in the pits.

ShatteredElysium posted...

Nanahara715 posted...

ShatteredElysium posted...

I mean Daenerys has now committed more war crimes than anyone else in the show. Prior to this season the only person who had committed more was Ramsey.

Did he?

Torturing Theon (Non-combatant POW)
Killing Rickon (Non-combatant POW)

Dany-
Executing Randyl and Dickon Tarly (let's count as 1)
I think crucifying the masters is probably also a warcrime
Forcing the Lannister army to kneel or be executed

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6902801/War-crimes-identified-Game-Thrones.html

Yes its daily mail but there was multiple sites with same article. That just had the nicer breakdown

Is Jon's "4x uses of child soldiers" just Olly four times, or is Grenn et al not passed the age of majority when Jon has them hold the gate?

I think you're confusing support for Daenerys's actions as a ruler within the fucked up moral framework of medieval society with actual condoning of her actions from a moral standpoint.

I mean in the North your lord can decide within fairness that you are disloyal and behead you. We're expected to view that as extremely honorable, in-universe. I feel that Jaime would have been executed as a POW if they didnt need him as a bargaining chip even before Cat freed him. I don't think keeping prisoners in the series is about humane conditions.

We are repeatedly shown that trials are complete farces either through lords just wanting you dead or, my favorite, getting two completely unrelated people to fight to the death to decide the outcome.

So if Dany's biggest flaw is that she is working within the established system of violence to try and obtain justice, I maintain that she really wasn't any worse and in some respects much better than other rulers. Until recently, obviously.
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How can you be called a Master and not own slaves. Thats just not using your brain at all. And yes I think it goes a little further than didnt agree with. Kill and crucify all those slaving bastards.

Robert Baratheon usurped, conquered and executed innocent people in his bid for power and people still like him. Stannis killed his own daughter and people still like him and killer her horribly, and his own family because he thought he had the right to the throne. People say Dany stood by and watched her brother die? Stannis directly killed his bro and his bro hadnt even abused him his entire life. I think theres something else at work when people hate Dany more for doing some of this. Shes definitely done some indefensible stuff like killing the Tarlys and Kings Lansing, but war isnt suddenly worse when you overwhelmingly win. Back when Stannis was invading Kings Landing what do you think he would have done to the innocent people in hiding? Let them go with a jaunty smile as they chant Stannis the Mannis? No hes let his men rape the woman to death, kill the other claimants to the throne just like Robert did. Which are, yes, innocent little kids. Doesnt much Dany good just makes her not any anyone worse than other conquerors.

Masters were a social class, and not necessarily slavers, at least to my understanding.
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Was Robert Baratheon as king really that bad? Yes he got there via usurping but the king before him was literally mad. Things didn't seem all that bad when Robert was king. Granted it's been ages since I watched the earlier seasons but maybe I'm forgetting how bad he was but in my mind he was fat and lazy and overly indulgent but things weren't that bad and with Ned as his hand, things probably would have gotten better. Just remembered his penchant for murdering Targaryen after taking the throne, that's obviously an issue but other than that why were things bad? I'm sure theres something obvious I'm forgetting

Joffrey as king was obviously worse and problematic

Tommen was a problem as he was a pawn and the two sides fighting over him weren't great. Although Tyrell/Lannister could have worked if not for Cersei and if high sparrow was kept in check

Cersei as queen was only really bad for certain people and also because of her unwillingness to take the night king threat seriously.

Looking it up I guess the consensus is that he was a good wartime leader but a bad peacetime leader and racked up a lot of debt and left his council to run things as he didn't care or know how to run it himself.

He also overlooked the war crimes of some of his guys (Tywin and the Mountain)

ShatteredElysium posted...

Although Tyrell/Lannister could have worked if not for Cersei and if high sparrow was kept in check

Depends on if you count purging the lords of 4/7 kingdoms as working. Also completely destabilizing the Riverlands and the North as well. Tywin/Lannisters made a LOT of enemies.

Obviously things would be way better if Bobby B was on the throne but we can't have nice things. and you still end up with Dany/Dorne/Highgarden? against everyone else.
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Well the Tyrell/Lannister combo would be Tommen and Margaery. Tywin is dead at that point and the main point of animosity would likely be towards Cersei/Jaime rather than the ones sat on the throne. I'd have to imagine at that point Cersei eventually gets taken out by either Arya or someone from Dorne since I think the main people against her then are the martella for Oberyns death and Arya for her family.

Although thinking about it the real issue with Tommen/Margaery would come down the line from when it inevitably comes out that Tommen is Jaime's son.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

ShatteredElysium posted...

Although Tyrell/Lannister could have worked if not for Cersei and if high sparrow was kept in check

Depends on if you count purging the lords of 4/7 kingdoms as working. Also completely destabilizing the Riverlands and the North as well. Tywin/Lannisters made a LOT of enemies.

Obviously things would be way better if Bobby B was on the throne but we can't have nice things. and you still end up with Dany/Dorne/Highgarden? against everyone else.

Nah, if Bobby B lived, Dorne chills with them because Joffrey never ascends and is forced to marry Sansa, so Margaery doesn't marry Joffrey so he never gets poisoned, so Tyrion is never accused of murder and Oberyn doesn't die in trial by combat so Ellaria never seeks revenge and doesn't poison Myrcella who then marries Trystane and solidifies the Dorne/Baratheon alliance. With Bobby B, Stannis doesn't assert a claim and kill Renly, who remains with Margaery, and thus has Highgarden as an ally as well.

ShatteredElysium posted...

Looking it up I guess the consensus is that he was a good wartime leader but a bad peacetime leader and racked up a lot of debt and left his council to run things as he didn't care or know how to run it himself.

He also overlooked the war crimes of some of his guys (Tywin and the Mountain)

It is unfortunate that the Iron Bank plot line got dropped in the show. The throne is currently broke.

Basically with Robert on the throne you potentially have:

Dorne being pissed about the Mountain raping/killing the Martell woman and going unpunished.

You have the unrest between Starks/Lannisters because of Tywin but I think Ned eventually fixes that.

Dany eventually getting there and fighting for her claim although this can possibly be quelled because Ned knows of Jon's true lineage. Robert is bold but he isn't stupid enough to get burned by 3 dragons and Ned wouldn't bring up Jon's lineage until that point so Jon would be safe. I'm not sure how that one ends though but it isn't going to end in fire and blood. Maybe some sort of marriage between Jon and Myrcella? Or Daenerys and ugh it would be Joffrey right...

The Night King doesn't breach the wall as he doesn't get a dragon

So basically the fucking Boar is the root of all our problems.

It was already outed that Tommen was Jaime's son. The Tyrells didn't actually care, they just wanted the throne. They swapped teams from Renly to Lannister, they don't give a shit.

In that case I agree the Tyrells could have salvaged things if they dealt with Dorne. But things are kind of a wreck at that point.
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You know maybe if Robert is still on the throne and the Jon thing comes out with Dany turning up with dragons. They just give Dany the throne since Jon doesn't want it and the real reason for the rebellion comes out (i.e. Lyanna wasn't abducted). Robert doesn't seem to give a fuck about being king anyway and him learning that Lyanna wasn't abducted could either send him spiralling out of control or just break him and say fuck it take the damn throne since he got it based on misinformation

Or maybe at that point Jon does want it as he hasn't experienced all the shit he went through and Dany may be willing to concede to him or at least rule with him because she hasn't been through the Westeros shit and would at least know she's next in line and a Targaryen was on the throne

Then you just have to deal with a scheming pissed Cersei but far easier to keep her in check from the throne with 3 dragons in hand

But Jon didn't actually have a claim to the throne until he died, as he (unknowingly) gave it up when he took the black. Which in hindsight, was probably done purposely by Ned to further protect him.
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Dorne is weird in the "Robert on the theone" scenario because they'd still be pissed but less so. In the books, they've been plotting against Robert since the rebellion, but this was totally scrapped for Sand Snakes bullshit. In show logic you either have to pick between them suddenly chilling out or Sand Snakes bullshit still happening, this time with Oberyn too.

I don't know what the fuck Renly was doing before we see him but he certainly never seems to give a single shit about his brothers. The Tyrells I see as total opportunists and they were originally loyal to Targs.

Robert probably goes nuts and tries to have Ned or Jon killed if he finds out about Jon, as Ned suspected he would all along. Jon stull has taken the black at this point, though, and no idea how his story goes with Ned still alive. Or how the Ned vs Cersei plot is resolved without Robert dying. Does Robert just have Cersei and Jaime executed?

I do want this AU spinoff now
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Nanahara715 posted...

I literally can't get over the fact that Dany had previously committed multiple [what are clearly defined warcrimes under current international law] that people just ignored because they were perpetrated against individuals that they disagreed with or didn't like.

Like, roasting the Tarly's is the best example.

You can't just execute non-combatant POWs
You can't force POWs to become combatants in your army.

This is all in the Geneva Convention, which should stand for a set of values that people in our society uphold, but so many people [in our society] are willing to pardon Dany because "The Tarlys sucked."

"She killed them because they didn't bend the knee;" Bend the knee to a foreign invader with no right to the throne? It's literally just POW execution, Tyrion advises her not to do it, and it's the impetus for Sam to push on Jon to take his claim. Maybe if she'd listened to her advisor[s] who pleaded with her to take a nonviolent path.

Like, she went into that meeting with the Khals expecting to murder them and take the horde. Yeah, they got raunchy and it could be argued that it "became self-defense", but that obscures that it was her plan all along because Daario and Jorah barricade the door. It was an assassination plot that is obscured because they decided to rape/kill her.

She literally has Mossador executed without a fair trial, despite Selmy's advise.

Let's not pretend that "her advisors were dead so no one could reign her in", there's plenty of evidence of her executing people against the [sound] advise of Tyrion/Selmy. She just didn't listen.

If someone commits a warcrime, they'll commit more warcrimes.

First she came for Mirri Maz Durr, and we did not speak out because she killed the Khal and probably deserved it.

Then she came for the Masters and crucified 100 of them even though some were innocent and didn't own slaves and we did not speak out because most of them were bad and we don't like slaveowners.

Then she came for Mossador without a trial and we did not speak out because he had disobeyed the Queen and it was tit-for-tat.

The she reopened the fighting pits and we did not speak out because "it's tradition and she banned slaves from participating" even though we immediately see slaves participating again and Dany turning a blind eye.

Then she burned the Khals in a premeditated coup and we did not speak out because they were threatening to rape her making us not care that she was going to murder them anyways.

Then she executed those two masters who had surrendered and we did not speak out because they had owned slaves and rebelled and tried to have that third guy executed instead and it was ironic.

Then she executed multiple POWs because they wouldn't agree to betray their country and fight for a foreign invader with no claim to the throne and we did not speak out because they were not nice people and had already betrayed Olenna Tyrell.

Then she burned King's Landing and we were shocked Pikachu.

Thank you for the best post in the topic
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invoking the geneva convention is possibly the dumbest thing in these topics
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