Poll of the Day > Some honest thoughts about Game of Thrones among the Season 8 hate... (SPOILERS)

(+) Yeah! (+)

As in the topic title, if you're not caught up, SPOILER ALERT, but after the "Bells" episode, I've seen so many people give the "My boyfriend won't make out with me, so I'm going to blow up a city" argument, but that may be an oversimplification. (Don't get me wrong, Daenerys is still jr. high level shallow-as-hell, but for a DIFFERENT reason). So, if I attempt to play "devil's advocate" against the entire internet hate train, the biggest interesting interpretation to me for Daenerys' glorious trainwreck of a plot, is that she's actually very weak (one of the weakest characters in the series).

When you think about it, she's never had to actually FIGHT any battles of her own. Whether by sympathy card, or sexual affection card, or righteous do-gooder card, someone or something else ALWAYS fights her battles for her. With the threat of Jon taking that manipulative power away from her, her insecurity has become her biggest downfall, because she knows that she herself brings NOTHING to the table (and, in truth, never did). Without her dragons, and freed slaves, and killer body, she's nothing (and she knows it).
---

I think the bigger complaint most people have is that they've spent the entire series building her up as one of the main protagonists and a character you're definitely supposed to sympathize with, only to do a 180 directly into one-dimensional villain behavior simply because they have to have an excuse to turn her evil and have all of a couple hours worth of show left to do it.

A more nuanced turn over time or a less over-the-top turn now would probably draw less hate.


---

ParanoidObsessive posted...

I think the bigger complaint most people have is that they've spent the entire series building her up as one of the main protagonists and a character you're definitely supposed to sympathize with, only to do a 180 directly into one-dimensional villain behavior simply because they have to have an excuse to turn her evil and have all of a couple hours worth of show left to do it.

A more nuanced turn over time or a less over-the-top turn now would probably draw less hate.

Pretty much. They never took the time to show WHY she turn evil. They just turned her evil because thats what was supposed to happen

Reminds me of the season 4 finale where Tyrion goes up and kills his father and girlfriend before escaping from Westeros. But they never explained WHY he went up there in the first place. The only reasoning was because thats what happened in the books, so lets just have him walk upstairs, who gives a fuck about why
---

FrozenBananas posted...

Reminds me of the season 4 finale where Tyrion goes up and kills his father and girlfriend before escaping from Westeros. But they never explained WHY he went up there in the first place. The only reasoning was because thats what happened in the books, so lets just have walk upstairs, who gives a fuck about why

Even worse when you realize he has literally no reason to be mad about his father calling Shae a whore. She IS a whore. One who sold him out and fucked his father. Who he literally just murdered. It really only becomes messy because they cut the entire Tysha subplot out of the show, and sort of conflated Shae and Tysha. In the books, Tyrion's a lot less conflicted about Shae, and their relationship is a lot more professional than romantic.

It would have worked better in the show if they'd come up with a different reason for Tyrion to kill Tywin, a different trigger that would have set him off. As-is, that scene kind of feels super-forced.

The alternative would be to preserve the romance and NOT have Shae be in the bedroom. Then have Tywin mention off-handedly that Shae hopped on a ship for Essos, and then swap Tyrion leaving Westeros to find Tysha to Tyrion leaving Westeros to find Shae, and have Tywin mouth off about Shae a little more strongly to trigger the killing.

Personally, I would have just inserted a scene into an earlier episode/season of the show where someone asks Tyrion why he's so loyal to Jaime, then have him tell the Tysha story. Then have the reveal where Tyrion finds out the truth, which in turn strains his relationship with Jaime and helps trigger killing his father. All it really takes is one scene, maybe 10 minute tops. And it's not as if the early seasons didn't have pointless filler moments that they couldn't possibly have dropped or cut to make room for it.


---

ParanoidObsessive posted...

I think the bigger complaint most people have is that they've spent the entire series building her up as one of the main protagonists and a character you're definitely supposed to sympathize with, only to do a 180 directly into one-dimensional villain behavior simply because they have to have an excuse to turn her evil and have all of a couple hours worth of show left to do it.

A more nuanced turn over time or a less over-the-top turn now would probably draw less hate.

I guess "rushing it" only helps in races and burglaries.
---

shipwreckers posted...

I guess "rushing it" only helps in races and burglaries.

Or if you're with a prostitute who charges by the minute.


---

Dany was on the verge of being ruthless before and has shown shades of the "Mad Queen" at times, but there was always a pretty justifiable motivation behind it.

Killing civies 'just cuz' is completely out of character for her, regardless of how pissed off and insecure she is.
---

I always saw Dany this way. Im not at all surprised by her actions more confused why others are?
---

SpaghettiCookie posted...

I always saw Dany this way. Im not at all surprised by her actions more confused why others are?

No kidding, she's always been a "get her way or kill everyone" kind of gal.
---

There are some things about recent episodes I thought were dumb, but it was inevitable for the show to get a massive amount of hate as it came to an end

Its gotten so popular and has so many moving parts, everyone has their own ideas and theories about how things should and should not have happened, and as usual the negative opinions are the loudest
---

Mead posted...

There are some things about recent episodes I thought were dumb, but it was inevitable for the show to get a massive amount of hate as it came to an end

Its gotten so popular and has so many moving parts, everyone has their own ideas and theories about how things should and should not have happened, and as usual the negative opinions are the loudest

That explains why Breaking Bad did so well.
---

SpaghettiCookie posted...

I always saw Dany this way. Im not at all surprised by her actions more confused why others are?

No one's surprised. They hate the build up, or lack thereof, given this was completely inconsistent with her motivations in the past.

The act itself was a sensible trajectory for her character. But without the proper buildup, it just looks rather contradictory.
---

I dont think the writers put that much thought into it. Pretty sure the simple she lost a lot of people close to her is the most accurate reason Ive read.

I have never really liked Danny, it's not a strong dislike, but over all I got tired of her character surprisingly fast, especially in the show (liked her longer in the books).

That being said, she was a good plot focus and allowed other characters who I did like to shine. I feel like they could have ended up with things the way they did...but they needed more time to lead up to it. I don't get her just changing her motivation and actions so suddenly. It doesn't make sense, and it messes up other characters in the process.

Honestly I could live with Danny going mad, she lost 2 dragons, Millesandra, and a lover...so whatever.

My favorite characters in order are Arya, Tyrion, John and while Arya (until this last episode) has remained fairly true to form and I like her journey over all, both John and Tyrion have been inconsequential this entire season (or actually made things worse).

Also, as a main side character who I would say was my favorite semi-redemption story, Jamie ......sigh...it was all good on Jamie actually, until he ditched Brianne. If they had ended the story there, I would have been happy. Him riding off for his sister, not getting in the castle, and dying with her as rubble fell on them, was an extremely unsatisfying ending. I would have been fine with him dying, but......I'm not fine with what he did to Brianne at all, or that he ended up tossing it all just to go be with his sister again.

One episode left, and I can deal with the lost Arya in the last one (even if it made no sense...maybe she got hit on the head and we didn't see it etc), so hopefully they don't screw with her in the last episode.

Maybe Tyrion will redeem himself and not just be a sad boi in the last episode as well.

Don't care about danny, hang her, crown her, marry her...whatever....have her own dragon eat her for all I care. I would like to see John step up though as secretly or not, he has felt like the hero of the story the whole time, only to be, a dud at the end.
---

Wolfy complaining again that Jon and Arya aren't superheros like Aragon and Legolas!?! I am shocked lulz.
---

Huh...

Normally there's a season or 2 worth of pay back in store for the current bad guy.. and Cersei dies by crumbling debris?

Great (but short) Hound v Mountain Highlanderish showdown, been waiting for that :D
---

So...., after seeing the finale, I still stand by my original thoughts as to WHY Daenerys "imploded" the way she did. I'm glad that the show didn't try to "justify" her actions (though she obviously did, from her character's pov).

I guess with it all said-and-done, the biggest problem this season had was merely a matter of pacing, because the narrative ultimately regained some coherence, but it was all so rushed, that the "plot twists" forced people so out-of-character, making it jarring and painful to watch (even though, deep down, much of it was highly predictable). Cramming it all into 6 episodes didn't help either (or technically 8, if you count the 2-hour episodes).

I'm sure the finale will still get buried in a sea of negative reviews among the internet hate bandwagon, but that's to be expected. Were there missed opportunities? Yes. Rushed plot-twists? Yes. Incoherent shit-show? Not by any means.
---

shipwreckers posted...

So...., after seeing the finale, I still stand by my original thoughts as to WHY Daenerys "imploded" the way she did. I'm glad that the show didn't try to "justify" her actions (though she obviously did, from her character's pov).

I guess with it all said-and-done, the biggest problem this season had was merely a matter of pacing, because the narrative ultimately regained some coherence, but it was all so rushed, that the "plot twists" forced people so out-of-character, making it jarring and painful to watch (even though, deep down, much of it was highly predictable). Cramming it all into 6 episodes didn't help either (or technically 8, if you count the 2-hour episodes).

I'm sure the finale will still get buried in a sea of negative reviews among the internet hate bandwagon, but that's to be expected. Were there missed opportunities? Yes. Rushed plot-twists? Yes. Incoherent shit-show? Not by any means.

Well, the real kicker is that she didn't actually "implode", she's always been like that, we just couldn't see it before, because her actions could always be confused as selfless compassion. Really, it was always selfish ambition to remake the world in accordance to her personal preferences, and, as she said nobody else gets a say.
---

I truly believe she started out a kind and sweet person. But she started buying her own hype. Believing that you are the chosen one or pretty much a goddess never turns out well.
---

Moonjay posted...

I truly believe she started out a kind and sweet person. But she started buying her own hype. Believing that you are the chosen one or pretty much a goddess never turns out well.

Yeah, fair. Also consider that different people deal with tragedy differently, and like most of the people in this she hasn't had the easiest time of things.

(Although we call my spouse's cat a goddess and she eats that up, but she's still really sweet. x3)

Moonjay posted...

I truly believe she started out a kind and sweet person. But she started buying her own hype. Believing that you are the chosen one or pretty much a goddess never turns out well.

jon simply had the high ground.
---

shipwreckers posted...

So...., after seeing the finale, I still stand by my original thoughts as to WHY Daenerys "imploded" the way she did. I'm glad that the show didn't try to "justify" her actions (though she obviously did, from her character's pov).

I guess with it all said-and-done, the biggest problem this season had was merely a matter of pacing, because the narrative ultimately regained some coherence, but it was all so rushed, that the "plot twists" forced people so out-of-character, making it jarring and painful to watch (even though, deep down, much of it was highly predictable). Cramming it all into 6 episodes didn't help either (or technically 8, if you count the 2-hour episodes).

I'm sure the finale will still get buried in a sea of negative reviews among the internet hate bandwagon, but that's to be expected. Were there missed opportunities? Yes. Rushed plot-twists? Yes. Incoherent shit-show? Not by any means.

Almost every truly psycho person views themselves 100% sane, Ted Bundy never told the jury I am a mad man and that is why I killed all those people. Her journey happened way to fast as they ramped her up to being a bad guy, but the Taergeryn line is like that it seems like half of them are bonkers insane and the other half make good leaders mostly.

Mr Hangman posted...

What's disappointing and telling is how many people see it as a "turn" or "going crazy" in the first place. From the very beginning she has loudly and repeatedly insisted that she has a birthright to rule an entire continent that she had never even been to. That is totally sociopathic thinking. No one has a right to rule anyone.

In the time of nobility and legacies it was a right to rule, this is like claiming that Henry the VI had no right to rule after Henry the V died. Yep in the world of democracy right to rule by birth is a silly notion but it was the law of the land for centuries.

That whole character arc was just so rushed and poorly written. She was 2 episodes removed from risking her life trying to save humanity from the threat of the White Walkers. By contrast, her father the Mad King became gradually crazy over several years. And it wasn't until the walls were closing in and he was about to be killed that he tried to blow up King's Landing.
---

Another thing I wanted to add. Even if you assume that her reasons for going crazy so quickly were legitimate (losing a dragon, Jorah, Missandai, Jon's heritage, etc) it was still poorly done. To make all of this happen they basically had to have the plot conspire against her.

Her advisers (some of the smartest people on the show up to this point) kept giving her bad advice, turning what should have been a quick and easy conquest into a trainwreck. Her enemies kept making all the right moves, with Euron just teleporting all over the place. Then we have Quyburn's scorpions firing arrows at mach 5 speeds combined with her just "forgetting about the Iron Fleet".
---

Mr Hangman posted...

No one has a right to rule anyone.

Almost 500 years ago, and for most of human history prior to that, almost no one on Earth would have agreed with you.

It's a mistake to think of anyone in Game of Thrones in modern terms or with modern assumptions about morality and philosophical dilemmas. They're essentially living in an analogue of 15th century England, and have similar assumptions to people from that time.



Monopoman posted...

this is like claiming that Henry the VI had no right to rule after Henry the V died. Yep in the world of democracy right to rule by birth is a silly notion but it was the law of the land for centuries.

Arguably it's exactly like that - Game of Thrones was originally inspired at least in part by the Wars of the Roses, just with Stark, Lannister, and Targaryen instead of York, Lancaster, and Plantagenet.

Jon basically fills the role of Henry Tudor to some degree - a child of two warring houses, who clearly favors one, but has the connections to appeal to the other, and a birthright going back to a previous king, albeit through somewhat murky connections (Jon Snow is a bastard, Henry Tudor has a Welsh father and his claim to the throne was through matrilineal lines).

The other main inspiration was 13th century France - and both were time periods when it was VERY accepted that succession HAD to be by blood, backed by the Divine Right of Kings. If anything, those principles only grew in strength after those periods (somewhat culminating in the Tudor/Stuart dynasties and the reign of the Sun King in France). You don't really see that mindset starting to break until post-Cromwell and the eventual revolutions of the 18th century.

If we really want to be honest with ourselves, the TV show kind of shat on its own themes and setting by making a radical jump into modern thinking in an attempt to appease fans (or just because that's how the TV writers see the world), which probably isn't the way Martin would have told the story (because he's never been shy about disappointing fans, and because he's keen on the historical themes).


---

Mr Hangman posted...

And none of that negates the fact that people who rule entire continents of people are violent sociopaths.

Careful, you might cut yourself on that edge there.


---

Mr Hangman posted...

when she acts like a psychopathic ruler completely typical from rulers of that period you whine "but this is totally out of character!"

Pretty sure the others didn't do a sudden complete 180 and start massacring an entire town going after one person. Her previous massacres were more for the good of others, or at least benefited others. This was purely selfish. It happened too fast, the turn from wanting to help the people to going 'fuck the people'. That's what felt out of character about it IMO.

Cersei was awful, but she was pretty directly awful.

Sure, rulers back in the day did some cruel and shady stuff, but nothing this sudden or on this level generally.

Sam shoulda become king just sayin
---