Current Events > Men shouldn't be making laws about women's bodies

(+) Yeah! (+)

thanosibe posted...

SaccharineSmile posted...

thanosibe posted...

SaccharineSmile posted...

emblem boy posted...

SaccharineSmile posted...

why should random religious men be concerned about someone else's abortion (or their life choices)

how does this even affect the anti-abortion person's personal life? it doesn't

If they see it as a human life even while in the womb, then to them, what they're doing makes sense.

And again, how does them being men have anything to do with it.
Hell, you know there are non religious people who are pro life right?

what makes sense? give me reasons

how do they see it "making sense" to not get an abortion?

take religious out of the equation, and everything is logical instead of "it just makes sense"

and because the law makers that push the law are men who have this idea that women are "their property because religion said so"

You do know theres a shit ton of people whose views on abortion arent rooted in religion? I know its an easy cop out for people that are adamant to never change their views. But holy shit. This association as an exclusive that all people not completely cool with aborting children regardless of the consequences are religious is a crutch yall need to seriously left off.

okay so WHY do they (regardless for religious views) think abortions are bad?

reasons like i feel or just makes sense to me fall under some underlying religious view

Abortions are bad when theyre made out of inconvenience. Like oh hey I had consensual unprotected sex and now Im pregnant and dont want to deal with the consequences of my actions.

I hold no religious views regarding abortion but its not a quick fix. Its a last ditch effort. Its weighed all the odds and this is my only choice.

so abortions are okay if they are made out of convenience?

eg. oh hey there are now complications with this plan pregnancy
---

_Rinku_ posted...

Here's a list of common changes in a normal pregnancy. These are not "Inconveniences."

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/01/24/686790727/fourth-trimester-problems-can-have-long-term-effects-on-a-moms-health

Here's an article about the various ways an average woman's body can be damaged in pregnancy and childbirth.

Those are certainly inconveniences.
As for that death statistic. 700 women die in child birth every YEAR. That's microscopic. 700 per year out of 3,855,500 births. That's about 0.02% of pregnancies.
0.018% of pregnancies end in death, 100% of abortions end in death. Still weighted against abortions on this one.

eridania67814 posted...

If we can't ban guns to save even one life, we can't ban abortions to save even one life. Bottom line, useless legislation to "inconvenience" people and force them to do dangerous things or break the law. Making it against the law doesn't make it wrong, just like making things legal doesn't make it right.

And I'm not -for- abortion, even though I've had one. I just know when you start banning abortion you get shit like what happened to that woman in the UK where she died of sepsis because her fetus died and the body didn't expel it and no one would remove it. I just know miscarriages will become manslaughter on that path, that women won't be able to work while pregnant because it might make her stress or have an accident and miscarry, and then women won't even be able to take care of themselves, but still have to attempt to carry a baby to term

That's a ridiculous argument.
"Manslaughter
The unjustifiable, inexcusable, and intentional killing of a human being without deliberation, premeditation, and malice."
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/manslaughter
---

Whether the mother is irresponsible or not has no bearing on whether abortion should be permissible.

Sure, defend taking away rights from women, but how dare they take our guns! The government is not a good source of judging morals, and they're meant to ensure rights of people, not restrict them
---

Ryo isn't even trying at this point.

_Rinku_ posted...

Ryo isn't even trying at this point.

I would say you aren't even trying at this point being as he just gave some statistics that you decided to ignore, not saying I agree with him by the way

NeverOffended posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Ryo isn't even trying at this point.

I would say you aren't even trying at this point being as he just gave some statistics that you decided to ignore, not saying I agree with him by the way

He's not a sincere person worth engaging, but okay. I was talking specifically about health complications, not death. He is moving the goalposts. It also doesn't change the fact that women should have the right to make that choice for themselves.

Also, he should source his numbers. A quick search shows they're accurate for the U.S., but he's not doing his due diligence.

_Rinku_ posted...

NeverOffended posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Ryo isn't even trying at this point.

I would say you aren't even trying at this point being as he just gave some statistics that you decided to ignore, not saying I agree with him by the way

He's not a sincere person worth engaging, but okay. I was talking specifically about health complications, not death. He is moving the goalposts. It also doesn't change the fact that women should have the right to make that choice for themselves.

Also, he should source his numbers. A quick search shows they're accurate for the U.S., but he's not doing his due diligence.

yes, they are accurate for the US. I thought this would be best, since it's been stated that the US has a higher rate of deaths resulting from pregnancies than most first world nations.
I don't understand where your "moving the goalposts" complaint comes from. I haven't moved any goalposts. I don't really have any goalposts to move.
I can understand your frustrations talking to me, since I don't give much weight to any of your arguments. But, to be fair, I don't give much weight to your arguments because everything you say is something I've argued for, myself, in the past. I know all the pro choice arguments because I was very pro choice in the past.
Ironically, the thing that made me turn against abortion was having my own reproductive choices taken away.
I don't really want to go more into it than that. It's pretty personal, after all. Also, I'm about to go to bed.
---

Ryo_the_Inferno posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

NeverOffended posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Ryo isn't even trying at this point.

I would say you aren't even trying at this point being as he just gave some statistics that you decided to ignore, not saying I agree with him by the way

He's not a sincere person worth engaging, but okay. I was talking specifically about health complications, not death. He is moving the goalposts. It also doesn't change the fact that women should have the right to make that choice for themselves.

Also, he should source his numbers. A quick search shows they're accurate for the U.S., but he's not doing his due diligence.

yes, they are accurate for the US. I thought this would be best, since it's been stated that the US has a higher rate of deaths resulting from pregnancies than most first world nations.
I don't understand where your "moving the goalposts" complaint comes from. I haven't moved any goalposts. I don't really have any goalposts to move.
I can understand your frustrations talking to me, since I don't give much weight to any of your arguments. But, to be fair, I don't give much weight to your arguments because everything you say is something I've argued for, myself, in the past. I know all the pro choice arguments because I was very pro choice in the past.
Ironically, the thing that made me turn against abortion was having my own reproductive choices taken away.
I don't really want to go more into it than that. It's pretty personal, after all. Also, I'm about to go to bed.

Sounds like you're vindictive because you were forced to be a parent. Doesn't bode well for the sincerity of your argument.

It's moving the goalposts because I was talking about the repercussions on the physical wellbeing of a woman during and after pregnancy. You decided to disregard this entirely and scream about how "few" women die in childbirth. Goalposts moved.

You sound like someone who was deeply hurt by something and you've let it darken your outlook on life. That's heartbreaking, and I hope you'll move past it one day.

_Rinku_ posted...

Ryo_the_Inferno posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

NeverOffended posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Ryo isn't even trying at this point.

I would say you aren't even trying at this point being as he just gave some statistics that you decided to ignore, not saying I agree with him by the way

He's not a sincere person worth engaging, but okay. I was talking specifically about health complications, not death. He is moving the goalposts. It also doesn't change the fact that women should have the right to make that choice for themselves.

Also, he should source his numbers. A quick search shows they're accurate for the U.S., but he's not doing his due diligence.

yes, they are accurate for the US. I thought this would be best, since it's been stated that the US has a higher rate of deaths resulting from pregnancies than most first world nations.
I don't understand where your "moving the goalposts" complaint comes from. I haven't moved any goalposts. I don't really have any goalposts to move.
I can understand your frustrations talking to me, since I don't give much weight to any of your arguments. But, to be fair, I don't give much weight to your arguments because everything you say is something I've argued for, myself, in the past. I know all the pro choice arguments because I was very pro choice in the past.
Ironically, the thing that made me turn against abortion was having my own reproductive choices taken away.
I don't really want to go more into it than that. It's pretty personal, after all. Also, I'm about to go to bed.

Sounds like you're vindictive because you were forced to be a parent. Doesn't bode well for the sincerity of your argument.

It's moving the goalposts because I was talking about the repercussions on the physical wellbeing of a woman during and after pregnancy. You decided to disregard this entirely and scream about how "few" women die in childbirth. Goalposts moved.

You sound like someone who was deeply hurt by something and you've let it darken your outlook on life. That's heartbreaking, and I hope you'll move past it one day.

I was, in fact, resentful for a some time, but my son is the greatest thing to ever come into my life. He loves to be tickled, he'll beg me to stop, but once I do he says "More tickles please". The first time I started him by saying "BOO" from around a corner I was worried I'd frightened him too badly, but his immediate response was "Do it again!" It didn't matter that he couldn't really be startled because he knew it was coming, he had me shouting "Boo" at him for the next 10 minutes! The most frustrating moments he's caused are leagues happier than any moment before he was born.
My dislike of abortion is stems from the pity I feel for everyone who never gets the chance to know their child. I don't have any anger towards any woman who has an abortion. I'm not saying a woman can't or shouldn't do it, I'm begging them not to do it.

As for moving the goalposts, I addressed the complications of pregnancy. I already said ending someone's life because of the inconvenience their life causes is wrong. Yes, most complications are literally inconveniences. Having addressed that already, I moved on to specify the largest inconvenience of all, death. It is a miniscule chance of dying from complications during pregnancy. I've heard most times an abortion would save a woman from complications of pregnancy, the baby is usually capable of surviving outside of the womb, so an abortion is unnecessary anyway.
That's my last comment of the night. Hope yours goes well.
---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNgwsT295G8" data-time="

Ryo_the_Inferno posted...

I was, in fact, resentful for a some time, but my son is the greatest thing to ever come into my life. He loves to be tickled, he'll beg me to stop, but once I do he says "More tickles please". The first time I started him by saying "BOO" from around a corner I was worried I'd frightened him too badly, but his immediate response was "Do it again!" It didn't matter that he couldn't really be startled because he knew it was coming, he had me shouting "Boo" at him for the next 10 minutes! The most frustrating moments he's caused are leagues happier than any moment before he was born.
My dislike of abortion is stems from the pity I feel for everyone who never gets the chance to know their child. I don't have any anger towards any woman who has an abortion. I'm not saying a woman can't or shouldn't do it, I'm begging them not to do it.

As for moving the goalposts, I addressed the complications of pregnancy. I already said ending someone's life because of the inconvenience their life causes is wrong. Yes, most complications are literally inconveniences. Having addressed that already, I moved on to specify the largest inconvenience of all, death. It is a miniscule chance of dying from complications during pregnancy. I've heard most times an abortion would save a woman from complications of pregnancy, the baby is usually capable of surviving outside of the womb, so an abortion is unnecessary anyway.
That's my last comment of the night. Hope yours goes well.

It's great that you love your kid. Not every parent does. Plenty see their kids as burdens or resent them, especially when they've been forced upon them.

It sucks that you didn't get a choice in the matter, but, cliche as it is to say, life just isn't fair in that regard. There will always be an imbalance between men and women on this issue because the man does not have to physically carry the child while the woman does. Maybe one day men will have more options for safe sex: they get closer every day with things like the pill (for men) and gel injections. Maybe in the future there won't be as much red tape barring young men from getting vasectomies (convincing a doctor to snip a guy under 30 with no kids is near impossible where I live).

But even then, there will be an insurmountable, biological imbalance. It's not worth your time or energy to be angry about it.

I'll be honest: I rolled my eyes at the "never getting to know your child" thing. That kind of over-sentimentality is nauseating to me. Personally, I'm never going to have kids. I don't care about "not getting to meet them." I know, that from your perspective, you can't imagine life without your son, and that is fine for you. Not me.

You keep downplaying the severity. An inconvenience is when I have to go to the other grocery store near my house because my usual one is out of mushrooms. High blood pressure and gestational diabetes can kill or impair you. You can easily go blind from either of them. And, even if the risk of death is low, a woman should have the right to decide whether or not she takes that risk.

Regarding where you said, "I've heard most times an abortion would save a woman from complications of pregnancy, the baby is usually capable of surviving outside of the womb, so an abortion is unnecessary anyway." Where did you hear this?

I'm feeling a lot of pain in what you've said, in general and specifically about your life. I hope your night is well too.

@Ryo_the_Infernoyour choice in the matter was every moment before you shot seed into that woman. This is not to say I don't believe, if a man wants the baby, he shouldnt be allowed to take every step to make sure it's born, but it is to say if you don't want a baby, keep it in your pants. That argument is never made as often as "if you don't want a baby, keep your legs closed" and that's the real point.

We as a society do not hold men accountable for making babies like we do women. It's a biological advantage y'all have that you can hit and quit and walk away. At this point in our evolution, we should be beyond that, where men are willing to go through the level of discomfort we do to attempt to prevent pregnancy. She on the pill, risking stroke, aneurysms and other side effects? You should also be on some sort of pill that, IDK, if possible, reduces sperm production, which might reduce your libido or some shit.
How can you be a father and have no appreciation for what a woman goes through just to give you a baby? A real father is a gift to society, but a mother is a gift of propagating the species
---

_Rinku_ posted...

life just isn't fair.

This goes both ways.
"I didn't mean to get pregnant, my birth control failed!"
"Sorry. Life just isn't fair."

Reading your responses is seriously like listening to myself about 4 years ago.

I don't have time to look things up right now, I'll try to do so after work, but basically, most life threatening complications happen midway or later through a pregnancy, and often times the fetus is able to, with medical assistance, survive outside of the womb.
---

I'll never get this line of thought. Anti-abortion laws are dumb and harmful, but both men and women vote these people into power. It's a largely Christian viewpoint held by a large number of people that has nothing to do with "men trying to control women's bodies."

Ryo_the_Inferno posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

life just isn't fair.

This goes both ways.
"I didn't mean to get pregnant, my birth control failed!"
"Sorry. Life just isn't fair."

Reading your responses is seriously like listening to myself about 4 years ago.

I don't have time to look things up right now, I'll try to do so after work, but basically, most life threatening complications happen midway or later through a pregnancy, and often times the fetus is able to, with medical assistance, survive outside of the womb.

Life isn't fair to men on this matter because of a biological fact. You're just being petty and vengeful here. You don't want someone else to have an easier time of it simply because you had it rough.

EIiza posted...

eridania67814 posted...

We as a society do not hold men accountable for making babies like we do women.

Youre right. Society is way easier on women regarding parenthood. The state doesnt force women to raise a child financially for 18 years if they dont want to like it does to fathers through mandated child support. Thats a hell of a lot longer and more burdensome than 9 months of pregnancy and the choice to give the child up for adoption (or even abort the child if she chooses).

Wow, ok, so you think I'm getting child support, I guess? I've known people who went 10-20 years without child support. And with abortions, the only one who has to suffer is the woman having her cervix stretched out and her insides blended! And then still also bleed for several weeks after as if she had the baby. And then the dramatic change in hormones that might be like post partum where she might kill herself.

If I gave birth and left my kid in a drawer at the hospital, they do catch you on camera and can press charges. I guess that's one way society is easier in a woman than a man regarding parenthood because we know when a dude fails to pull out they get him on camera so they can force him to be a parent or pay a fine or go to jail.

So uninformed, must be nice to know that your opinion is right and undisputed
---

If men have no right to the contents of the woman's womb, women should have no right to the contents of the man's wallet.
---

Fuparulez posted...

If men have no right to the contents of the woman's womb, women should have no right to the contents of the man's wallet.

The woman doesn't; the child he created does.

I dont want to get into this discussion as Im pro-choice for societal reasons rather than moral ones, but Im just curious:

For those who are pro-life, how do you feel about pregnancies caused by rape? I feel like people have been sidestepping this matter for the whole topic.

Despite what seems to be common belief, abortion and parental responsibility are two separate things.

Kami_no_Kami posted...

I dont want to get into this discussion as Im pro-choice for societal reasons rather than moral ones, but Im just curious:

For those who are pro-life, how do you feel about pregnancies caused by rape? I feel like people have been sidestepping this matter for the whole topic.

They're sidestepping it for basically two reasons:

1) If they are willing to make exceptions for rape... why do they think that "innocent baby" deserves to "die" over any other pregnancy?

Or

2) They are unwilling to make an exception for rape... and thus want to force victims to carry their rapist's child. This is vile and horrifying.

Men don't have to abort, they can just walk away. I'd they stopped walking away, you can bet abortion would become a non issue because no one would want to do it. They probably had sex with protection in the first damned place because they both gave a damn about the consequences. White cares about consequences when you possibly just outrun it?
---

Cant there be a compromise were a Doctor has a right to refuse performing an abortion and it cant be state funded?

EIiza posted...

eridania67814 posted...

Men don't have to abort, they can just walk away. I'd they stopped walking away, you can bet abortion would become a non issue because no one would want to do it. They probably had sex with protection in the first damned place because they both gave a damn about the consequences. White cares about consequences when you possibly just outrun it?

If thats a response to me, it has nothing to do with society holding men and women to different standardsthats just biological reality. Men arent allowed by law to just walk away from a pregnancy. People will make poor and irresponsible choices regardless of this.

How are they not allowed by law? If they're not present at the time of birth and you're not married, they don't even make it to the birth certificate. We don't have a master list of DNA and chips for location. Even if the law said they can't abandon their child, you have to first establish paternity. Guy walks away, no established paternity, no responsibility, no accountability, no punishment. Laws are all well and good to mention until you get to the "how do we enforce this" part.

And let's talk about that, how do you enforce this? Say every single second trimester or later abortion is caught, at the time or after the fact, and every single doctor performing these is jailed in that state. What happens to the concept of scarcity of licensed practitioners in a given area? Quality of care? Meeting needs of the public? And suppose every woman is jailed? I'm sure we can assume that many of them already have kids, and may also already be single moms, so what happens to those kids while she's in jail? The jobs those women perform? Everyone is so happy to put part of the workforce in jail and not thinking of the consequences in the community. Then what about the cost to run these jails? The lack of appeal of an area to tourism when all they got to offer is Walmart, two jails and two orphanages? How do you collect taxes for municipal needs when you cut the workforce?

This happens every time someone who never managed an entity, has no grip in the way society actually works, or thinks any social issue is in a vacuum and somehow "fixing it" won't break anything else. I actually don't feel bad when politicians can't make something happen, just when they refuse to try, because solutions are complex
---

_Rinku_ posted...

Kami_no_Kami posted...

I dont want to get into this discussion as Im pro-choice for societal reasons rather than moral ones, but Im just curious:

For those who are pro-life, how do you feel about pregnancies caused by rape? I feel like people have been sidestepping this matter for the whole topic.

They're sidestepping it for basically two reasons:

1) If they are willing to make exceptions for rape... why do they think that "innocent baby" deserves to "die" over any other pregnancy?

Or

2) They are unwilling to make an exception for rape... and thus want to force victims to carry their rapist's child. This is vile and horrifying.

A pro life person can understand extenuating circumstances happen and in these instances a different approach needs to be taken while still wanting as few abortions to happen as possible. If anyone is being vile or horrifying in their posts on this subject its you.
---

thanosibe posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Kami_no_Kami posted...

I dont want to get into this discussion as Im pro-choice for societal reasons rather than moral ones, but Im just curious:

For those who are pro-life, how do you feel about pregnancies caused by rape? I feel like people have been sidestepping this matter for the whole topic.

They're sidestepping it for basically two reasons:

1) If they are willing to make exceptions for rape... why do they think that "innocent baby" deserves to "die" over any other pregnancy?

Or

2) They are unwilling to make an exception for rape... and thus want to force victims to carry their rapist's child. This is vile and horrifying.

A pro life person can understand extenuating circumstances happen and in these instances a different approach needs to be taken while still wanting as few abortions to happen as possible. If anyone is being vile or horrifying in their posts on this subject its you.

"Occasionally it's okay to murder innocent babies" is quite a bizarre moral stance.
---

thanosibe posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Kami_no_Kami posted...

I dont want to get into this discussion as Im pro-choice for societal reasons rather than moral ones, but Im just curious:

For those who are pro-life, how do you feel about pregnancies caused by rape? I feel like people have been sidestepping this matter for the whole topic.

They're sidestepping it for basically two reasons:

1) If they are willing to make exceptions for rape... why do they think that "innocent baby" deserves to "die" over any other pregnancy?

Or

2) They are unwilling to make an exception for rape... and thus want to force victims to carry their rapist's child. This is vile and horrifying.

A pro life person can understand extenuating circumstances happen and in these instances a different approach needs to be taken while still wanting as few abortions to happen as possible. If anyone is being vile or horrifying in their posts on this subject its you.

Nah, the people wanting to force rape victims to carry their rapist's babies are the vile and horrifying ones.

You're just angry that I've pointed out the hypocrisy of trying to take the choice away from other people.

hockeybub89 posted...

thanosibe posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Kami_no_Kami posted...

I dont want to get into this discussion as Im pro-choice for societal reasons rather than moral ones, but Im just curious:

For those who are pro-life, how do you feel about pregnancies caused by rape? I feel like people have been sidestepping this matter for the whole topic.

They're sidestepping it for basically two reasons:

1) If they are willing to make exceptions for rape... why do they think that "innocent baby" deserves to "die" over any other pregnancy?

Or

2) They are unwilling to make an exception for rape... and thus want to force victims to carry their rapist's child. This is vile and horrifying.

A pro life person can understand extenuating circumstances happen and in these instances a different approach needs to be taken while still wanting as few abortions to happen as possible. If anyone is being vile or horrifying in their posts on this subject its you.

"Occasionally it's okay to murder innocent babies" is quite a bizarre moral stance.

Not as bizarre as "all life is precious, but we use the death penalty here!"

Prison for abortions just isn't logistically sound, if you understand anything about our prison system, or our economy, or adult to child ratios, or labor force...
---

EIiza posted...

eridania67814 posted...

EIiza posted...

eridania67814 posted...

Men don't have to abort, they can just walk away. I'd they stopped walking away, you can bet abortion would become a non issue because no one would want to do it. They probably had sex with protection in the first damned place because they both gave a damn about the consequences. White cares about consequences when you possibly just outrun it?

If thats a response to me, it has nothing to do with society holding men and women to different standardsthats just biological reality. Men arent allowed by law to just walk away from a pregnancy. People will make poor and irresponsible choices regardless of this.

How are they not allowed by law? If they're not present at the time of birth and you're not married, they don't even make it to the birth certificate. We don't have a master list of DNA and chips for location. Even if the law said they can't abandon their child, you have to first establish paternity. Guy walks away, no established paternity, no responsibility, no accountability, no punishment. Laws are all well and good to mention until you get to the "how do we enforce this" part.

Youre moving the goalpost. If a father tries to get out of parental responsibility, the mother can get a court order to establish paternity. Even if he tries to dodge that, the state is still effectively forcing him to pay child support.

You said society treats women and men differently regarding parental responsibility, implying that it goes easier on men. This is just false. During her pregnancy, (except in a couple of states now, which is not the vast majority of cases) a woman can choose to abort. If she gives birth, she can give it up for adoption. Still her choice.
The father must abide by whatever choice the woman makes (by law) at every point.

Ok, if that's what you're talking about, how is that moving the goalpost when we were talking about abortion, not parents rights? They overlap, and should, but aren't one and the same. Kinda like child support court isn't the same as the court you go to for visitation and custody. And the only reason a father has to abide by that is they don't present any options. If a dude said *don't abort my baby, I have a surrogate and the money to perform the transfer, we have the technology, so give me my baby do you think they would say "nah, bruh, your opinion doesn't count here."
---

_Rinku_ posted...

thanosibe posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Kami_no_Kami posted...

I dont want to get into this discussion as Im pro-choice for societal reasons rather than moral ones, but Im just curious:

For those who are pro-life, how do you feel about pregnancies caused by rape? I feel like people have been sidestepping this matter for the whole topic.

They're sidestepping it for basically two reasons:

1) If they are willing to make exceptions for rape... why do they think that "innocent baby" deserves to "die" over any other pregnancy?

Or

2) They are unwilling to make an exception for rape... and thus want to force victims to carry their rapist's child. This is vile and horrifying.

A pro life person can understand extenuating circumstances happen and in these instances a different approach needs to be taken while still wanting as few abortions to happen as possible. If anyone is being vile or horrifying in their posts on this subject its you.

Nah, the people wanting to force rape victims to carry their rapist's babies are the vile and horrifying ones.

You're just angry that I've pointed out the hypocrisy of trying to take the choice away from other people.

Actually what Im pointing out is youre hilariously as vile and horrifying as the pro lifers you claim are vile and horrifying. But extremist shit posters rarely admit theyre extermist shit posters. And so here were are at this impass.
---

hockeybub89 posted...

thanosibe posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Kami_no_Kami posted...

I dont want to get into this discussion as Im pro-choice for societal reasons rather than moral ones, but Im just curious:

For those who are pro-life, how do you feel about pregnancies caused by rape? I feel like people have been sidestepping this matter for the whole topic.

They're sidestepping it for basically two reasons:

1) If they are willing to make exceptions for rape... why do they think that "innocent baby" deserves to "die" over any other pregnancy?

Or

2) They are unwilling to make an exception for rape... and thus want to force victims to carry their rapist's child. This is vile and horrifying.

A pro life person can understand extenuating circumstances happen and in these instances a different approach needs to be taken while still wanting as few abortions to happen as possible. If anyone is being vile or horrifying in their posts on this subject its you.

"Occasionally it's okay to murder innocent babies" is quite a bizarre moral stance.

What you posted in quotes is the kind of vile extremist shit Rinku is posting. I dont want any baby to die. No more than I want any criminal to die on death row. We should be doing all we can to preserve life. But there are things that happen in life that require us as a species to seek out what progresses us better. Not devolving into the extremist that permeate both sides of this argument far too often.
---

thanosibe posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

thanosibe posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Kami_no_Kami posted...

I dont want to get into this discussion as Im pro-choice for societal reasons rather than moral ones, but Im just curious:

For those who are pro-life, how do you feel about pregnancies caused by rape? I feel like people have been sidestepping this matter for the whole topic.

They're sidestepping it for basically two reasons:

1) If they are willing to make exceptions for rape... why do they think that "innocent baby" deserves to "die" over any other pregnancy?

Or

2) They are unwilling to make an exception for rape... and thus want to force victims to carry their rapist's child. This is vile and horrifying.

A pro life person can understand extenuating circumstances happen and in these instances a different approach needs to be taken while still wanting as few abortions to happen as possible. If anyone is being vile or horrifying in their posts on this subject its you.

Nah, the people wanting to force rape victims to carry their rapist's babies are the vile and horrifying ones.

You're just angry that I've pointed out the hypocrisy of trying to take the choice away from other people.

Actually what Im pointing out is youre hilariously as vile and horrifying as the pro lifers you claim are vile and horrifying. But extremist shit posters rarely admit theyre extermist shit posters. And so here were are at this impass.

I'm vile for wanting women to have the right to choose what is done with their body? That's rich.

You should quit projecting with the shitposter thing. No one is falling for it.

Imagine comparing a woman's right to body autonomy and a man and his money and thinking that it's okay lol
---

_Rinku_ posted...

thanosibe posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

thanosibe posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Kami_no_Kami posted...

I dont want to get into this discussion as Im pro-choice for societal reasons rather than moral ones, but Im just curious:

For those who are pro-life, how do you feel about pregnancies caused by rape? I feel like people have been sidestepping this matter for the whole topic.

They're sidestepping it for basically two reasons:

1) If they are willing to make exceptions for rape... why do they think that "innocent baby" deserves to "die" over any other pregnancy?

Or

2) They are unwilling to make an exception for rape... and thus want to force victims to carry their rapist's child. This is vile and horrifying.

A pro life person can understand extenuating circumstances happen and in these instances a different approach needs to be taken while still wanting as few abortions to happen as possible. If anyone is being vile or horrifying in their posts on this subject its you.

Nah, the people wanting to force rape victims to carry their rapist's babies are the vile and horrifying ones.

You're just angry that I've pointed out the hypocrisy of trying to take the choice away from other people.

Actually what Im pointing out is youre hilariously as vile and horrifying as the pro lifers you claim are vile and horrifying. But extremist shit posters rarely admit theyre extermist shit posters. And so here were are at this impass.

I'm vile for wanting women to have the right to choose what is done with their body? That's rich.

You should quit projecting with the shitposter thing. No one is falling for it.

Its funny that i never said that and thats the crutch you need to try and make a counterpoint. You should probably bow out now while you can as your counter points are fictional and embarrassing.

Try reading instead of seeing what you want to see so you can continue your campaign of shit posting through out this entire topic.
---

thanosibe posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

thanosibe posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

thanosibe posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Kami_no_Kami posted...

I dont want to get into this discussion as Im pro-choice for societal reasons rather than moral ones, but Im just curious:

For those who are pro-life, how do you feel about pregnancies caused by rape? I feel like people have been sidestepping this matter for the whole topic.

They're sidestepping it for basically two reasons:

1) If they are willing to make exceptions for rape... why do they think that "innocent baby" deserves to "die" over any other pregnancy?

Or

2) They are unwilling to make an exception for rape... and thus want to force victims to carry their rapist's child. This is vile and horrifying.

A pro life person can understand extenuating circumstances happen and in these instances a different approach needs to be taken while still wanting as few abortions to happen as possible. If anyone is being vile or horrifying in their posts on this subject its you.

Nah, the people wanting to force rape victims to carry their rapist's babies are the vile and horrifying ones.

You're just angry that I've pointed out the hypocrisy of trying to take the choice away from other people.

Actually what Im pointing out is youre hilariously as vile and horrifying as the pro lifers you claim are vile and horrifying. But extremist shit posters rarely admit theyre extermist shit posters. And so here were are at this impass.

I'm vile for wanting women to have the right to choose what is done with their body? That's rich.

You should quit projecting with the shitposter thing. No one is falling for it.

Its funny that i never said that and thats the crutch you need to try and make a counterpoint. You should probably bow out now while you can as your counter points are fictional and embarrassing.

Try reading instead of seeing what you want to see so you can continue your campaign of shit posting through out this entire topic.

Considering that's always been my point and you called me a shitposter for it...

Again, no one is falling for your act here. You are an embarrassment. Leave unless you have something meaningful to contribute to the discussion.

Women need to just stop creating life and see if men can do it alone. It would be worth it to see the species die to finally have people understand the power of a woman and respect it
---

It's called precedent. Maybe someone should try it, it's been a while
---

thanosibe posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

thanosibe posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Kami_no_Kami posted...

I dont want to get into this discussion as Im pro-choice for societal reasons rather than moral ones, but Im just curious:

For those who are pro-life, how do you feel about pregnancies caused by rape? I feel like people have been sidestepping this matter for the whole topic.

They're sidestepping it for basically two reasons:

1) If they are willing to make exceptions for rape... why do they think that "innocent baby" deserves to "die" over any other pregnancy?

Or

2) They are unwilling to make an exception for rape... and thus want to force victims to carry their rapist's child. This is vile and horrifying.

A pro life person can understand extenuating circumstances happen and in these instances a different approach needs to be taken while still wanting as few abortions to happen as possible. If anyone is being vile or horrifying in their posts on this subject its you.

"Occasionally it's okay to murder innocent babies" is quite a bizarre moral stance.

What you posted in quotes is the kind of vile extremist shit Rinku is posting. I dont want any baby to die. No more than I want any criminal to die on death row. We should be doing all we can to preserve life. But there are things that happen in life that require us as a species to seek out what progresses us better. Not devolving into the extremist that permeate both sides of this argument far too often.

What is extremist about realizing abortion is going to happen no matter what? Mandating abortions or legalizing murder of any child would be extreme, not simply having abortion available. And aborting more than just rape babies is good for our species. What would we gain from teenagers, poor people, and otherwise unwilling mothers being forced to bring hundreds of thousands of additional human beings to term? Crowding orphanages? Dooming more people to poverty? More abused children?

All I'm saying is the moral stance of killing babies is murder of innocents, which is a view of many pro-lifers, becomes bizarre if you make exceptions. When you throw around strong words like murder, how can you ever be okay with it? That's like saying you are sometimes tolerant of rape or child molestation. Not a lot of room for gray compromises on those kinds of moral views, at least not without being a hypocrite.

Very few people literally love abortions, nor do they want people to get them, but these same states trying to ban abortion also have shitty sexual education that results in teen pregnancy, infant mortality, and lots of abortions.

It turns out that not being weird about sex and having legal abortion is actually a good way to lessen abortions.
---

_Rinku_ posted...

Fuparulez posted...

If men have no right to the contents of the woman's womb, women should have no right to the contents of the man's wallet.

The woman doesn't; the child he created does.

Now turn that argument around about a woman's womb.

eridania67814 posted...

If I gave birth and left my kid in a drawer at the hospital, they do catch you on camera and can press charges. I guess that's one way society is easier in a woman than a man regarding parenthood because we know when a dude fails to pull out they get him on camera so they can force him to be a parent or pay a fine or go to jail.

What even is this argument? "If a woman commits criminal negligence she gets punished"

eridania67814 posted...

Women need to just stop creating life and see if men can do it alone. It would be worth it to see the species die to finally have people understand the power of a woman and respect it

Men need to just stop creating life and see if women can do it alone. It would be worth it to see the species die to finally have people understand the power of a man and respect it.
---

Ryo_the_Inferno posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Fuparulez posted...

If men have no right to the contents of the woman's womb, women should have no right to the contents of the man's wallet.

The woman doesn't; the child he created does.

Now turn that argument around about a woman's womb.

You are being intentionally obtuse about this. We have a wonderful medical procedure called an abortion that can solve this for a woman. There is nothing biologically a man can do to change his fate in this situation. You just want to deny this to women because you can't accept that there are physical differences at work here.

Also, you do know that some rudimentary work on creating embryos without the use of sperm has been done, right? It certainly won't be tomorrow, but the possibility of women literally not needing men to reproduce one day exists.

_Rinku_ posted...

Ryo_the_Inferno posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Fuparulez posted...

If men have no right to the contents of the woman's womb, women should have no right to the contents of the man's wallet.

The woman doesn't; the child he created does.

Now turn that argument around about a woman's womb.

You are being intentionally obtuse about this. We have a wonderful medical procedure called an abortion that can solve this for a woman. There is nothing biologically a man can do to change his fate in this situation. You just want to deny this to women because you can't accept that there are physical differences at work here.

You said the child has the right to the contents of it's father's wallet. Why is it different when it comes to having a right to it's mother's womb?
Because she can kill the baby? All of your arguments seem to come from the idea "Life's not fair, unless it's not being fair to my side, then we need to make it fair".
---

Ryo_the_Inferno posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Ryo_the_Inferno posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

Fuparulez posted...

If men have no right to the contents of the woman's womb, women should have no right to the contents of the man's wallet.

The woman doesn't; the child he created does.

Now turn that argument around about a woman's womb.

You are being intentionally obtuse about this. We have a wonderful medical procedure called an abortion that can solve this for a woman. There is nothing biologically a man can do to change his fate in this situation. You just want to deny this to women because you can't accept that there are physical differences at work here.

You said the child has the right to the contents of it's father's wallet. Why is it different when it comes to having a right to it's mother's womb?
Because she can kill the baby? All of your arguments seem to come from the idea "Life's not fair, unless it's not being fair to my side, then we need to make it fair".

Because the man cannot stop the child from being born. It is physically impossible. He has a duty to support the child he created once it's born. That's where the unfairness comes in, but crying about it is a waste of time.

If you want to continue being angry that women have an option that you don't simply because of biology, I don't know what to tell you. Learn to cope with it or continue to boil your own blood over it.

Also learn that you can't force a woman to be an incubator against her will.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer, and I'm not pro-life.

But I'd like to think the people who are so up in arms about telling women what to do with their bodies should stop and think for a moment about how that type of sentiment is what drives so many anti-vaxxers to call for people to stop telling parents what to do with their children's bodies.

Like, I know the caveat here is abortion doesn't harm anyone, but to play devil's advocate, pro-lifers believe it harms an unborn child. I personally don't think it does since again, I'm pro-life, but just something for both sides to think about since there's some parallels here regarding legislated morality.
---