Board 8 > Umineko playthrough topic 3

(+) Yeah! (+)

In regards to Bernkastel, try going back and reading what she told you in ???? for Episode 1.
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Surely it can't be only boredom. That's such a lame motivation for villains.

handsomeboy2012 posted...

I don't think I like how Bernkatsel is a also a piece of shit. Unlike Lambda I don't think there are any signs until the late in episode 4 so it kind of looks like the writer decided she should be evil right then and there. It feels very jarring to me.

same

Well I did go back to ???? in episode 1, seems like she is going sort of shady stuff just to achieve her goals. I do remember her saying she's NOT my ally, she just didn't strike me as the type to laugh in your face. Guess she stopped bothering to hide it.

To elaborate I'm under no illusions that she is 'good'
But she was portrayed as more... morally grey and dubious back then. I liked that more than 'hahaha fuck you because I'm bored', that just makes her another Lambda

We're jumping straight into the 2nd day with 6 people already dead. That was quick.
Maria, George and Jessica are among those killed in the first twilight. It's the first time a parent lives to see their children die (Jessica died before Krauss last episode, but Krauss didn't see it). Yeah this is definitely different, for one Beatrice would never kill Maria.

Just remembered that Maria was killed in the middle of ep 3... does that mean Beatrice didn't have control over Evatrice?

I remembered that George died before Eva in ep3 so this isnt the first time, still very rare up to now

There's a new blue haired girl fingering Natsuhi as the killer. The game throws me yet another character right at the beginning, I'm used to it by now. We have a new opening too, it isn't bad but the old song fits the atmosphere of Umineko more imo

Kinzo is dead! I don't have to see his face the whole episode! Time to celebrate!

I mean, there's likely going to be flashbacks, and who knows what the game master will pull. Kinzo was apparently dead at the beginning of each episode but was shown alive anyway.

Speaking of dead Kinzos, how would the epitaph work if there are always 15 people in the beginning? This is getting confusing again.

Krauss is actually dumb. I thought he's simply bad at business, but no, he believed that a NASA official would just show up and ask him to do moon tourism. In the 1980s. That's the stuff kids believe in and he's a 40+ year old man at least.

It's interesting to see the relationship between Krauss and Natsuhi here
He keeps posturing that women shouldn't be involved in business, but when things go south he turns to his wife for help, the only person who he can really trust and rely on

Damn, looks like Kinzo is showing his face after all. Beatrice is here too so this doesn't look like Natsuhi's imagination...

Something I'm thinking of is how the ceremony starts without Kinzo being alive, maybe he put it into motion already? And why care so much of the succession when he is going to destroy the family?

Am I to take this to mean Natsuhi is Head in all but name now that Beatrice is lending her power? The way the Headship gets passed on changes every time, episode 3 is solving the epitaph, episode 4 is some random test, episode 5 is by... decision of a dead Kinzo?

They're going to hide Kinzo's death and pretend he disappeared in the forest when the time comes. This is the same trick Kyrie suspected them of doing back in episode 4 until Kinzo came down to dinner. Real creative of Lambda to just copy that part from Beatrice's story.

But Kinzo was stated in red to be dead before the conference started. Still he appeared to be alive from ep1 to ep4. And now he is clearly dead.

If I head to guess, Beatrice did something on Natsuhi's orders to create a 'Kinzo'? Like, it's not Kinzo, but something that has his name and appearance and character.

Beatrice directly brought Kinzo back to life. Assuming 1. This is not the real Kinzo but an entity that bears his name and 2. This happened every episode, it would fit in some red truths from the last tea party. But there is still the problem of magical involvement which Battler is supposed to deny.

handsomeboy2012 posted...

Speaking of dead Kinzos, how would the epitaph work if there are always 15 people in the beginning? This is getting confusing again.

It doesn't really matter since to most of them they thought there were 16 people, and the epitaph can work even with 15 people (6 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1, only 13 people are supposed to be sacrificed).
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Raka_Putra posted...

handsomeboy2012 posted...

Speaking of dead Kinzos, how would the epitaph work if there are always 15 people in the beginning? This is getting confusing again.

It doesn't really matter since to most of them they thought there were 16 people, and the epitaph can work even with 15 people (6 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1, only 13 people are supposed to be sacrificed).

15 people does work but... Kinzo isn't included in there right? Like in the 3rd episode he is among the first twilight, so that means only 5 people died. Unless you consider him not Kinzo, but that's still a person; and if that is not a 'person', it would go against the epitaph.

Don't reply to this, maybe it's some sort of clue...

I went back a bit and checked

-Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games - when exactly the starting time? Does it count if he died and came back to life? What if he's dead at the starting time and was revived later?
-The maximum number of humans of the island was 18 until Beatrice lowered it to 17 because of Kinzo. However Beatrice only said 'I will lower that by one for Kinzo' and did not link that to Kinzo's being dead. Can I interpret this as Kinzo being dead and buried? Or 'Kinzo' is alive but considered a non-human? Or is there yet another person already dead/non-human, so you can have 17 humans + 1 non-human? Like, is Maria a human or a witch?

Maybe I'm thinking wayyy too much into the matter.

Natushi's plan is premised on Krauss getting a boatload of money in half a year. Terribly shaky seeing how Krauss' projects usually turn out.

In any case, if Kinzo truly was some sort of ghost more than a year before 1986, then there is some sense to Kinzo being dead in all 4 episodes.
What I'm seeing here though is that Natsuhi being aware of Beatrice which goes against her actions in those episodes... I think?

Like, if Kinzo's right there talking with Beatrice even after dying, there is no need for him to even do the ceremony or scream about seeing Beatrice once more. Is this all fake?

I really should think less and get on with the game.

What Battler is saying is not to take the scenes at face value, they could be someone's imagination or lies. Basically discredit everything shown?

Bernkatsel think's Battler's way of fighting bullshit using bullshit... is bullshit.

This game has made me change my way of thinking a few times and looks like I'll have to do that again. It's fun and creative, but when this is all over I think I'd like to return to normal mysteries to cool down my brain.

Child Ange was there in last year's family conference but I don't get to see her face or hear her voice! Shit game, I demand a refund.

I bet this episode is going to all about Krauss and maybe Natsuhi. Damn, how long are they going to keep me waiting for an episode on Rudolf/Kyrie?

How is Natsuhi so good at everything.
Wouldn't be surprised if Krauss not only has a inferiority complex to Kinzo but Natsuhi as well.
That scene where they were travelling was probably one of those rare moments Natushi got pushed around.

Kumasawa is brought up and hinted as a powerful witch... I know Virgilia appeared as Kumasawa in episode 3, but then they were separate people in episode 4. The conclusion I have is, I don't know anymore.

Battler cannot win by having Beatrice give up. I don't remember it and might be wrong, but that didn't seem to be the case when the rules were discussed. The whole game is going to be a farce if Lambdadelta, Bernkatsel or anyone else can change the rules as they please. And how is Battler supposed to win if Beatrice remains comatose and in a state of resignation forever.

Natsuhi is not talking to Beatrice, she's in a daydream.

Going by that logic... everyone is having a mass daydream whenever they see magical beings and got killed by something they imagined as witches etc. Turns out the Ushiromiya family are all delusional or on crack.

It would seem they're taking Battler and Beatrice's relationship in.... that direction.
I'm not inherently opposed to it. But it's going to be very difficult to make it feel believable after everything in the last 4 episodes.

handsomeboy2012 posted...

Natsuhi is not talking to Beatrice, she's in a daydream.

Going by that logic... everyone is having a mass daydream whenever they see magical beings and got killed by something they imagined as witches etc. Turns out the Ushiromiya family are all delusional or on crack.

Maybe there's a hallucinogenic gas leak under the island!
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Kinzo being dead the whole time brings me way back to episode 1. The mystery on how Kinzo disappeared from the room without going through the door can be solved easily with him never being in the room in the first place. The body in the furnace... probably does belong to Kinzo, they probably froze the body somehwere for a year or so until someone went and burnt it. Although I can't think of why everyone can see 'Kinzo' in episode 4 when he came down.

The biggest question here is who started the ceremony and why because Kinzo is too dead to start it and would not have a reason to anyway. Chances are that it is something else masquerading as a magical ceremony and there really isn't a ceremony in the first place.

Sure is handy to encounter an inexplicable event and dismiss it as imagination.

Natushi has a secret son from 19 years ago and is going to take revenge. That is some cliche plot element that keeps popping up in the mystery genre which I'm not fond of. This must be real as it takes place before October 4, so I can't ignore it, and there's no way Natushi would suddenly daydream about stuff like this. Ugh.

Ronove and Gaap appears alongside Natsuhi... the daydream theory isn't looking good, she has never seen their faces before, not even in a portrait.

The puzzle that can be solved even on October 4th... must be the portrait epitaph. I haven't come close to even solving a single line.
I want to give it another look but the menu doesn't have it. Why would you hide such an important piece of information, game.

Finally got to see the new girl Erika. Going by that English-y name and style of speech, I thought she has some connection with the family, but turns out she is a stand in for Bernkatsel to act as a detective. She might as well not exist or be replaced by another random character. That's disappointing, I only saw her once before this scene and thought she might be an interesting addition.

Maybe Battler would die earlier this time around. He isn't the main character on Rokkenjima anymore and has no need to survive till the end.

Lambda said in red 'the number of people in the parlor = the total number of people on this island'. Battler immediately assumed there 18 people. Cmon now, there's no way it's that simple, he should have caught that after 4 episodes of experience.

handsomeboy2012 posted...

Finally got to see the new girl Erika. Going by that English-y name and style of speech, I thought she has some connection with the family, but turns out she is a stand in for Bernkatsel to act as a detective. She might as well not exist or be replaced by another random character. That's disappointing, I only saw her once before this scene and thought she might be an interesting addition.

Maybe Battler would die earlier this time around. He isn't the main character on Rokkenjima anymore and has no need to survive till the end.

To add to this, I feel Erika could have worked well if you don't know her background or her intentions. It's hard to care about her if you know she is not relevant to the big picture.

In any case I might have been too quick to judge Erika. She might still grow on me over time.
I just wish she as an actual independent character so that I can speculate wildly.

handsomeboy2012 posted...

Finally got to see the new girl Erika. Going by that English-y name and style of speech, I thought she has some connection with the family, but turns out she is a stand in for Bernkatsel to act as a detective. She might as well not exist or be replaced by another random character. That's disappointing, I only saw her once before this scene and thought she might be an interesting addition.

Maybe Battler would die earlier this time around. He isn't the main character on Rokkenjima anymore and has no need to survive till the end.

fyi, the name 'Erika' is kinda unique in that it is both a Western (Norse-based) and Japanese name. I'm not sure when it started to be used in Japan, to be fair, but there are quite a few Japanese women with the name and it can be written with usual "name kanji." My name irl is Erika and when I took Japanese in college, my teacher had us write our names in Japanese. Most people had to use katakana, but those of us who could easily turn our name into kanji were encouraged to do so.

But yeah, Umineko's Erika is... something. I don't remember, are you familiar with Higurashi's characters? It's probably not a spoiler to explain the name connection, but I don't want to say more than you are comfortable with me saying.
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I dont know a thing about Higarushis characters and want to keep it that way in case I want to play it.

I saw Erika written in katakana in the game so I thought it is meant to be a Western name here. Which is funny because names like Rudolf and Battler are clearly Western but written in kanji.

The epitaph riddle is going to be solved... right now. And I don't even have a chance to read it again in-game. Whatever, I gave up on it long ago like Battler. Did any of you manage to solve it early? Is it even solvable before this point?

By the way... it's amazing how many times I and Battler think the same. I'm starting to think that was intentional on the writer's part.

I remember in episode 4 tips that Fragments are like... possible timelines, or something like that, and apparently all the games Battler went through can be considered a Fragment, so I'm no closer to understanding the Umineko world. I got a feeling that by the end of the whole game there will still be a lot of ideas left vague or unexplained if they are not that central to the plot.

....unfortunately the riddle will have to wait because it looks like this part will take a while and I want to go to sleep. I'll get to it tomorrow.

I can answer your question about the riddle if you want.

Sure as long as it doesnt give anything away

The riddle can be solved but it involves outside research and japanese wordplay. Apparently a few dedicated people were able to get it as the episodes were first being released.