Current Events > Have you ever done acupuncture before?

(+) Yeah! (+)

The mysticism is bullshit, of course, but I have a problem with setting my face in a hard frown when I'm not aware of my face, and that shit forced my facemeats to chill the fuck out.
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LordRazziel posted...

It seems, in many cases, they already prescribe placebos.

No. Your own link proves with none of those studied anti-depressants are doctors proscribing placebos.
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Frolex posted...

LordRazziel posted...

It seems, in many cases, they already prescribe placebos.

No. Your own link proves with none of those studied anti-depressants are doctors proscribing placebos.

Part of the confusion is that they have often been prescribed inappropriately for mild depression or sadness, where there is no evidence to support their use. They are serious drugs for a serious illness, not happy pills.
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LordRazziel posted...

Part of the confusion is that they have often been prescribed inappropriately for mild depression or sadness, where there is no evidence to support their use. They are serious drugs for a serious illness, not happy pills.

Claiming that psychiatrists have misdiagnosed or over proscribed anti-depressants is not that same claim that psychiatrists "already prescribe placebos". They have been clinically proven to be effective. That is not true for placebos.
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Frolex posted...

LordRazziel posted...

Part of the confusion is that they have often been prescribed inappropriately for mild depression or sadness, where there is no evidence to support their use. They are serious drugs for a serious illness, not happy pills.

Claiming that psychiatrists have misdiagnosed or over proscribed anti-depressants is not that same claim that psychiatrists "already prescribe placebos". They have been clinically proven to be effective. That is not true for placebos.

If it's working on the placebo effect, it's a placebo. Placebos can be effective depending on what you're treating.
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LordRazziel posted...

If it's working on the placebo effect, it's a placebo.

No, stop this. Every drug regardless of effctiveness can impart the placebo effect. These drugs aren't "working on the placebo effect", they have a proven track record of treating depression.
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Frolex posted...

LordRazziel posted...

If it's working on the placebo effect, it's a placebo.

No, stop this. Every drug regardless of effctiveness can impart the placebo effect. These drugs aren't "working on the placebo effect", they have a proven track record of treating depression.

When prescribed correctly they work, in other cases it's just placebo. When improperly prescribed, they're placebos.
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LordRazziel posted...

When prescribed correctly they work, in other cases it's just placebo. When improperly prescribed, they're placebos.

An incorrectly proscribed drug is not a placebo. An incorrectly proscribed drug that causes a placebo response is not a placebo. Unless you're arguing that the majority of these cases are the result of psychiatrists intentionally and knowingly proscribing drugs that are ineffective for their patients condition in order to stimulate a placebo response
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I tried it one time in a detox facility.

Tiny needles in the earlobe for stress relief or something.

It seemed helpful, but it was basically a meditation session so it could have worked with or without the needles.
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Frolex posted...

LordRazziel posted...

When prescribed correctly they work, in other cases it's just placebo. When improperly prescribed, they're placebos.

An incorrectly proscribed drug is not a placebo. An incorrectly proscribed drug that causes a placebo response is not a placebo. Unless you're arguing that the majority of these cases are the result of psychiatrists intentionally and knowingly proscribing drugs that are ineffective for their patients condition in order to stimulate a placebo response

If a drug is not working they way it is intended, but off the placebo effect, it's absolutely a placebo in that instance.
I'm not saying the psychiatrists are doing it intentionally. Many acupuncturist believe what they're doing, so I don't know where you're going with the intentions part. Also, I don't normally do this, but you've been snarky smart pants. Stop saying proscribe.
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JACKBUTTMOMMY posted...

One of my claims is that it supports TBI. Why is the link dubious? Are Chinese Hospitals on the take and not vested in their patients overall health and wellbeing? Also are you not aware that studies are typical first performed on animals?

As I mentioned previously I dont have a lot of time today so I will have to look at them later. I am sure there are studies that claim acupuncture does and doesnt work for a variety of conditions. I also mentioned several, not just three. Next time, specify what sort of research data and analysis youre looking for.

I asked for a study to prove your claim. Your claim wasn't that there might be tenuous evidence that acupuncture having neurological effects in rats. If you need me to specify that when I ask for I evidence, I mean evidence that actually substantiates the actual claim you're arguing for, I guess I'll do that. So then let me as painstakingly specific as I can possibly be: Do you have peer reviewed research to prove that acupuncture has been clinically demonstrated to be a consistently effective treatment for the myriad of health issues it purports to address.
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LordRazziel posted...

If a drug is not working they way it is intended, but off the placebo effect, it's absolutely a placebo in that instance.
I'm not saying the psychiatrists are doing it intentionally. Many acupuncturist believe what they're doing, so I don't know where you're going with the intentions part. Also, I don't normally do this, but you've been snarky smart pants. Stop saying proscribe.

But you didn't say that the drugs in some instances work of the placebo effect. You said of psychiatrists that they "already prescribe placebos". Within the context of the argument that a person recommending acupuncture to a person to intentionally stimulate the placebo effect is a comparable or equivalent decision. it isn't.
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nope.

seems any alternative treatment is fake news. only pharmaceutical pills and surgery can cure/manage pain the body experiences. sure everyone has their own experiences but these group studies show alternative medicine is inconclusive.

that being said, i kinda want to try chiropractors before acupuncture. acupuncture seems like it takes long to do hence why its expensive. i guess its expensive.

anyways i dont know anything about acupuncture. just general impressions here. like you bleed when they remove the needles right? like are you a walking scab immediately afterwards? like bloodclots at each point? like i see clips of needle removal and theres a bowl of water and blood right?
also, i need to ask, they dont re-use those needles right?
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JACKBUTTMOMMY posted...

.
How about a systemic review?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3534620/

My statement was that acupuncture helps with TBI. I never mentioned any particular species. And if it is still unclear to you, I agree more research needs to be done. Just because more research needs to be done does not mean it isnt an effective treatment. And yes when making requests in academia specificity and respect are appreciated common courtesies.

But no I personally dont have these studies. The public and private databases do. I encourage us all to continue researching it in order to better understand it.

Be well.

1. Your article is not a review evaluating acupuncture as a treatment for TBI specifically. 2. The only health issue that study was able to establish a conclusive link to with acupuncture was headaches, and even then they couldn't establish more than a weak clinical recommendation to it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3534620/table/T3/?report=objectonly

And do not be dishonest and pretend earlier that your argument was in favor acupuncture in non-humans because you never technically specified humans. Unless you're going to claim the opinions of the doctors and neurologists you claimed to invoke earlier are veterinarians, we both know that's not actually true.
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JACKBUTTMOMMY posted...

I chose a systemic review covering many conditions because acupuncture helps many conditions. You asked for just one study originally, for one condition. I figured since one study of rats wasnt good enough for you, a systemic study of multiple conditions for people would be.

I never claimed that. I just pointed out how a lot of research starts with animals and you never requested a specific study.

The National Intrepid Center of Excellence at Walter Reed Bethesda treats active duty wounded warriors with eastern and western practices. One of the things that has helped the soldiers, usually SEALS, with their headaches and migraines is acupuncture. Which would qualify as pain relief. I didnt make anything up. Hospitals, clinics, and physicians - definitely neurologists, refer to acupuncturists all the time.

You posted meta-analysis that only managed to produce weak correlative findings in one of the conditions it looked at. It also didn't study treatment of TBI, which was your argument was claiming in the first place. It was your choice to go with that study, not mine. If you aren't happy that study didn't sufficiently prove your claims, you should have picked another one. You claimed that acupuncture had a medically demonstrable efficacy in addressing a number of medical conditions. When I ask you for evidence to back up your claims, I shouldn't need to specify that you need evidence that actually demonstrates the clinical effectiveness of acupuncture. You say medical professionals endorse accupuncture "all the time", but how about YOU provide some specificity; What is the actual overwhelming medical, academic and research consensus on the efficacy of acupuncture in treating the list of conditions that you laid out?
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I had my second session earlier today. I have been testing out my arm, drawing at different angles, drawing in a circular motion, drawing downward, across...and my arm isn't feeling any pain! Normally my arm would be in severe pain after about 5 seconds. I was just drawing for about 10 minutes and had no pain or discomfort!

I had been having pain in my arm since the mid-90s, and pain drawing since around 2007. This is the first time I can remember that my arm has actually felt normal.

I don't know how long this will last or if I will have to do regular acupuncture treatments to have a prolonged benefit, but this is a major improvement.
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I have felt even more improvement after my second session. My arm used to be in severe pain after raising it or doing motions for 5 seconds, now I can last a few minutes before I feel any sensation of pain.

I am excited to see how things will be after all 5 sessions.
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JACKBUTTMOMMY posted...

Vol2tex posted...

I have felt even more improvement after my second session. My arm used to be in severe pain after raising it or doing motions for 5 seconds, now I can last a few minutes before I feel any sensation of pain.

I am excited to see how things will be after all 5 sessions.

Probably because acupuncture works - we still just need more research to figure out how. Im excited for you, too! Good luck. Just remember it isnt for everyone or necessarily a cure-all.

My Primary Care doctor gave me a referral to an orthopedic doctor, so I will still get X-rays and evaluate the options. Acupuncture does at least seem to be helpful immediately, though I need to finish all the sessions and assess the pain levels after them and see for how long the improvement works.

I've been reading posts on reddit where several people have given anecdotal stories of improvement, but the studies seem to indicate a placebo effect.

The reason I tried it in the first place was that this girl told me that a few sessions got rid of her pain and the pain never returned. At the very least, acupuncture isn't harming me and it isn't that expensive, so I have nothing to lose by trying it.
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Yeah even if its just temporary relief thats better than nothing.
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