Board 8 > Umineko Playthrough Topic Final Part

(+) Yeah! (+)

right, so my question is why would people lie about it? or why would they choose to see it that way? but of course, i know why kumasawa, genji, and nanjo would "lie to themselves" and see it that way. no clue if gohda would, lol. but the family members... theoretically... shouldn't?

i mean, i get that jessica really wants a boyfriend but how tf did she see yasu as kanon...? without realizing it was the same person as shannon? lol

like i'm reading my ep2 now and i have tons of posts about how i'm sure the mystery is solveable and wondering about the real physical details of how kanon and jessica died, while the theatregoing topic is like "noooo, dels needs virgilia to tell him how there's a physical explanation in addition to the magical one" and i'm just like, were y'all actually reading >_> or just assuming i was lost...?

i mean i guess i can see how people thought i wasn't trying to "solve" the mystery, but that's just because I expected the game to get to it eventually, I wasn't gonna go back and reread and take notes and try to get to the answer ever, because as you guys know, I went into this with video game mystery experience and not actual mystery novel experience.

Dels posted...

right, so my question is why would people lie about it?

Well, that's a core piece of the mystery itself. If you're still unsure about it after reading Confession and the manga version of Will's answer session, we can revisit it.

topic 2:
"this game is basically like "yo dawg i heard you like locked rooms so i put a locked room in your locked room so you can lock your room while you lock your room"

this was also not wrong.

topic 2:
"bernkastel tells me that beatrice did have a weak point in chapter 2, because she chose a weak move over an optimal one, almost like she wanted me to take advantage of it"

interesting. i wonder what specifically this is. i'll see if reading the manga helps, otherwise we'll revisit.

Post-Episode 2 mastermind thoughts:
"Shannon - I ranked Shannon 2nd a long time ago before she got any development because she seemed like she *could* go in this direction. Now it's clear she can't. Outside chance of her being the mastermind still exists, because... something about the way she had such a complex relationship with Beatrice, and the way she matured so quickly and fought Beatrice's ideas of life/love... could indicate there's more going on with her than we thought? But could also just be forced writing to develop her plot in an easily understandable way. Very likely not the mastermind, but not 100% ruled out."

"Unlikely because their character arc has a clear non-mastermind direction: Shannon, Kanon, Genji, Jessica, Kinzo"

So, this is where I go the most off path. We rebound splendidly from here, as you'll see as I keep going.

But I did lose the scent a bit, I have to admit. But you can see the seed of the "hm, something felt weird about shannon and beatrice's interactions" though which eventually blooms into the much stronger prediction later.

https://snag.gy/qTwQPE.jpg

yeah i literally explained virgilia's braun tube thing before i even started episode 3... gtfo whoever was posting stuff like "dels needs virgilia to tell him how it works" >_>

https://snag.gy/oweW2i.jpg

i'm noting this one not to talk about me being right or wrong, but because i want to expand further:

the beatrice that we know and love, like i said earlier this afternoon, is the evil, cackling, overdramatic one

there is another beatrice. she's sweet. polite. mind-mannered. and equally beautiful, physically.

but she's not the one we love.

and i think that's interesting, and it ties in sort of with the themes of how the best things in life aren't the most pristine.

https://snag.gy/mkH0CA.jpg

hm. does this mean anything?

the beatrice with the unknown gender is the 3rd generation beatrice aka yasu aka lion, right?

this scene is about the 2nd generation beatrice, who really was... female, yeah?

I will just say that this was an amazing playthrough and I enjoyed it a lot.
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from episode 3:
https://snag.gy/KbsMDz.jpg

wwwwwhoooaahhhhh!!!

Sceptilesolar posted...

I will just say that this was an amazing playthrough and I enjoyed it a lot.

Thank you =) And thanks for following along!

episode 3 is the one i'm gonna need the most expanding on because i don't remember the closed room circuit very well and how shannon and kanon's deaths could've both been faked in it.

Dels posted...

hm. does this mean anything?

Pretty sure it does not.

First Beatrice = Italian Woman
Second Beatrice = The one referenced in that scene/Rosa's flashback
Third Beatrice = Yasu/Lion

Yeah. Just a strange quirk of the writing that gender wasn't specified there.

ah. my posts from the episode 3 topic seem to say that nanjo is the one who confirms the deaths of the servants in the closed room chain. i suppose they don't get confirmed in red. and nanjo is obviously paid off. (a simple answer that the game even told you many times, "hey, nanjo could lie about it"), and in many cases he doesn't lie, but i guess the trick is that here he does, and that's that.

oh. but apparently beatrice in episode 3 confirms in red that the first 6 are all dead...?

huh?

does that mean shannon died for real then...?

hm. why did the killings continue in episode 3 after eva found the gold? if this was one of yasu's potential fragments, wouldn't yasu stop the killing at that point?

so is it that shannon actually died and the rest of the deaths were carried out by someone she paid...? in episode 3?

oh wait.

ok, sorry if this is dumb, but i just realized:

in the ep7 tea party, what happens to battler?

rudolf gets stopped by eva on his way to go find battler.

does that meant he ep7 tea party never showed what happens to battler?

and that's why it's the reality that ends with him leaving on a boat?

so is eva actually the killer in episode 3 after all? and EVAtrice committing the murders actually really is just a metaphor for Eva doing it...?

Dels posted...

so is eva actually the killer in episode 3 after all? and EVAtrice committing the murders actually really is just a metaphor for Eva doing it...?

What about Nanjo?

Dunno, I need Eerieka's notes to remind me the circumstances. Remember, this was months ago.

That said, I guess I was a bit dumb, and the plot of EVAtrice taking over for Beatrice was probably a very literal metaphor for the fact that Eva was taking over as the killer for this chapter

After Jessica was injured, Eva was constantly under Battler's supervision. Battler is neither the culprit nor an accomplice. By this, we can establish a perfect alibi for Eva

Eva was with you the whole time. So committing a crime was impossible for her. Of course, Battler-kun isn't the culprit. He wasn't forging an alibi for her, and he took the possibility that she was the culprit into account, watching her actions carefully. No chance existed for her to do anything suspicious! In short, at the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servant room

Ushiromiya Jessica has not committed murder! She was not involved with Nanjo's murder!! Her eyes were completely covered. It'd impossible for her to carry out a murder like that. And here's a bonus. Neither Eva nor Battler killed Nanjo, nor were they involved

The culprit who killed Nanjo was neither Battler nor Eva nor Jessica

Jessica's eyes were completely covered, and murder was impossible for her

No actions caused by Jessica's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo! This also applies to Battler and Eva. In other words, no matter how much you try to struggle and interpret it, neither Jessica nor Battler nor Eva is the culprit who killed Nanjo

Nanjo's death was a homicide. ...Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap. A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him! The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him

Iiiinteresting.

But apparently Shannon (and Kanon) both really did die...

And Eva... didn't do this, though apparently Eva is the one who, with Hideyoshi as an accomplice, sneaks out of her room and kills the others? Including her own husband...???????

Hmmmmm

And we established in red that everyone is dead, BUT the answer I came up with (and I think Battler later died in ep 4 tea part?) is that someone was fake dead, then killed Nanjo, then died for real, hence why they could be confirmed in red.

Gosh... could Hideyoshi have done it then? If Eva didn't kill him for real, since he's, like, her husband...?

topic 3:
"could this game... end with battler accepting beatrice? but when it happens, it's actually the result the player wants?"

yes, but in this episode it was a trick but then for the rest of the game its not. lol

This is why I'm still hung up on episode 3's twist and don't really "get" it, in retrospect

episode 3: "beatrice is actually sort of sympathetic, you kind of like her, she shows she can be a good person, battler seems to like her... maybe battler should actually accept beato and magic after all.... PSYCHE SHE'S EVIL YOU FELL FOR IT LMAO, AS IF"

episodes 4, 5, 6, 7, 8: "beatrice is actually sort of sympathetic, you kind of like her, she shows she can be a good person, battler seems to like her... maybe battler should actually accept beato and magic after all.... choose magic over trick and get the good ending, yay :D"

so like... why....? the exact arc repeated, but this time it was real...

oh, i noted:
"beato implied that of the first 6 deaths, 1 was... not a homicide, but also not a suicide."

not sure what that means then. must be about shannon/kanon.

hm

07151129

what were these numbers on the door?

https://snag.gy/KjaV1U.jpg

hahaha.

this is one of those posts that is fun to see in a playthrough topic, i'm sure

but i was just using it as a random example

and of course, that example doesn't apply - shannon is the mastermind but she's not "evil" "the whole time" and she's not "pretending" to love kanon, debateable if her love of george is fully pretend or not. (i think she forces herself into it, but it's not, like, a total scam)

https://snag.gy/wcSK42.jpg

aha, did the chapter 4 description say this?

because yes, that makes a lot of sense. like i've said, the story of maria and ange in episode 4 and how they handle their "magic" is basically an explanation for how yasu came up with magic. it's a direct paralell to ep 7's story, but 4 chapters earlier.

and it was a huge part in being able to solve for the mastermind, thematically.

Post-Episode 3 mastermind discussion:
"No new comments on Shannon, Kanon, Jessica. They have character arcs that have nothing to do with being the mastermind. "

Just dismissed totally. Well, episode 3 didn't add anything for them, they died right away.

But the very next post:

"I dunno, I don't wanna get caught ruling someone out when I shouldn't. I still think Shannon has a chance, honestly. Her wisdom about life and love really came very quickly. It's a bit suspicious. Her character arc could somehow play into a motive for being the mastermind."

waha! there's hope!

hm.

episode 4 topic:
"Maria talks about how the legend says that if one kid becomes the "bullied one", the others can be spared. So she's okay with being bullied since it saves others. Self-sacrifice. Unselfishness. And also, practicality?

If an action hurts 1 person to save 39 others, is it morally okay? The greater good. Etc."

i don't really recall this theme being relevant. does anyone have any ideas how this applies to the game's plot?

https://snag.gy/hPK9IO.jpg

yep

episode 4 thoughts, regarding ange becoming a prominent character and how the story should revolve around her:

"for battler, he is roughly connected to all the family members and vaguely connected with the servants, so anyone can be the mastermind and it'll somehow fit in with his arc as protagonist

but for ange, she is not as well-connected with many of the characters. ange cares about her own family and eva's. she sooort of cares about rosa through maria. she doesn't have any connection with natsuhi/jessica/krauss. unless that changes, they won't make satisfying masterminds for ange. and she's never met the servants really. so, someone like shannon for example, could be the mastermind of a game where battler is the sole protagonist, but it's not very satisfying for ange to find out it was some maid she's never met."

very interesting.

actually, this is roughly what i was talking about earlier, isn't it? we can say that ange was the main character, but the story revolved so much around battler and beatrice. who is beatrice? some maid that ange barely has any connection to.

https://snag.gy/BrYoy9.jpg

this was an interesting post.

the gist of the answer is basically, well, the killer was highly motivated by the fact that their childhood involved coming up with witches to mask how sad their life was. and the killer, as a child, loved mystery novels.

the killer specifically came up with murders that they'd be able to come up with "magical" explanations for

https://snag.gy/pM26fB.jpg

OMSSC

https://snag.gy/F3OjZU.jpg

i mean, yeah

sounds like episode 4 was literally written to make me realize exactly this. which is what i thought as i wrote those posts.

Reg posted...

Tom Bombadil posted...

it's like the magical entities are being written by a literal child who just wants to keep coming up with more and more ideas

oh hey he made the connection

He's somehow incredibly close to understanding the truth of everything, but he doesn't realize it and he wouldn't realize it was the answer even if he finished connecting the dots

i feel like i'm, like, strangely not being given credit here? 0_o

like, i literally did realize it, that's why i wrote those posts. it's strange to see me write a correct theory about the game and have the reaction be "oh man he doesn't get it" when I'm literally getting it

Shkanontrice I think is what people wanted you to get.
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https://snag.gy/LUocRN.jpg

i even said this lol

Raka_Putra posted...

Shkanontrice I think is what people wanted you to get.

yeah I guess so. But I got the gist of the magical world and what it represented

Reg posted...

Dels posted...

also, why would real-life-battler jump out a window just to prove a point

is it just because he hates erika that much?

He literally gets it

Then he disregards everything because he doesn't actually realize he gets it

but he gets it

i have no idea what this one is about?

GANON1025 posted...

Now that I've thought about it/read up a bit more about what's going on in the story, 5 is pretty cool (or maybe more cool? I already liked it). Like, about how Lambadelta is not pulling any punches and taking full advantage of "Yasu could bribe anyone to get them on their side" to pull of some crazy stuff. Like Dells talks about Eva being too happy, and that's because she's in on the "fake murder" plot, and just thinks she's pulling a prank on someone she hates. She has no idea everyone is dead.

i still have no idea what episode 5 was about lol. i'll read the manga later, but if not, feel free to fill me in.

Dels posted...

Reg posted...

Dels posted...

also, why would real-life-battler jump out a window just to prove a point

is it just because he hates erika that much?

He literally gets it

Then he disregards everything because he doesn't actually realize he gets it

but he gets it

i have no idea what this one is about?

A huge chunk of the "real world" explanations for Eps 5 and 6 were literally that everybody hated Erika that much <_<

oh, because ep5 was also "just a prank" like ep 6 was?

post-episode 4 character rankings:

Tier #3 Characters I Dont Care About

20) Shannon (Down 2 spots)- Im just over it. I knew everything there was to know about her from her first 10 minutes on screen. Timid, shy, loves George, wants to explore the world, gets a growth arc and confidence and now never shuts up about it. (But is still timid and shy because shes a maid clich and she cant change that)

so, this is another post that looks really funny from the spectator's point of view

"i knew everything there was to know about shannon from her first 10 minutes on screen"

hahaha, what a fool, that's the mastermind! he doesn't realize how little he knows about her!

but here's the thing:

my statement isn't wrong.

and that's what makes it good writing.

i talked a bit earlier about how a good story has proper foreshadowing, and how the ending should be a natural conclusion from the stuff you've been shown. twists are lovely, but a twist should always fit in to the story, not just be an excuse to shake things up for no reason.

But look at my description. Everything I said is still true - except that she actually loves Battler (...and Jessica...????) instead of just George

Everything else about Shannon's mastermind motivation is consistent with her character. And that's part of what makes it a good reveal. It's NOT like it was all fake and she's just evil. She really is exactly the person we met in episode 1.

post-episode 4 mastermind discussion:

Shannon - This is still my dark horse pick. There's just something about the way she had such a complex relationship in episode 2 that felt like Shannon's relationship to Beatrice, and the way they formed such opposites in magic use (a killer vs a defender) that make me wonder if Shannon has stronger connections to magic stuff than we know. The magic stuff is all fake, but maybe Shannon's strong views on the world are somehow related to why she's into the epitaph and stuff? I don't know. This one is weird, I just have a feeling it's not impossible. She just has a lot of complex feelings about stuff and that indicates maybe she has a motive or a strong desire to change the world.

it's so interesting how my little seed of "hm i won't rule shannon out" kept growing as i wasn't able to let go of it. "dark horse pick", funny.