Board 8 > Umineko Playthrough Topic Final Part

(+) Yeah! (+)

so in other words, in order to have the solution make sense, you have to take red truths of "Kanon died" or "Shannon died" as "oh, that personality just died"?

yeah, so, that's bullshit

Reg posted...

(And yes, Yasu is just hanging around the mansion out of sight during most of ep 3. IIRC, she stopped her own plans because the epitaph was solved and had no idea more murders were going on until she saw Kyrie, Rudolf and Hideyoshi's corpses at which point the stakes were placed and she started doing things)

ah, that makes sense. so she really does stop the killings after the epitaph is found. and the meta narrative of evatrice taking her place is quite, quite literal. sure.

...and so, how does nanjo die...? and why...?

Dels posted...

Reg posted...

(And yes, Yasu is just hanging around the mansion out of sight during most of ep 3. IIRC, she stopped her own plans because the epitaph was solved and had no idea more murders were going on until she saw Kyrie, Rudolf and Hideyoshi's corpses at which point the stakes were placed and she started doing things)

ah, that makes sense. so she really does stop the killings after the epitaph is found. and the meta narrative of evatrice taking her place is quite, quite literal. sure.

...and so, how does nanjo die...? and why...?

Yasu shoots him (then probably commits suicide, but I forget for sure)

And yes, as I've already said, strong agree with the frustration of red truth being bullshit with respect to Shannon/Kanon.

i see. and so the reason for the 6th game logic error thing is, kanon goes into the room to save battler, and then, redtext: kanon no longer exists in the room, because he... "becomes" shannon inside the closet.

and that's what that whole segment was trying to show me?

"without love, it cannot be seen" because kanon loves battler (technically)

...cool, so, yeah, that's bullshit!

so then for episode 4, the reason kyrie tells battler magic exists is because she was bribed. well, okay. so she just lied. whatever.

and then apparently, EVERYONE in the dining hall was bribed. including kumasawa and gohda...? because they escape and tell battler the truth?

and so when the red text says they "acknowledged kinzo's presence", it just means they were literally paid money to say "yes, i acknowledge that kinzo is here"???????

and why do kumasawa and gohda die in the end? shannon just goes and kills them i guess since she has free movement? ok.

and jessica's phonecall was also just her reciting a script she got bribed to say?

and the letter in the study in ep 1 was just placed by any of beatrice's numerous accomplices, and the reason it seemed to appear out of nowhere is because battler didn't see it so his PoV can't be trusted?

and the letter in the parlor in ep2 with just battler/maria/rosa was placed by maria because maria is always an accomplice?

and the letter in ep 5...? that appears at the doorway to the dining room...?

Dels posted...

and the letter in ep 5...? that appears at the doorway to the dining room...?

The knock never actually occured. The letter was something Yasu had the entire time.

i just don't think these answers are satisfying, basically.

like

"how was the chapel locked in episode 2"

"well you see, the entire list of half a dozen people who found it first just were all accomplices and all lied about it being locked"

well, yeah, it's fucking easy to explain anything when anyone can just be in on it. servants? they all just do what they're told. family members? just bribe 'em, they'll do anything!

and then there are situations that are like "catch the one time we don't confirm something in red"

like how bern's puzzle had a bunch of confirmations of "no one was hiding", but then for the one murder where someone is hiding, they just don't say it

like, episode 2, gohda/shannon/george

for almost every murder in the game, you get a debate segment where Beato says in red "No one committed suicide"

but for that one, you don't.

and so the "trick" is just a "gotcha" of "hey did you notice this is the one time we didn't rule out suicide? yep there's the answer!"

just like how the answer to the ep4 final riddle is "hey did you notice this is the one time Beato didn't say "No traps were involved"? that's the answer!"

so wait, why did rosa need to be bribed for ep2 first twlight? is the bribe to pretend the door was locked? or was it for her leaving the chapel early so shannon could kill the other 6 adults, and then pretend she doesn't know anything?

Also, just to be clear, the conspiracy was four people. Yasu, Genji, Nanjo, Kumasawa. Two people (Eva and Hideyoshi) were added in Ep 1. One (Rosa) in ep 2. None in Ep 3, and eleven (All except Battler. Yes, I know <_<) in Ep 4.

I don't disagree that some of the answers are less than satisfying, and I know four is still 1/4 of the actual bodies on the island at the time, but still.

Dels posted...

so wait, why did rosa need to be bribed for ep2 first twlight? is the bribe to pretend the door was locked? or was it for her leaving the chapel early so shannon could kill the other 6 adults, and then pretend she doesn't know anything?

Both. Remember she didn't know anybody was actually dead/going to die until she saw the bodies herself.

either way, the more i read about this stuff, the more i fully stand by my "when anything is possible, nothing matters" stance

when the answer to your murders is just "well, the killer could fake their death at any time and have a) nanjo confirm it b) bribed people confirm it and c) have it confirmed in red, and then for any murder, they have full access to any accomplice they want via servitude or bribes, and also anything shown on screen that battler doesn't see can be a lie, and anything any character says can be a lie from being bribed", then it's like...it all loses meaning, because who cares how they did it, they could do fucking anything they wanted

well, not only is four people "1/4 of the bodies on the island", but it is sort of five since it is shannon, kanon, genji, nanjo, kumasawa.

and it's not the number that matters the most, it's that it really just is "all the servants"

(except poor gohda)

now, "all the servants are working together" is a valid answer, but it's not a very satisfying one, especially since it's the first thing that literally all of the adults in game think of every episode. and like i said above, it gives them so much power that basically anything can be fake since the servants are always the ones finding the locked rooms, informing the adults, etc.

some other red truths:

"The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!

A different person cannot claim his name!

They definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon!"

these are all sort of bullshit. i mean, yeah, they sort of make sense if you define Kanon as a specific look/personality and like... whatever. But, eh.

above red truths are quoted from here:

https://sites.google.com/site/ralphmerridew/knm-transcript-ch-3

which i'm reading now

a site dedicated to saying why "shkanonatrice" is a false answer perpetuated by ryukishi even in the manga and interviews

he makes a claim that either a) ryukishi is lying and there is another answer or b) ryukishi messed up

well, i won't judge until i'm done reading, but i'd really just say b

it's hard to write a murder mystery, let alone one so epic in scope with dozens and dozens of crimes.

sometimes you take shortcuts and you fudge things a bit and you say "X died" in red when you really mean "they didn't die, but, like, their personality sort of went away, so, like, yeah" because it's the only way to string things together

and it works if the viewer doesn't think about it too hard, but unfortunately, i'm thinking about it

I sorta agreed about the "Kanon is dead" stuff being bullshit the first time I read Umineko, but after I started thinking about it and trying to understand Sayo's heart, the more I came to accept it.

"Shannon" is a servant name. It represents Sayo as a servant and her love for George. When Sayo is no longer a servant and George is no longer alive to love, she can discard the concept of "Shannon." Same for Kanon, except it is a servant name and a soul made to love Jessica.

All these red truths about "Shannon is dead" and "Kanon is dead" are coming from Beatrice, so you have to see them from her perspective. Since she is Sayo, this is her perception of herself. So when Kanon dies in Jessica's room, her thought it basically "I am the head of the Ushiromiya family now, therefore I am not a servant. Also I killed the person Kanon was created to love. Therefore, I have no more need of this name. It is dead to me."

Feel free to disagree with me. The great thing about Umineko is how many perceptions people can have.
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Never bothered to go much into Knownomore's stuff but yeah I'm pretty sure that just because the official answer twisted a few red truths in a way he dislikes does not mean Rosa is secretly the culprit. That he created an 8 hour long series of videos on his theory is impressive, though.

In general "personas" is probably a better way of referring to Shannon and Kanon than personalities, because Yasu is clearly consciously in control of which one she presents as.

On the "acknowledged kinzo's presence" thing, here's one of Battler's Blue Truths from the Chapter 4 Tea Party:

https://lparchive.org/Umineko-no-Naku-Koro-ni/Update%20148/34-4221.png
https://lparchive.org/Umineko-no-Naku-Koro-ni/Update%20148/35-4222.png
https://lparchive.org/Umineko-no-Naku-Koro-ni/Update%20148/36-4223.png

Given who the Ushiromiya family head actually is and that Yasu clearly would have had to reveal themselves in order for their plan that chapter to work, this one seems to be actually true.
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I mean, yeah, I guess that's it, Yasu "became" Kinzo by being the head with the gold and Kinzo's seal. I'm not too concerned either way.

I'm still working my way through the whole theory, but I do think it is impressive and it is very well-presented. But I think he is naive, to believe Ryukishi had this other plan in mind - I think Ryukishi just "fucked up" (well, he knew what he was doing presenting those red truths in that way, but they're flimsy) and that's that.

Eerieka posted...

I sorta agreed about the "Kanon is dead" stuff being bullshit the first time I read Umineko, but after I started thinking about it and trying to understand Sayo's heart, the more I came to accept it.

"Shannon" is a servant name. It represents Sayo as a servant and her love for George. When Sayo is no longer a servant and George is no longer alive to love, she can discard the concept of "Shannon." Same for Kanon, except it is a servant name and a soul made to love Jessica.

All these red truths about "Shannon is dead" and "Kanon is dead" are coming from Beatrice, so you have to see them from her perspective. Since she is Sayo, this is her perception of herself. So when Kanon dies in Jessica's room, her thought it basically "I am the head of the Ushiromiya family now, therefore I am not a servant. Also I killed the person Kanon was created to love. Therefore, I have no more need of this name. It is dead to me."

Feel free to disagree with me. The great thing about Umineko is how many perceptions people can have.

I mean, I don't disagree with you that that is the explanation for how you have to see it for it to make sense.

But I don't really accept that as a fair answer. Though, yes, the game told you many times that "without love, it can't be seen", and I guess that's a part of it.

The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.

Due to this red statement Shannon should automatically be crossed of the list of possible suspects for being Beatrice. Instead we should come to the conclusion that the person who is Beatrice is acting out the murders indeed because of Battler's sin but not because it is a sin against that person itself.

In other words that this person is carrying out the murders on Shannon's behalf or something along those lines. Now I am not suggesting that you have to think about that in the sense of hiring an assassin to murder someone on your behalf. At least that is not my theory at all. But I will talk about how this sin between Battler and Shannon relates to Rosa in the next chapter.

But when it comes to Shannon being Beatrice, one needs to use some really ad hoc reasoning to make this red statement compatible with Shannon being Beatrice. You would have to make the statement essentially meaningless in order to do that. For example you could try to say that this statement means that Battler's sin is not against the fictional witch of Rokkenjima. Or that his sin is indeed against Shannon but not against her Beatrice personality. In which case one must wonder what this red statement exists for in the first place, and also how you could possibly know that such a distinction even can be made.

basically every section of his essay correctly points out why a certain red truth or part of the game is flimsy, and then it goes on to say "...and therefore, there's actually a secret better answer" whereas I'd just end it at "it's flimsy. sucks, but oh well."

like this one is totally true. If Shannon = Beatrice, then you need to interpret this red as "Well, the sin wasn't between Battler and Beatrice yet, because the name Beatrice hadn't been chosen by Shannon, and she didn't have that persona yet" i.e. Beatrice only becomes a person that can interact with others after the scene where Shannon creates her.

Which is, like... you basically need to come up with a set of logic and terms that allows the red truths to work.

Ideally, a red truth should just be, y'know, clear, no dancing around it needed. Which is what the essay says.

i like the part of his theory where, since rosa is beatrice, it makes total sense why when eva finds the gold in episode 3, rosa immediately shows up and is like "haha oh you solved the riddle? yeah i solved it too just a minute later haha what a coincidence"

What's also really interesting is the fact that Gaap dresses really unfashionable to the point that her dress is outright ridiculous. Remember that Rosa runs a pretty unsuccessful fashion design company. When Yasu first imagined Gaap, Rosa would have been at the start of her fashion career. Given that and the fact that her company is still not very successful, it wouldn't be surprising for her to imagine a witch in an absurd looking outfit.

lmfao

btw why tf is gaap not playable in the fighting game?! what a disgrace!

Battler's sin is not between him and Beatrice. It is between him and Shannon, or between him and Yasu. Beatrice was born in between that time.

I will also point out this guess of Battler's from episode 3:
"No, umm, th-that's right! What about multiple personalities...?! Just like how you were originally another personality of Aunt Eva's, let's say Jessica had another, witch-like personality, which took the name of 'someone other than Jessica' and killed Doctor Nanjo...!!"

Alongside episode 2:
"So even for you, it should be alright to have times when you're Kanon-kun, and times when you aren't. Maybe the Kanon-kun you are when you act as a servant calls himself furniture and strictly limits his own will."
"...But when you aren't Kanon-kun, I think it's alright to live much, much more freely."
"...I wonder if it would be alright for you too, to have times when you live as Kanon, and times when you live as, umm... your real name. When you aren't Kanon, can't you become another part of yourself that you can like?"

It's been sitting right there the whole time.

I'm sure Battler's guess was countered by some form of red text saying that multiple personalities aren't involved and that no one has any name other than their own, or etc etc. But remind me if I'm wrong, and tell me what the red text counter to that is? Maybe it's just "Jessica doesn't have another name" and then doesn't counter anyone else. But I'd be really curious to look back at the whole episode 5 segment about the names in the rooms and how no one has any other name. Because that's where it starts to get real, real flimsy.

Either way, a character metaphorically believing that they become "someone else" sometimes is, imo, not something that should be objectively seen that way by red text. I expect red text to be factual.

Don't forget 'You are incompetent!'
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Raka_Putra posted...

Don't forget 'You are incompetent!'

Oh, yes, I actually intended to revisit this after Ep 6 but never did.

I was going to ask Dels if he thought the Logic Error was Battler's Kinzo-esque master plan to resurrect Beatrice by making her bail him out or if he actually, legitimately just fucked up and got outwitted by Erika.

Then remind him of that red truth if he claimed it was the master plan.

(Can't remember if it was actually confirmed anywhere, but the prevailing theory is keikaku doori in spite of that red truth existing)

Dels posted...

I'm sure Battler's guess was countered by some form of red text saying that multiple personalities aren't involved and that no one has any name other than their own, or etc etc. But remind me if I'm wrong, and tell me what the red text counter to that is? Maybe it's just "Jessica doesn't have another name" and then doesn't counter anyone else. But I'd be really curious to look back at the whole episode 5 segment about the names in the rooms and how no one has any other name. Because that's where it starts to get real, real flimsy.

Nobody actually says multiple personalities are unrelated to the red web, just that, regardless of that, the body of Jessica could not have committed the murder.
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Raka_Putra posted...

Don't forget 'You are incompetent!'

Also the incredibly objective and factual red truths of:
Hiiihhihihhihihihihihihihihihihi!
Come, Ushiromiya Battler, and kneel.
I'll make you my favorite furniture. I'll love you so much and make you my toy until you turn to ashes...
*cackle*cackle*cackle* hihihihihihihihihihihyahyahyahhahhahahahahhahahahhahhahhahhahhahhahha!!!

Dels posted...

Hm. I wonder if this leads to two different endings?

But, for now, I will choose...

Magic.

man I have been certain you were gonna go trick since like ep4
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This was a good topic series; thank you for doing it :D
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Tom Bombadil posted...

Dels posted...

Hm. I wonder if this leads to two different endings?

But, for now, I will choose...

Magic.

man I have been certain you were gonna go trick since like ep4

i don't really know why you'd have thought that tbh

You were pretty set on magic being fake and dumb for a while!
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I said during episode 3 that I thought the game was building to an ending where Battler does accept magic, and it is what the player wants. Episode 4 only drilled it in even more by explaining how magic is about your own PoV and creating a vision of your world and that if it makes someone happy there's nothing wrong it, but I said during ep 3 that it was no longer possible to deny the existence of the magic since those characters existed, even if just as stories on a screen.

Also, like, episode 8 is literally all about magic being the correct answer, so. The only way anyone could pick Trick is if they were still choosing to deliberately be obtuse and ignore the game's theme.

i'm also a little bit confused about genji's motivations and philosophy

i generally accepted that he's the type to do anything his master says, but

he doesn't, in one case.

genji, serving kinzo: "i will do anything my master wants, but i am worried he may commit the crime of rape, so i will hide his child from him"

genji, serving shannon: "i will do anything my master wants, and she wants to commit the crime of mass murder... so i will help her out and even do some of the killing myself"

now I understand why genji would because he is defined as believing himself to be sub-human and just a tool, but my understanding is basically that kumasawa is a full knowing accomplice as well in every game, and i just find it sort of hard to believe that kumasawa, who genuinely is a sweet kind lady, is okay with mass murder?

i mean, granted, a big theme of umineko is "people will do anything for money", and i guess her son got a lot of money because she helped. (or rather, agreed to help but then didn't do anything and died, if ep7 tea party is true)

Dels posted...

The only way anyone could pick Trick is if they were still choosing to deliberately be obtuse and ignore the game's theme.

Or they're the type that wants to see the probably 'bad' ending first and save the obvious 'true' ending for last <_<

I picked Trick first, because magic doesnt exist. Nice try Umineko, but you couldnt fool me.
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Reg posted...

Dels posted...

The only way anyone could pick Trick is if they were still choosing to deliberately be obtuse and ignore the game's theme.

Or they're the type that wants to see the probably 'bad' ending first and save the obvious 'true' ending for last <_<

Right, of course. In that case though they've still made the choice that Magic is the one they want, essentially.

One thing that's always hard to wrap my head around is how much of Umineko's story can be taken at face value, since we learn so much of it is just plans and speculations that never were carried out. Would Yasu ever even have killed anyone? Battler says they aren't guilty of murder in the magic ending, since they weren't in reality. How much of Yasu's plan could have really gone through?
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Right.

Apparently, episode 1 Kanon in the boiler room is meant to represent the fact that Kanon nearly rebelled against the plan and wanted to end it and turn himself in?

That's one interpretation I've seen posted at least

I think Kumasawa (and perhaps Nanjo and the parents) just didn't really believe or expect that the murders were real. And by the time they learned it was real it was too late to tell the truth since they would basically admit their culpability? It's one possible scenario.

And how much have you seen of the fighting game? Erika's super is very much worth seeing lol.
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Dels posted...

now I understand why genji would because he is defined as believing himself to be sub-human and just a tool, but my understanding is basically that kumasawa is a full knowing accomplice as well in every game, and i just find it sort of hard to believe that kumasawa, who genuinely is a sweet kind lady, is okay with mass murder?

You skipped "Our Confession" when I posted it, didn't you? In summary, Kumasawa thinks she's being paid bundles of money for an easy prank show.

Dels posted...

Right.

Apparently, episode 1 Kanon in the boiler room is meant to represent the fact that Kanon nearly rebelled against the plan and wanted to end it and turn himself in?

That's one interpretation I've seen posted at least

Kanon very much represents, among other things, "screw the plan" as an identity. Also externalizing a bunch of Yasu's suppressed "screw these people", aka "Gohda? I hate that guy". There's a reason Kanon is pretty much angry all the time.

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Interesting note: multiple personalities for different situations came up in episode 1.
It's also very interesting looking at episode 1 and 2's Battler (super horny, written by Yasu) vs all the other episodes (significantly less horny, written by Tohya).
Episode 2 when you know everything is a very different episode from not knowing everything, to a point where it kinda defies description.

Battler being horny nearly solved the mystery super early. Shannon didn't stop the attempted boob grab because if he did it he'd learn the truth about her, haha. Changes the tone of a super awkward scene pretty hard.

But yeah, the change in writers is pretty noticeable when you know to look for it. Tohya does love his over the top magic battles.
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you're saying battler's love of boobs in the early episodes is actually a hint towards the solution? hah!

it's true, that stuff really does stop after the first 2 episodes...

and yeah, there's been a ton to read so I hadn't looked at Our Confession yet, it seemed like it was its own thing but I guess not? I'm still not done reading the Rosatrice essay =P

i obtained the fighting game and am just going through training mode looking at all the characters moves, this is already hilarious

ange's special is literally jumping off the roof and landing on her opponent

rosa has a special where she just swings around a giant bar of gold, because why not?