Board 8 > Umineko Playthrough Topic Final Part

(+) Yeah! (+)

i like how there's a character names "black battler" so if you ever looked at the fighting game and its cast and were like "oh shit, i got spoiled! i know battler has an evil version! he's the main bad guy!" you'd be totally 100% wrong

i love how many cats bern has

Another great thing about the fighting game is that since you fight in twos, the story mode also have special paired endings for some characters. I think there's a translation for many of them out there.

And of course things like special dialogue for some match ups, etc.

For me, one of the things I enjoy the most about Umineko is how the characters have memorable, though sometimes exaggerated, quirks. It's really cool for supplemental materials and fan fics and stuff. Actually way back then, I made a topic 'Post things ITT and I'll rank them as Umineko characters'.
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Also a note someone else made during episode 4:

Also, I feel like the George and Jessica vs the demons fight
Was pretty structurally similar to the Kanon vs the Purgatory sisters fight
>Faced with great odds, somehow seem to overcome those odds, only to find out they were screwed from the beginning

*Yasu metaphor sounds*
Let's just say there's a lot that looks very different before/after.

wahahahahaha.

erika's meta special is fantastic

hell, her regular pirate ship goat special would already be amazing, but that's just another level

Cyouni posted...

Also a note someone else made during episode 4:

Also, I feel like the George and Jessica vs the demons fight
Was pretty structurally similar to the Kanon vs the Purgatory sisters fight
>Faced with great odds, somehow seem to overcome those odds, only to find out they were screwed from the beginning

*Yasu metaphor sounds*
Let's just say there's a lot that looks very different before/after.

indeed. that's a theme i actually never caught on to - the idea of not being able to outrun your own fate...

i'm rubbish at fighting games so all i wanted was to see the character's moves, not gonna actually play the story mode

Well, there's YouTube for that if you're ever in the mood for some more sea cats content lol.

Dels posted...

erika's meta special is fantastic

Yessss. Amazing how they got her devilish wickedness.
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i'm sure i'll be continuing to consume seacats content for at least the next few days... letting go of such an experience takes a bit of time

i still don't even understand shannon's motive, and i don't think i've read it anywhere. is it just because battler returned the night she was going to propose to george and so she was in a hard spot...? and therefore murders everyone...?

I'm not very good either but the Princess Mode option makes the inputs much easier and even on Normal Mode I think the difficulty is pretty accessible. In Easy Mode the AI barely even fights back.

Dels posted...

i'm also a little bit confused about genji's motivations and philosophy

i generally accepted that he's the type to do anything his master says, but

he doesn't, in one case.

genji, serving kinzo: "i will do anything my master wants, but i am worried he may commit the crime of rape, so i will hide his child from him"

genji, serving shannon: "i will do anything my master wants, and she wants to commit the crime of mass murder... so i will help her out and even do some of the killing myself"

Genji probably feels a lot of guilt over everything he's done to Yasu and her mother for Kinzo's sake. Enabling what Kinzo did with Beatrice II is already bad enough. Hiding Yasu's survival from Kinzo in reaction to that is REALLY easily justifiable but then taking her in as a servant and hoping the two would eventually reconcile was absolutely not for Yasu's benefit. Genji basically manipulated the course of her life, leading to her generally being isolated and miserable, all for the sake of making Kinzo feel better about the horrible thing he did. The part where him, Kumasawa, and Nanjo parade Yasu in her mother's dress in front of Kinzo so that she can give him "forgiveness" is pretty messed up. They knew she wouldn't have been so accommodating if she had been informed of the circumstances beforehand and instead ended up robbing her of any chance to call Kinzo out over it.

None of this was necessary just because of Genji's duties as a servant. Maybe his loyalty towards Kinzo is just out of the friendship from their youth, gratitude for saving his life, and perhaps some awe towards everything he accomplished. There might be more to it, though. Ronove in general could be a hint; like, the furniture Yasu thinks up can be pretty goofy so maybe she's just being Yasu, but it might not be a coincidence that the one based on Genji is pretty fabulous and willing to hit on Battler, who is noted to resemble younger Kinzo. Think there's a decent chance Yasu at least figured Genji might have been gay and/or in love with Kinzo.

The cherry on top is Yasu's "anatomical issues" as you put it, which also strongly ties into her motive. This is likely never going to be 100% confirmed by the author but I'm pretty convinced she was actually born male and her genitals were mutilated by the cliff incident. It was not uncommon during the time Umineko takes place to raise boys with extensive genital damage as female, on the idea that gender identity was a learned phenomenon, but that's no longer held to be strictly the case. (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer; things didn't turn out well for him either) Hence part of why she feels the desire to start acting as Kanon rather than him just being an imaginary friend but at that point she still doesn't know what's really going on with her body. That "red guts" scene in the Chapter 7 Tea Party with her in Kinzo's room where she wails calling herself furniture is her being told the truth. The idea to have her raised as female at the Fukuin House was probably Nanjo's but of course Genji would have had to agree to it. Another poor Genji decision!

The Chapter 2 ending credits noted that all Genji wanted at the end was a peaceful sleep. By that point Kinzo is dead, Genji is old, and he's done terrible things to Yasu. Things might not have gone well for Yasu regardless given the damage she suffered but he basically ruined her life for Kinzo's sake - and therefore Genji's. And she didn't even give a damn about the money. From that angle, Genji has sort of ended up in Kinzo's position - he used a vulnerable girl for his own desires, realizes he's done a terrible thing, and mainly wants to atone before dying.
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I'm not sure if this counts as seacats content, but I read And Then There Were None this afternoon.

I wanted to see exactly what had inspired Umineko, plus learn a bit more about the mystery genre since, as we've learned, I don't actually know anything about it.

Here's the thing:

I clearly went into this game with wrong expectations. Yes, I knew that mystery novels were a genre, but also, this is a Japanese Visual Novel, so I thought my experience with Phoenix Wright, Danganronpa, and Zero Escape would prepare me.

But Umineko is much, much more in line with a mystery novel - The crimes add up with no solution, nothing gets solved until the very end. And when it does get solved, it is through exposition, not through any sort of climactic battle.

I had an expectation that at some point, the characters would debate the crimes until they came to an answer. Basically like the episode 5 trial, except, you know, actually keep going instead of stopping right as you get somewhere. Like the episode 4 tea party except, you know, actually making some leeway instead of just arguing, getting nowhere, and stopping.

I come from a background of games where the truth, and the twists, are revealed in really exciting ways, where you see the characters working it out for themselves. When the theatregoing topic says: "Why is he just giving up and not trying to solve it?" - Well, I didn't realize I was supposed to solve it. I assumed a time would come when the characters would solve it and walk through everything and go through all the possibilities, and I don't want to solve it before then, because I want to get swept up in that and receive the appropriate level of shock when the truth comes out. I didn't realize that the truth comes out in a slow expository monologue, because I was meant to just solve it on my own time between chapters with notes I had taken, you know?

That's why I was incredibly disappointed when the truth of Shannon = Kanon was confirmed, not in any sort of dramatic sequence, but just in a random scene in the chapel with Will saying "can you go get Kanon?" "lolno", confirming what I had already suspected from just going over it between chapters. That's why episode 7's format is weak to me - but as someone said, apparently it is just tradition in this genre.

And when I say "Oh, there's so much going on, it's impossible!", that's not me literally saying the crime can't be solved - I'm aware there are ways to piece things togther (if you were taking notes, which I was not), it's just the exact reaction the player is supposed to have. It was an "This is impossible! That's crazy! Can't wait to find out!", not a frustration or a giving up, you know?

That said, even Agatha Christie explained how the crimes were done...

And remember, I don't like solving puzzles. The most I did was, during episode 3, because you guys asked, tried to go through all the details and figure it out, and that was work, which I didn't really want to put in. And even then, without proper notetaking, it wasn't possible, because I assumed Shannon's body was confirmed, so I'd have had to remember that her death was never confirmed in red (I guess none of them were) and that even though the narration said she was dead with half her face visible to confirm it was her, that I still couldn't trust that. (Nevermind that you'd also have to just assume Eva and Hideyoshi are accomplices because why not)

Beyond that, knowing how things actually work and that large parts of the mechanics rely on the red text counting personalities as people, I'm perfectly happy that I didn't try to solve through figuring out the howdunnit. I came up with a top suspect based entirely on thematic analysis and I was quite happy with that, especially because I think the game's themes are stronger than its mystery.

We knew what your expectation was, but we also didn't want to spoil you lol.

With the Ep 3 red web, it was sorta a thing people did in readthrough topics of the past to see if the reader could come up with Kinzo being dead before it got suggested in Ep 4, or to come up with the idea that someone died after killing Nanjo but before the debate with Evatrice occurs.

I'm close to a difficult spot with Arria right now, since I want to discuss everything once she reaches the end of Ep 6 (basically when all the clues about Shkanontrice are available). I've given her more clues about solving Umineko than most people would like, but in her case it's to keep her interested. I didn't think she would want to keep reading if she didn't have any clues at all.
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Cyouni posted...

Raka_Putra posted...

Don't forget 'You are incompetent!'

Also the incredibly objective and factual red truths of:
Hiiihhihihhihihihihihihihihihihi!
Come, Ushiromiya Battler, and kneel.
I'll make you my favorite furniture. I'll love you so much and make you my toy until you turn to ashes...
*cackle*cackle*cackle* hihihihihihihihihihihyahyahyahhahhahahahahhahahahhahhahhahhahhahhahha!!!

Out of all the red truths in the game, "you are incompetent" is the only one I had an issue with. I feel it was bad form on Ryukishi's part to allow opinion in red, no matter how true they seem at the time. Laughter and saying things like "I'll make you my favorite furniture" are fine, imo, since it's not necessarily "false" but an opinion shouldn't ever be in red truth.
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Dels posted...

i still don't even understand shannon's motive, and i don't think i've read it anywhere. is it just because battler returned the night she was going to propose to george and so she was in a hard spot...? and therefore murders everyone...?

Based on the manga version of Confession, it's a three part motive. First, self-destruction, for Yasu to bury the truth of their existence for good. Second, destruction of the Ushiromiya family for the monstrous acts that created Yasu. Third, to create the opportunity for someone (Battler) to understand and stop them.

Without Battler's return, the bomb probably still happens, but Yasu's obsession with creating a mystery to be solved is a desire to appeal to him. Without him, there would be no mysterious incident and no forgeries, just a tragic murder-suicide.
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While it is apparent that Umineko takes a lot of notes from And Then There Were None, ATTWN itself was considered groundbreaking for its time. You are not incorrect in assuming that many mystery stories have a scene in which the detective gathers everyone and solves the mystery (though usually with less intense rebuttal from the accused than DR/AA).
In case you are still looking for reading material with such approach, there's Kindaichi manga series or something like Mystery of Orient Express (also by Christie).
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Eerieka posted...

We knew what your expectation was, but we also didn't want to spoil you lol.

yeah that's my own fault.

With the Ep 3 red web, it was sorta a thing people did in readthrough topics of the past to see if the reader could come up with Kinzo being dead before it got suggested in Ep 4, or to come up with the idea that someone died after killing Nanjo but before the debate with Evatrice occurs.

i mean, i did try to solve that and the answer i came up with was someone didn't die when they seemed like they did, then killed nanjo, then died.

that's sort of correct but the real answer is just "personalities can be declared dead in red even if the human being didn't die" so whatever

I'm close to a difficult spot with Arria right now, since I want to discuss everything once she reaches the end of Ep 6 (basically when all the clues about Shkanontrice are available). I've given her more clues about solving Umineko than most people would like, but in her case it's to keep her interested. I didn't think she would want to keep reading if she didn't have any clues at all.

i mean, i dunno. all you needed to say to me was "name the 16 people" and that was basically enough to instantly solve it, there was only one option. i'm not sure if i would've thought of it that way on my own. it helps that shannon was already my top suspect, maybe, but i don't think that really mattered.

i interpreted those opinions in red as just being for artistic effect, it was a really funny way to show the uh severity of her opinions. but yes, the red is pretty sacred, so.

Keeping this alive, not really done having thoughts on the game, just been busy

I lied. I think I'm done having thoughts about this game. They slipped away remarkably quickly in the aftermath of finishing. Saving just in case though.

Awww okay. Thanks for the topic and powering through it. It's been fun. Let us lay the gameboard to rest.
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Saving until topic is archived.

Dels posted...

Saving until topic is archived.

I archived it last week, you're good
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