Board 8 > Yu Yu Hakusho Mafia End of Game Discussion Topic

(+) Yeah! (+)

Tom Bombadil posted...

feel free next time to replace in if you're going to be upset with hosts taking a player who didn't want to play because nobody else stepped up!

Fair enough, hosting is a challenge and it's somewhat unfair of me to badger you, though I think my feedback has some value. I do think I'd echo the "smaller games" sentiments I've read as of late. But I don't play or host. I generally just try to make positive comments in postgame topics because I feel like they are always negative but now I'm just being negative. so blah on me.

I don't sign up because I can't commit to games.
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Well this thing fell apart didn't it

I think the biggest takeaway besides the obvious "stop freaking out so hard because someone disagrees with you in mafia" is that Chris loses the ability to use his "Come on, you really think I'd get caught so easily if I were scum?" defense that he loves so much for a while. Sorry Chris, you'll get it back next time you pull off a scum masterpiece but until then you'll have to accept that people do know that you can indeed do some downright wacky shit as scum :)

More seriously, relentless pushes for early hammers are not good. Beyond just being disruptive and often hurting town via lack of information, I think they really contribute to the hostility issue as well because they create situations where people can get attacked for not having done enough in game when those people know the early hammers killed their attempts to do stuff on those days. It's frustrating to deal with a situation where you just can't get anything going because people keep ending the day early and then you end up with people suspecting you because you never got around to doing stuff that they prevented you from doing.

Between the constant push to end days early and the deliberate trolling from some people (some of which was strategic granted, like Chris may have thrown his life away but he did an incredible job of trolling town into a frenzy with his "iT's FuN be FUn HAMMERTIMELOL" routine), it's not exactly a surprise this game ended up the way it did.

The early hammers also made this the absolute worst game to be experimenting with a new rule on posting after the end of day.
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In fairness, people will often suspect me day one when I am town being very earnest. Can't always look at just the scum instances for when people suspect me.

My evil plan of FUN worked better than even I hoped.
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Meow1000 posted...

But basically this town lost Ulti/Han/Blade day 1 by being a bunch of idiots.

The hammer doesn't happen without you dude. So you only have yourself to blame
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Lopen acting like he was blameless is hilarious when he basically handed us the mislynch two days in a row
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DrPez posted...

Lopen posted...

All this talk about adapting and how you adapt your reads why not adapt your bad play as well as your reads

If town think you are protection fishing two games in a row maybe that's actually anti-town behavior and not like good play. Like if you're playing like scum I'm not giving you a pass because "oh well that Corrik is being cute again" because you can do that as scum too.

I wouldn't have wanted a mass claim. But it's not the worst play. With only one mislynch left it removes a mislynch target or it does nothing. I'd prefer to not force the protection out. I don't understand fire's reasoning that player reads don't really matter. But Corrik knew something didn't add up and it was affecting his reads. He thought another piece of information could clear the picture enough to merit outing protection. Again, not the direction I'd prefer to go. But not inherently anti-town.

Again not saying his suggestion to mass claim was anti-town

His complete railroad of town discussion into we must mass claim was. Multiple people he had town reads on said it was dumb, some outright refused. At that point you just cut your losses and move on, try to determine scum some other way. I was not 100% on Corrik-- I was also putting forth arguments for Hb and a lesser extent FD as well that day. He laterals over to one of them and I'm maybe playing ball.

And again it's telling that it wouldn't have helped him at all, meaning maybe he shpuld reevaluate his play. Made him flip a scumread he correctly had and I'm certain he pushes hard for MZero or Scare with everyone claiming, who are also town.
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Hbthebattle posted...

Lopen acting like he was blameless is hilarious when he basically handed us the mislynch two days in a row

If you're going to say anyone at all handed you the Ben lynch but Ben that's just you being mad that I catch you as scum every game. I was pushing for the Lea lynch that day.

Corrik, sure, yeah, but he helped by playing anti-town that's all I'm saying. If he cooperates a bit more and doesn't railroad town into mass claim for the sake of it and be completely non-cooperative about it there are other lynches Im maybe considering.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

In fairness, people will often suspect me day one when I am town being very earnest. Can't always look at just the scum instances for when people suspect me.

My evil plan of FUN worked better than even I hoped.

Yeah I'm just messing with you
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Also I will say it's easy to say I caused the Corrik mislynch when no one else actually argued for a lynch. If I'm not there, who knows where the lynch goes. Probably Lea ironically on strength of scum bussing but yeah

Corrik was MASS CLAIM no scumhunting at all
Fire Bolt was Corrik flunkie who didn't care to read the game
Scare didn't do anything
IGCD was advocating for a Corrik or Hb lynch but didn't really drive it
MZero said lynch FD but never really argued for it

Like yeah it's easy to pin mislynches on me but if other people actually argued for lynches I do listen. When you're the only player pushing lynches every mislynch is on you. Every correct lynch isn't on you though cause everyone wants credit for those, of course.
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Hey scum thought you were doing great, Lopen. Until you thought you were wrong and then went conspiracy on everyone but before then spot on!
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Lopen posted...

Fire Bolt was Corrik flunkie who didn't care to read the game

This is hilarious because even "refusing to read" I had more correct reads than everyone else in the game up to the Corrik lynch. I'd been talking about an obvscum Lea lynch all day. I wasn't being Corrik's flunkie, I was making the correct game play decision and I can't help it if you don't understand enough about how to play mafia to see that.
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Conspiracy mode was probably net neutral to read quality imo. I don't start suspecting Hb without it and it made me trust IGCD and Scare more.

Caused a mislynch of Corrik but yeah what can you do. If Corrik plays that day differently I'm not certain we lynch him.
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fire_bolt posted...

I'd been talking about an obvscum Lea lynch all day

Lol no you weren't
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Lopen, if you just got better at the game people calling you out for the stupid shit you do would offend you less. Seriously, are you completely unwilling to understand that you made a mistake? Is your ego that inflated? Your attitude literally cost town the game.
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I made a mistake by misreading Corrik as scum

That is not a gameplay mistake. There isn't a way to play that better beyond read better. Corrik did nothing to assuage the suspicion and even began calling me scum based off the dumbest thing and townclearing scum off the dumbest things

If you play bad and make something that seems to be a scumslip due to how bad it is it's not on the person catching you. Play better.

Like 3 other town members in the game lynched Corrik. I didn't make the argument out of nothing.
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Looks like this was a good one to sit out. Yall be getting too angry yo. Its a game. Sorry to see the game descended into a shit show for you guys but good to see a host taking s stand and saying this isnt acceptable. If you host another game let me know. Though Ill be unavailable for another few weeks with irl stuff

Lopen posted...

Meow1000 posted...

But basically this town lost Ulti/Han/Blade day 1 by being a bunch of idiots.

The hammer doesn't happen without you dude. So you only have yourself to blame

It's like you still don't get my vote was to draw the hammer so I could replace out to begin with
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Meow1000 posted...

It's like you still don't get my vote was to draw the hammer so I could replace out to begin with

So you assume because the first 2 hours of a day 1 are stupid that the entire game is going to be stupid?

Do you read day 1s
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Lopen posted...

Lol no you weren't

Yes, I was. Saying differently just shows how little attention you were paying once you started tunneling. Even when I was voting to push claims I kept coming back to lynching Lea that day. Go read back, since you're so fond of the idea.

While I'm at it, let me show how mass claiming wins that game so everyone can quit bitching about it being the wrong play (spoilers, it was 100% the right play, learn how to read setup meta before ever talking about mafia again).

Every vanilla claims Vanilla and MZero claims Jailkeeper. If scum fake claim power at this point they die. Setup meta only allows for a single strong power role left and MZero as Jailkeeper is far more believable than anything scum could put forth. Worst case MZero gets counter claimed, flips JK, and we steamroll scum from there.

Assume scum does the smart thing and claims vanilla as well. At that point I have clear town reads on:

Me
Corrik
Lopen
Scare
MZero
FD

A clear scum read on Lea (who we lynch that days as the common denominator scum read)

And no clear read on HB and IGCD. Someone would eventually sway me on the FD as scum thing because I listen to other players. That leaves us with HB and IGCD as our only debatable scum options. We go from mislynch Corrik because town insists on reading players instead of the game to probably STEAMROLLING scum by working together. Instead we got so toxic the mods halted the game entirely.

Moral of the story: Try fucking working together with better players rather than trying to make big dick plays because you feel self important.
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Btw I would wager Chris knew I had already made the decision to get out of here before it got even uglier even if he didn't say anything about it.
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Meow1000 posted...

Btw I would wager Chris knew I had already made the decision to get out of here before it got even uglier even if he didn't say anything about it.

I do admit I enjoyed breaking you.

Scum Chris is sometimes not the nicest soul.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Meow1000 posted...

Btw I would wager Chris knew I had already made the decision to get out of here before it got even uglier even if he didn't say anything about it.

I do admit I enjoyed breaking you.

Scum Chris is sometimes not the nicest soul.

If I could've gotten one person on the town to give a **** about doing anything other than sheeping you I would've stayed.

It just became so obvious the town didn't come to actually play Mafia that I decided to get out of Dodge instead of waiting my mental energy trying to carry it.

I had a virtually dead certain scum read on Lea but I didn't expect to get anyone to actually give a crap. This was like Hearthstone where being the only not-sheep only served to get people to Lynch me. I knew to get out of this wreck after that one tbqh.
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Leanansidhe posted...

What was your scum read on me?

Your presence this day 1 was astronomically different from your presence day 1 last game, especially the way you projected your vote. The very first thing I did after replacing out was ask if you were scum and tell Pez I scum read you very hard.

Your last post of day 1 is also something scum Lea is way more likely to post than town Lea, btw.
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But basically I thought you were scum regardless of Ulti's flip. Everything about you felt completely off compared to last game and.
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fire_bolt posted...

Moral of the story: Try fucking working together with better players rather than trying to make big dick plays because you feel self important.

Says the guy who refused to work with multiple players and worked with the guy who made the big dick play last game and caused a mislynch by doing so

In terms of post count you argued much harder for mass claim than you did to lynch Lea, that's a fact

You read the room, decide that hey maybe this town isn't going to mass claim easily and work on your read. Maybe we lynch lea instead of you big dicking a mass claim out
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neonreaper posted...

though I think my feedback has some value. I do think I'd echo the "smaller games" sentiments I've read as of late.

sure sure! It's just I feel like it gets kinda silly reducing game size past like 15, and I don't think we have enough players that are *consistently* active and positive to even hit *that* mark, especially since there are like two replaces a game, doubly especially right now on the heels of a super long and post-heavy game AND, uh, this one. We can probably support like 10-player games with solid bases like you're suggesting, but at that point to me it feels like we might as well move to discord or just not bother. Most of the setups I design are like 20+ so I already have to talk myself down if I'm ever going to host because this ain't 2009 :\

For this game we had versions ready for 15, 16, or 17 players. Too lazy to check but I think we got 17 signups and a couple maybes/replaces and went with the 17? I guess we could've gone 15 and not been so desperate for replacements, but I'm not sure how much of a difference that would've made, and cutting people isn't fun. Or Suprak could've responded five minutes sooner :P

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Meow1000 posted...

If I could've gotten one person on the town to give a **** about doing anything other than sheeping you I would've stayed.

I was doing stuff!
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Like if you want to talk about who is working with town and who isn't

4 town members opposed mass claim (me, scare, IGCD, mzero)
2 were for mass claim (fire_bolt, corrik)

4 town members were for Corrik's lynch in the end (me, IGCD, mzero, fire_bolt)
1 was neutral (scare)
1 was against (Corrik)

But yes please tell me more about how I am ignoring the town and the guy who helps divert the entire discussion into mass claim when a bunch of the town isn't for it isn't
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Leanansidhe posted...

I don't see it as often in games where I'm town. So maybe I'm to blame for all the negativity!

You're joking but I think you're a very positive influence as town so it makes the game more fun to play

So kinda the reverse of what you're saying
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I would have given up the mass claim if literally only Corrik and I supported it. Instead you personally decided to mislynch and obvious town Corrik and start trolling instead of being a team player. This loss can be laid directly at your feet, Lopen, and you're simply too full of yourself to realize it
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Also Mzero you need to learn to care as vanilla. You were power telling so hard lmao
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It was literally only you two and scum who favored it. And you guys had town reads on most of the people who opposed it so maybe try and figure out the game by the game's terms rather than railroading the game into the terms you want and it works better for you.
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Tom Bombadil posted...

neonreaper posted...

though I think my feedback has some value. I do think I'd echo the "smaller games" sentiments I've read as of late.

sure sure! It's just I feel like it gets kinda silly reducing game size past like 15, and I don't think we have enough players that are *consistently* active and positive to even hit *that* mark, especially since there are like two replaces a game, doubly especially right now on the heels of a super long and post-heavy game AND, uh, this one. We can probably support like 10-player games with solid bases like you're suggesting, but at that point to me it feels like we might as well move to discord or just not bother. Most of the setups I design are like 20+ so I already have to talk myself down if I'm ever going to host because this ain't 2009 :\

For this game we had versions ready for 15, 16, or 17 players. Too lazy to check but I think we got 17 signups and a couple maybes/replaces and went with the 17? I guess we could've gone 15 and not been so desperate for replacements, but I'm not sure how much of a difference that would've made, and cutting people isn't fun. Or Suprak could've responded five minutes sooner :P

I feel like I need to take some blame for pulling out of this because I didn't think I'd have enough time when as things worked out, I definitely would have had time to be decently active and probably also non-raging <_<

I think in the future I'll just sign up and play these damn games rather than not signing up or signing up then cancelling every time I think I might be busy
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MZero11 posted...

Meow1000 posted...

If I could've gotten one person on the town to give a **** about doing anything other than sheeping you I would've stayed.

I was doing stuff!

No one was challenging Chris just doing whatever he wanted but me.

And for that alone I probably would've been the day 2 mislynch, or even day 1 if Ulti survived.

Yeah no been there before.
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I didn't ever support the Corrik Lynch, I hammered because getting his flip would shut y'all the fuck up and maybe shock you into playing better. Even he understood my motives. Jesus, how blind can one player be?
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Or you could have actually spent time arguing for another lynch instead of hammering the guy you thought was obvtown

Novel idea I know
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Anyway, I've said my piece. Talking to Lopen with accomplish nothing. You can't fix stupid
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Actually historically speaking I've probably been lynched more as town due to that kind of policy lynching than I've been lynched due to like, actual arguments.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Also Mzero you need to learn to care as vanilla. You were power telling so hard lmao

I feel like I play power and vanilla opposite of how they should be played lol
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Meow1000 posted...

No one was challenging Chris just doing whatever he wanted but me.

It was the first two hours of day 1. I think it was the most fruitful first two hours of a day 1 I'd ever seen in terms of game useful content.

You let it play out a bit. If Chris continues to just mindlessly zerg for hammers people would have given him flak for it.
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fire_bolt posted...

I didn't ever support the Corrik Lynch, I hammered because getting his flip would shut y'all the fuck up and maybe shock you into playing better. Even he understood my motives. Jesus, how blind can one player be?

You hammered a guy you thought was town solely out of spite. And you're saying the loss can be put solely on the head of someone else. Talk about being blind.

Real talk, you and Lopen both earned this loss by turning the final day into such a pointless pissing contest that the hosts just called it because there were enough modkillable offenses to justifiably end the game anyway.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Also Mzero you need to learn to care as vanilla. You were power telling so hard lmao

This is true. I also want to point out that Mafia had his flavor for two full game days BEFORE discussing what his role might be.

Panthera posted...

Tom Bombadil posted...

neonreaper posted...

though I think my feedback has some value. I do think I'd echo the "smaller games" sentiments I've read as of late.

sure sure! It's just I feel like it gets kinda silly reducing game size past like 15, and I don't think we have enough players that are *consistently* active and positive to even hit *that* mark, especially since there are like two replaces a game, doubly especially right now on the heels of a super long and post-heavy game AND, uh, this one. We can probably support like 10-player games with solid bases like you're suggesting, but at that point to me it feels like we might as well move to discord or just not bother. Most of the setups I design are like 20+ so I already have to talk myself down if I'm ever going to host because this ain't 2009 :\

For this game we had versions ready for 15, 16, or 17 players. Too lazy to check but I think we got 17 signups and a couple maybes/replaces and went with the 17? I guess we could've gone 15 and not been so desperate for replacements, but I'm not sure how much of a difference that would've made, and cutting people isn't fun. Or Suprak could've responded five minutes sooner :P

I feel like I need to take some blame for pulling out of this because I didn't think I'd have enough time when as things worked out, I definitely would have had time to be decently active and probably also non-raging <_<

I think in the future I'll just sign up and play these damn games rather than not signing up or signing up then cancelling every time I think I might be busy

You would've wound up as SK. Sultan replaced you.

Panthera posted...

Real talk, you and Lopen both earned this loss by turning the final day into such a pointless pissing contest that the hosts just called it because there were enough modkillable offenses to justifiably end the game anyway.

I'll accept this if you give Corrik his share too.
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Lopen posted...

Meow1000 posted...

No one was challenging Chris just doing whatever he wanted but me.

It was the first two hours of day 1. I think it was the most fruitful first two hours of a day 1 I'd ever seen in terms of game useful content.

You let it play out a bit. If Chris continues to just mindlessly zerg for hammers people would have given him flak for it.

You severely overestimate this community, especially after Hb basically handed himself to Chris's Pike last game.
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