Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 255: A Holiday Present From Tulsi

(+) Yeah! (+)

How considerate of her, and shes not even celebrating this time of year
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Policy is how we are going to take back our country tbh. Enough of the pessimism.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Policy is how we are going to take back our country tbh. Enough of the pessimism.

I dont believe you, but I admire your optimism
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I am determined to leave a better country for my son.

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You might have to leave FOR a better country for your son
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I don't believe that. We need to be more involved, not less. They rely on our cynicism.

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My pessimism has me increasingly coming to peace with a Biden nom. =(

i tell myself he's the best choice to drag senate candidates across the finish line in some of the tougher races to try and make myself feel better.

that warren collapse is killing me inside. she was the hero we needed just not the one we deserved.

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xp1337 posted...

My pessimism has me increasingly coming to peace with a Biden nom. =(

He has almost as little charisma as Hillary and his brain is leaking from his ears.

I think his odds are well below than 50% at this point, let alone certain.

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Bernie is looking stronger by the day tbh. There are two types of swing voters. Left right and vote not vote. We need to get the latter

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I think my post makes it clear that Biden is far from my first choice!

My personal preference currently looks like: Warren > Sanders >>> Biden > Buttigieg. I just feel like we're marching to an inevitable conclusion now. We'll see if Sanders can turn it around, but if you had me betting I'd take Biden easily.

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Continuing from the last topic: the "guy I'd like to have a beer with" thing being a voter motivation is not a meme, lol

Side note: If Trump is reelected, I put his odds at running for 3rd term at 40%.

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In fairness we have only had no third terms for 70 years.

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xp1337 posted...

I think my post makes it clear that Biden is far from my first choice!

My personal preference currently looks like: Warren > Sanders >>> Biden > Buttigieg. I just feel like we're marching to an inevitable conclusion now. We'll see if Sanders can turn it around, but if you had me betting I'd take Biden easily.

Support Bernie now! Phone bank. Donate. Make a difference. Be an active participant.

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But also be a smart participant please

My parents get 2-3 calls about Bernie every night trying to get them to sign up to call other people, and they're always like "Well Bernie has two votes in this house but we just don't have the time to be making calls" and so on.

And then the next night the calls are basically "Do you have time now?" to the point that they're getting super put off by it

Bombarding older people with calls is not what you should be doing.

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I agree with that, we should look into how to stop that.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I am determined to leave a better country for my son.

That's great! I'm interested in the specifics as to how you will do that

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To continue from last topic:

Conservative meme?

The person who is more likeable/inspiring has won every election for the past 30 years, what is Conservative about this?

"The guy I'd want to have a beer with" is a meme. It just means "candidate I like" and it's almost always used to justify liking Republican candidates. But it doesn't imply anything about a person's actual characteristics, much less their likeability. It's like the opposite of "coastal liberal elite" which is just code for "guy I don't like".

Bush Jr needed the electoral college and the SCOTUS to make him president because more people voted for the other guy -- what about that implies that he's inspiring or likeable?

I think you're right that when there's an inspiring candidate, they win. Uh, except for Bernie in the primary. But you can't try to apply that to elections without anyone inspiring.

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Kenri posted...

Conservative meme?

The person who is more likeable/inspiring has won every election for the past 30 years, what is Conservative about this?

The last time this wasn't true was probably what... 1968?

And Bernie is the only one who comes close to Trump in terms of genuine likeability, and he's a total crank.

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banananor posted...

That's great! I'm interested in the specifics as to how you will do that

Well, my ideas mean nothing unless they work. So I need to see if they can work. For example it has long been a thought that you need dark money, big donors, to fight against other special interests. It is what Reagan taught the world. However if Bernie can win the primary with nothing but small dollar donations - something Pete said would hamstring someone, and I understand why he thinks that, then the idea is fractures. If Bernie can win the presidency with that model the idea shatters. It starts there. Democrats and Republicans alike at the end of the day care about winning more than anything, and... yeah sure we'll go with that being correct. You have to win before you can have the power to do anything, so in that view that makes sense. The window has shifted so much on "how can you win?" though it isn't serving people as well as it ought to.

You don't need an amendment to get money out of politics, in reality. You need to prove to the people investing it is a waste of money and they will stop investing. Having the votes on any one issue doesn't matter, it is about building a movement and getting people reinvested into our political process. If Bernie is elected and a democrat doesn't want to vote for his agenda, primary that democrat. If that democrat is voted out in the primary, other democrats are like "oh... so this is how it is."

The world does not dictate what we can do, we dictate what the world does. There are a lot more working class people than there are millionaires and billionaires, but we have been nursed on this feeling of hopelessness and that the system will never change. The cracks are showing though. The democratic party is moving more towards the left again, and yes there is resistance but people who would never have had a chance to be in congress even a decade ago are winning here and there. It is slow. It takes time. But the cracks are showing. Even Trump's presidency is a positive sign. Go back to a lot of his campaign promises. They were speaking to the suffering of people who were desperate for hope. We just need people who are not bad faith actors of that hope.

Bernie Sanders is proof of concept. If he can become President, the typical way of doing things in America is dead on the spot. He is inspiring an entire generation of people to care. Hope is a disease and it can spread quickly. That is the most important thing about a Sanders presidency. It is a transformation of American politics.

The specifics are going to take time. And on many issues I am maybe more open to compromise than many in this topic might suspect. What I am not willing to do is compromise before the negotiation even begins.

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Ehh no it would absolutely take an amendment to get money out of politics. Bernie might be getting money differently but he is still getting money. In its current form politics on that level still takes an exorbitant amount of money, and even in the rare event Bernie wins, likely it will just result in more money being thrown into politics without a change in the rules(Billionaires are still capable of outspending small donors).

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

You don't need an amendment to get money out of politics, in reality.

No, you absolutely do. Even if Sanders (or Warren or anyone else) can debunk it on a presidential level, there are just too many races nationwide and many local races can be massively influenced by money.

You need to overturn Citizens United and get public financing for elections to fix it.

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Yang's Democracy Dollars would do the trick!

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By the time you can overturn Citizens United money in politics would already be neutered in the way we understand it. It's just fact. The Supreme Court is not going to turn it in the next 8 years regardless of Preisdent in all likelyhood. An amendment is even less so. That is the type of thing that comes in the middle of a movement, not in the beginning.

And so far Bernie has by far raised the most money out of anyone in the Democratic field. AOC I believe leads all of congress in donations. It is a math game to the billionaires. Bloomberg is blowing 100s of millions of money for... whatever he thinks he is getting.


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Forceful_Dragon posted...

Yang's Democracy Dollars would do the trick!

How can you still support Yang after that horrific health care policy? <_<

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Kenri posted...

"The guy I'd want to have a beer with" is a meme. It just means "candidate I like" and it's almost always used to justify liking Republican candidates. But it doesn't imply anything about a person's actual characteristics, much less their likeability. It's like the opposite of "coastal liberal elite" which is just code for "guy I don't like".

I dunno, I think candidate I like applied to both Obama and Clinton in their time!

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Inspiration/Charisma matters more on the democratic side. "democrats fall in love, republicans fall in line etc etc." Like, it's a definite boon to have but Republicans will just convince themselves their candidates are charismatic regardless of the truth (we are really supposed to believe trump is charismatic lmfao get out of here) whereas Democrats tend to espouse needing to be inspired to vote/support someone more often. (Hillary, Kerry, etc.)

And back to money in politics. Again, you're only talking about the presidential level. There are 435 congressional races every 2 years. Senate races, Governor races, and thousands of state and local level races. Money talks especially loud there and can have repercussions on the national level (laws/policy affecting the lives of people there, gerrymandering, voter suppression, etc.)

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

And so far Bernie has by far raised the most money out of anyone in the Democratic field. AOC I believe leads all of congress in donations. It is a math game to the billionaires. Bloomberg is blowing 100s of millions of money for... whatever he thinks he is getting.

The money has more than gotten Bloomberg in the door.

He has no chance in hell luckily but the money has gotten him more support than other candidates that are better and have put in way more personal effort.

(In conclusion, fuck Bloomberg, and I'm tired of seeing his fucking ads every damn hour).

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I just mentioned a Congress seat! Sure we think "well that's AOC" but AOC wasn't even a thing five years ago. Yes getting money out of politics is important perhaps I misphrased. I am not saying never do it, it just isn't the first step. Electing people who will push for it is. Not saying never overturn CU

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

How can you still support Yang after that horrific health care policy? <_<

Because by establishing an income "floor" he will still be doing a lot of good and people's ability to take care of themselves will significantly increase.

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People with less than 29,000 in income pay nothing for health care under Bernie's proposal.

You don't think that is far more valuable than 1000 a month?

Mind you I like UBI in theory, not trying to attack it buy that health care policy is mega yikes, and I like Yang in general.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

You don't think that is far more valuable than 1000 a month?

ummm it is literally not unless Yang's plan is somehow overturn obamacare

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KamikazePotato posted...

Continuing from the last topic: the "guy I'd like to have a beer with" thing being a voter motivation is not a meme, lol

Side note: If Trump is reelected, I put his odds at running for 3rd term at 40%.

Including him just attempting to and being told no, thats unconstitutional you piece of shit, or actually succeeding in just ignoring the 22nd Amendment?

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Whose going to enforce the 22nd Amendment? The Supreme Court? With what army?

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Whose going to enforce the 22nd Amendment? The Supreme Court? With what army?

the avengers

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Where do I vote for The Avengers

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xp1337 was it you or pyresword who wanted polling that showed people support bernie's policies more than Biden's when we discussed it the other week. Because I think I saw like 4 different polls indicating that.

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StealThisSheen posted...

Where do I vote for The Avengers

I would vote Captain America every time.

President: Cap
Vice President: Thor
Secretary of State: Black Panther
Secretary of Defense: Ironman

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When Captain America nominates people with no qualifications to positions we just get Hawkeye which is much less damaging than what we currently get

Captain America '20

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Hawkeye can't hurt anything, not even our economic standing in the world!

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

xp1337 was it you or pyresword who wanted polling that showed people support bernie's policies more than Biden's when we discussed it the other week. Because I think I saw like 4 different polls indicating that.

Not me, so pyre I guess.

FTR, it would depend on the policy if you were talking with me. For example, AFAIK public option polls better than M4A. But I don't recall getting into such a discussion in quite some time.

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Do you agree that going to the table wanting a public option is unlikely to result in a public option?

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Do you agree that going to the table wanting a public option is unlikely to result in a public option?

My position is that if you can get a Democratic Senate you can get the public option regardless of your starting point. It is probably more likely you get it if you start from M4A and get argued down to public option and likely dodge the risk of somehow forgetting 2009 and watering down the public option if you start with it. You'd think that mistake wouldn't be made again but never say never with Senate Democrats. Specifically, I think you can't get Manchin and maybe a few others on M4A at which point the Senate math falls apart but if you start there you might be able to give them an easier path to the public option by making it look like they compromised it down to their voters.

I support M4A I'm just looking at it impartially.

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I think you first need to convince the people that there's a major problem with the current system (hasn't been done yet) and then that it's a problem so big that everyone's plan needs to change to solve it (a virtually impossible case to make).

I'm happy to watch everyone try though

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xp1337 posted...

My position is that if you can get a Democratic Senate you can get the public option regardless of your starting point. It is probably more likely you get it if you start from M4A and get argued down to public option and likely dodge the risk of somehow forgetting 2009 and watering down the public option if you start with it. You'd think that mistake wouldn't be made again but never say never with Senate Democrats. Specifically, I think you can't get Manchin and maybe a few others on M4A at which point the Senate math falls apart but if you start there you might be able to give them an easier path to the public option by making it look like they compromised it down to their voters.

I support M4A I'm just looking at it impartially.

I am for M4A as well, but what you said to me is 100% right. Which is why we need Sanders as president out of the current field. He's the only one who leaves room for acceptable compromise!

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Nelson_Mandela posted...

I think you first need to convince the people that there's a major problem with the current system (hasn't been done yet) and then that it's a problem so big that everyone's plan needs to change to solve it (a virtually impossible case to make).

I'm happy to watch everyone try though

Get back to me in 10 years!

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yang's proposal may not be the widest of them all but it seems quite plausible. hardest parts seem to be the the RX negotiations and the change to salary but that, compared to M4A, is a walk in the park. it doesn't take much to point out how ridiculous drug costs and treatment can be, especially to anyone who has seen what cancer, diabetes, or HIV can do. especially cancer, which is a personal issue to quite a few people and a legitimate concern to more as they get older. hell, that aspect might actually have bipartisen support as it's been mentioned by republicans before. that aspect carries some major long term effects too since if we have the government getting involved with the production of drugs it means government is now getting directly involved with everyday medicine. changing doctors to salary would change that industry to a point where the idea of a government provided insurance is a quick hop from it - it's just another doctor making another salary using drugs you already are getting by the government. the groundwork gets made really well for M4A-like ideas without massively disrupting tens of millions of jobs.

the approach is entirely different than covering everyone or a public option, it's quite conservative in its framework to tackling what's already there as opposed to making anything new. but that's also what makes it really difficult to argue against in a general election.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I would vote Captain America every time.

President: Cap
Vice President: Thor
Secretary of State: Black Panther
Secretary of Defense: Ironman

Cap punches Nazis instead of hearing both sides though
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Wanglicious posted...

it doesn't take much to point out how ridiculous drug costs and treatment can be, especially to anyone who has seen what cancer, diabetes, or HIV can do. especially cancer, which is a personal issue to quite a few people and a legitimate concern to more as they get older.

And yet

https://news.gallup.com/poll/269711/republican-satisfaction-healthcare-costs-surges.aspx
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Jakyl25 posted...

Cap punches Nazis instead of hearing both sides though

Can I vote for him twice

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Jakyl25 posted...

And yet

https://news.gallup.com/poll/269711/republican-satisfaction-healthcare-costs-surges.aspx

while there's still partisanship...

• Overall, 26% of Americans are satisfied with U.S. healthcare costs

it's ripe for tweaking.

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