Poll of the Day > What do you think it would take to make the USadopt the Metric System?

(+) Yeah! (+)

It is outright silly we don't use it.

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CarefreeDude posted...

It is outright silly. we don't use it.

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Education reform

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Mead posted...

Education reform

Who are you, Bill Clinton?

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A lot of money.

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At least we wouldn't need 2 sets of tools anymore.
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You always need two sets of tools. Because thieves always steal them.
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CarefreeDude posted...

It is outright silly we don't use it.

For some things Standard is still better. Metric is mostly useful for science (where we already mostly use it).

The only real advantage of Metric is unit conversion, but for most applications it's perfectly easy to do if you were raised using inches/feet/etc. The people who have the most problems with it are people who are already using Metric, and fuck those people.
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Metric at gun point at this time.

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ParanoidObsessive posted...

The only real advantage of Metric is unit conversion, but for most applications it's perfectly easy to do if you were raised using inches/feet/etc.

No matter how much practice you get, dividing 1 lb 6 oz in half is always going to be slower than dividing 3 kg in half due to the extra unit conversion step required. That difference may not be overly significant, and it'll disappear when you're working with single-unit imperial measurements, but for anyone who does have to do math on measurements that aren't always so tidy, metric is pretty unquestionably superior.

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Nothing.
There's zero point.

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adjl posted...

That difference may not be overly significant, and it'll disappear when you're working with single-unit imperial measurements, but for anyone who does have to do math on measurements that aren't always so tidy, metric is pretty unquestionably superior.

But again, in the span of the average person's life, they're not juggling so many conversions that the slight extra edge in speed is going to mean anything.

Which is why I pointed out that, in the context of science, where you may be doing multiple conversions often and where precision is important, then Metric is definitely better. But if the only conversion I do this week is trying to figure out the comparative prices of a 2 liter bottle of soda to a six-pack of 12oz cans, it really doesn't matter which system I'm using.

Basically, the overall benefits gained in the long-run are minor enough that it doesn't necessarily justify the short-term disruption and frustration the change-over would change if it was done all in one go.

And I still say for certain applications, Standard is better than Metric. For example, Fahrenheit is more precise and useful for the range of temperatures humans find comfortable than Celsius is (whereas Celsius is more useful for scientific applications).
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Wall of words...

I agree...
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drug dealers measure in kilo's.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

For example, Fahrenheit is more precise and useful for the range of temperatures humans find comfortable than Celsius is

The existence of decimals in both systems renders any comparison of precision moot, to say nothing of the fact that such a level of precision is completely irrelevant to the topic of human comfort. Absolutely nobody is so sensitive to ambient temperature that they need to make a distinction between one degree fahrenheit and half a degree celsius, and very few people are genuinely so sensitive as to even be able to notice temperature changes finer than 1C (as much as a bunch of drama queens will insist otherwise). I see the "0-100F intuitively covers a reasonable range of air temperatures" point made a lot, but that's completely meaningless.

I'll concede only two advantages to Fahrenheit:
-0F is the approximate point at which salt stops working on ice, which is more intuitive and easy to remember than -18C (though -20C is a reasonable approximation that's easier)
-For candy making, the various stages through which sugar passes as you boil it are generally 5-10F apart, and multiples of 5/10 are easier to remember than the Celsius equivalents

One of those is pretty minor, the other is extremely niche and mostly obviated by the fact that many candy thermometers have the stages marked right on them.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

But again, in the span of the average person's life, they're not juggling so many conversions that the slight extra edge in speed is going to mean anything.

Which is why I pointed out that, in the context of science, where you may be doing multiple conversions often and where precision is important, then Metric is definitely better. But if the only conversion I do this week is trying to figure out the comparative prices of a 2 liter bottle of soda to a six-pack of 12oz cans, it really doesn't matter which system I'm using.

It applies to more than just science. The entire food service industry (including the supply end of things), construction (and most related trades), fashion... plenty of industries need to convert between different scales of units on a regular basis, and introducing an extra step into each one of those does cost time and money (to say nothing of the added potential for errors).

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Basically, the overall benefits gained in the long-run are minor enough that it doesn't necessarily justify the short-term disruption and frustration the change-over would change if it was done all in one go.

That's why it's unlikely to ever happen. Metric is objectively better in pretty much every way, just not by enough to be worth the astronomical cost of converting every established industry in the US over to it.

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I mean, metric is pretty shit when being used to measure small ranges (like human height), is definitely inferior when it comes to weather temperatures, and is a little clumsier when it comes to car speeds. Basically, metric isn't a good fit for all things.

adjl posted...

I see the "0-100F intuitively covers a reasonable range of air temperatures" point made a lot, but that's completely meaningless.

That's untrue, though. Anyone working out of a base 10 system (i.e., basically everyone) is almost naturally going to be more comfortable with a 0-100 range, which absolutely applies to weather temperature and automobile speed ranges. It's just easier to conceptualize. Fahrenheit is also for that reason an unquestionably better way to measure weather/air temperature as it relates to day-to-day human concerns. 0 being very cold and 100 quite hot is more precise and easier to relate than -18 to 37.

And I dunno about you, but I can definitely make the distinction between 70, 75, and between. And it's useful to know!

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For me, personally, I just dont care for it. And dont want to learn it. If I ever need it, which is highly unlikely, I can google the conversion. Or in the case of cooking, I usually have measuring cups that have both measurements on it, IIRC. But Id rather not have to take my phone out constantly to do the conversion. Also, Im definitely use to knowing what to wear based on current temperatures. Celsius would fuck me up all the time...

adjl posted...

The existence of decimals in both systems renders any comparison of precision moot

Doesnt bringing in decimals mean that Fahrenheit is even more precise in that case. Though, I do think people would rather use whole numbers, and normally do. Which would mean Fahrenheit would still be better as its still more precise.

adjl posted...

Absolutely nobody is so sensitive to ambient temperature that they need to make a distinction between one degree fahrenheit and half a degree celsius, and very few people are genuinely so sensitive as to even be able to notice temperature changes finer than 1C

While not everybody is that sensitive. I know quite a few people that are. And keep their house at a very specific temperature. And cant do anything if its off even a little. Celsius would probably drive them crazy if they couldnt get it in that exact temp...
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The U.S. ceasing to be a world power.
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When the empire takes control, and then the US will be made to use British horsepower rather than PS or Kw and will keep miles.
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If the metric system had breasts.

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Krazy_Kirby posted...

drug dealers measure in kilo's.

And pounds and ounces and grams etc. They kinda use it all.

Ive actually never heard anyone say a kilo of weed. Ive heard ounces grams and pounds. Ive heard kilo of cocaine though.

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If the metric system stopped sucking that would go at least 1.61 towards helping.

the USA would be in shambles cause they would see 30C in summer and think climate change was a part of it

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CyborgSage00x0 posted...

That's untrue, though. Anyone working out of a base 10 system (i.e., basically everyone) is almost naturally going to be more comfortable with a 0-100 range, which absolutely applies to weather temperature and automobile speed ranges. It's just easier to conceptualize.

It's true that 0-100 is more intuitive, but being more intuitive means nothing when it's something you deal with on a daily basis. People spend their entire lives knowing what numbers mean hot and what numbers mean cold. They don't have to rely on the temperature scale being intuitive.

LinkPizza posted...

Doesnt bringing in decimals mean that Fahrenheit is even more precise in that case.

For any given number of decimal places, yes, but the existence of decimals means any unit can be used to express any level of precision you want (provided your measurement device is that precise, of course).

LinkPizza posted...

While not everybody is that sensitive. I know quite a few people that are. And keep their house at a very specific temperature. And cant do anything if its off even a little. Celsius would probably drive them crazy if they couldnt get it in that exact temp...

I'd be willing to wager that most of them would be fine if somebody recalibrated their thermostat to be off by 1F and didn't tell them (i.e. they set it to 70 but it's secretly actually 71). Most of that isn't people genuinely being that sensitive, it's just being overdramatic. Even when it is, though, most metric thermostats increment in half degrees C, which are virtually identical to whole degrees F (9/5 is less than 0.5, but not by an appreciable amount for something as approximate as ambient temperature).

LinkPizza posted...

Or in the case of cooking, I usually have measuring cups that have both measurements on it, IIRC. But Id rather not have to take my phone out constantly to do the conversion.

In a world where metric was standard, your recipes would be given in metric and you wouldn't have to do conversions. That's not really a major concern long-term.

The main differential is fractions vs mantissa. More intuitive and smooth to talk in halves, thirds, quarters, etc.

the major issue with metric is base ten. Which is terrible for common fractional math, as above. A similar system using other bases like twelve, eight, or six, would be vastly more efficient and intuitive.
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mooreandrew58 posted...

And pounds and ounces and grams etc. They kinda use it all.

Ive actually never heard anyone say a kilo of weed. Ive heard ounces grams and pounds. Ive heard kilo of cocaine though.

Because a kilo of weed is a bit much for personal consumption but too small for dealing while a kilo of coke is a good brick to deal.
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Amuseum posted...

the major issue with metric is base ten. Which is terrible for common fractional math, as above.

Not really. There's no reason you can't talk about a quarter of a litre, if that's what you need. The mere existence of smaller unit subdivisions doesn't mean you have to use them in place of a convenient fraction.

total collapse of the stonecutters

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Lol. I get people asking me for a pint of something in the deli. I get people asking for 3 ounces of something. I happen to know exactly how much that is because I can multiply 6.25 in my head, but the majority of people I work with cannot and regularly ask me how much something is. (or they don't and get it wrong). For personal use it's abyssal. If you want a quarter of a pound, you say you want a quarter of a pound. You don't say you want 4 ounces.

Imperial is for neanderthals. Metric literally embeds itself in every mathematical facet of industry. They don't teach metric at elementaries in my area anymore, probably because of Conservatives constantly refusing to change anything (no, actively fighting change) and coming up with excuses as to why the old ways are superior.

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_AdjI_ posted...

In a world where metric was standard, your recipes would be given in metric and you wouldn't have to do conversions. That's not really a major concern long-term.

Well, not my old ones. The written ones, and the saved ones. So, I would still have to do conversions. Which would be a waste of time, when its not really needed...
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adjl posted...

No matter how much practice you get, dividing 1 lb 6 oz in half is always going to be slower than dividing 3 kg in half due to the extra unit conversion step required. That difference may not be overly significant, and it'll disappear when you're working with single-unit imperial measurements, but for anyone who does have to do math on measurements that aren't always so tidy, metric is pretty unquestionably superior.

So what? It is harder to divide in half using base 10 than it is binary. Plus, all of our computers use binary. The world should just switch to that, correct?

What happens when you read a clock? Do you just get upset because it doesn't divide by 10 nice and easy for you? Or months of the year?

More than half of metric is garbage anyway. Throw out the centi- and deci-, no one uses it. Just use kilo, mega, micro, etc

The US will never change because all of our structures/etc are built in standard measurements and metric doesn't have the resolution to convert the measurements over to use-able numbers. Ever try marking off quarter inches in metric? What a nightmare!

America would have to lose a war first. And America doesn't lose wars. Except the war on drugs, because now pot is legal through most of the country.

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Zeus posted...

America would have to lose a war first. And America doesn't lose wars. Except the war on drugs, because now pot is legal through most of the country.

And one of the Dakotas is on Meth...
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Schools tried to switch in the 70's but gave up pretty quickly when the kids basically said fuck this shit.

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Lots and lots of dead bodies. America will never surrender to the socialist Marxist proaganda that is the metric system

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We'd probably have to lose our national debt first, assuming we ever do. If the government ends up with a surplus to play around with instead of a deficit to deal with, we may start seeing things like additions to school curriculums, instead of fighting over what gets cut next. Such an addition could be teaching metric alongside standard.

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LinkPizza posted...

Well, not my old ones. The written ones, and the saved ones. So, I would still have to do conversions. Which would be a waste of time, when its not really needed...

Yes, that'd be a pain. This is more thinking long-term, not looking at the conversion process itself (which, as we've already established, would be way more hassle than it's worth).

kukukupo posted...

So what? It is harder to divide in half using base 10 than it is binary.

Not really. It's still just a single step, not the multi-step problem I identified there (convert pounds to ounces, add to ounce value, then divide, compared to just dividing), and base 10 math is already what most people are used to anyway.

kukukupo posted...

What happens when you read a clock? Do you just get upset because it doesn't divide by 10 nice and easy for you? Or months of the year?

Decimal time would be nice, but because time is based on a non-decimal natural phenomenon and not on defining an arbitrary measurement, it's not nearly as viable. Hours, minutes, and seconds could potentially be changed to decimal, but having 365 days a year is fixed, and that doesn't divide nicely by 10 no matter how you try to slice it.

kukukupo posted...

More than half of metric is garbage anyway. Throw out the centi- and deci-, no one uses it. Just use kilo, mega, micro, etc

Centimetres get used almost as often as metres, and decilitres see fairly regular use in Europe. Regardless, there's really no reason to get rid of them just because they aren't used much. The option exists, in the event that somebody does find a use, but otherwise they don't take up any sort of finite space or anything.

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WWIII

caps

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According to many answers in this topic it looks like many Americans are emotionally attached to the Imperial system which makes it very unlikely they will happily switch in the near future.
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It won't be easy. The main problem is that you have a bunch of people who have grown up with the imperial system and no driving need to convert to the metric system. Suddenly having everything go from miles to meters or from pounds to grams will result in a LOT of disruption no matter what you do. Whoever puts it forwards would basically be committing political suicide as well. So, here's what I think it would take.

1) Bi-partisan support on a universal level. No holdouts or anything. Even one vote against could result in mass outrage. Basically, the common man needs to believe that this is something that is not only going to happen but NEEDS to happen. So having even some old fogy going 'I don't see why we need to ditch the old way' will provide a rallying point. It doesn't really matter WHY they vote against. They could be some lovey-dovey hippy who refused to convert because they see it as somehow discriminatory. That person will be a rallying-point for the anti-metric crowd. Once that rally starts the rest will likely start changing their votes for political power. Unity is ESSENTIAL!

2) Educational reforms. The imperial system will need to be PURGED from schools. No holdouts allowed in the lesson plans. The kids will be exposed to the imperial system in their normal life enough and not the metric.

3) Packaging change enforcement. Make companies drop imperial measurements from their product labeling. You'll likely see a bunch of sizes change as a result; but that's neither here nor there.

4) Roadsign change. This shouldn't be hard and can be done gradually; but it needs to be done.

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Unbridled9 posted...

It won't be easy. The main problem is that you have a bunch of people who have grown up with the imperial system and no driving need to convert to the metric system. Suddenly having everything go from miles to meters or from pounds to grams will result in a LOT of disruption no matter what you do. Whoever puts it forwards would basically be committing political suicide as well. So, here's what I think it would take.

1) Bi-partisan support on a universal level. No holdouts or anything. Even one vote against could result in mass outrage. Basically, the common man needs to believe that this is something that is not only going to happen but NEEDS to happen. So having even some old fogy going 'I don't see why we need to ditch the old way' will provide a rallying point. It doesn't really matter WHY they vote against. They could be some lovey-dovey hippy who refused to convert because they see it as somehow discriminatory. That person will be a rallying-point for the anti-metric crowd. Once that rally starts the rest will likely start changing their votes for political power. Unity is ESSENTIAL!

2) Educational reforms. The imperial system will need to be PURGED from schools. No holdouts allowed in the lesson plans. The kids will be exposed to the imperial system in their normal life enough and not the metric.

3) Packaging change enforcement. Make companies drop imperial measurements from their product labeling. You'll likely see a bunch of sizes change as a result; but that's neither here nor there.

4) Roadsign change. This shouldn't be hard and can be done gradually; but it needs to be done.

Gradually is key imo. Start with things having both metric and imperial but teach metric as the main one in schools as older generations start dying off start scaling back how much imperial measurements are used until it no longer is.

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Unbridled9 posted...

It won't be easy. The main problem is that you have a bunch of people who have grown up with the imperial system and no driving need to convert to the metric system. Suddenly having everything go from miles to meters or from pounds to grams will result in a LOT of disruption no matter what you do. Whoever puts it forwards would basically be committing political suicide as well. So, here's what I think it would take.

1) Bi-partisan support on a universal level. No holdouts or anything. Even one vote against could result in mass outrage. Basically, the common man needs to believe that this is something that is not only going to happen but NEEDS to happen. So having even some old fogy going 'I don't see why we need to ditch the old way' will provide a rallying point. It doesn't really matter WHY they vote against. They could be some lovey-dovey hippy who refused to convert because they see it as somehow discriminatory. That person will be a rallying-point for the anti-metric crowd. Once that rally starts the rest will likely start changing their votes for political power. Unity is ESSENTIAL!

2) Educational reforms. The imperial system will need to be PURGED from schools. No holdouts allowed in the lesson plans. The kids will be exposed to the imperial system in their normal life enough and not the metric.

3) Packaging change enforcement. Make companies drop imperial measurements from their product labeling. You'll likely see a bunch of sizes change as a result; but that's neither here nor there.

4) Roadsign change. This shouldn't be hard and can be done gradually; but it needs to be done.

I don't think any of this will happen, tbqh... I could care less if it changes after I'm dead, though. Personally, I won't ever really use metric much. I have no real reason to, nor would I care to learn. For your points, though:

1. Unity actually happening is slim to none, I would think. People already can't agree. Take something like this, they still won't. I also feel like we'd see them all agree against it before for it, though...

2. This will also be hard, if not impossible. Many schools won't care of abide by it. And when parents find out their kid isn't learning imperial, they'll probably change to the school that does teach it. And you know some schools will. And will opt to teach their kids themselves. And to make sure their kids teach their kids, and so forth and so forth...

3. Companies probably won't unless you make them. But it would be hard to force the companies, or to make an asinine law about it. So, this would be hard.

4. This would literally cause a kinds of problems. Like excessive speeding...
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