Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 292: With Total Power Comes No Responsibility At All

(+) Yeah! (+)

I wouldn't.

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Corrik7 posted...

All previously stated opinions. Why would I be goofing.

you jumped from who needs privacy to might as well throw mandatory military service in there too pretty quickly which is bad and also seems unrelated to this so I thought surely you must just be intentionally absurd right now
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

you jumped from who needs privacy to might as well throw mandatory military service in there too pretty quickly which is bad and also seems unrelated to this so I thought surely you must just be intentionally absurd right now

I think mandatory military service is smart. Could supplement it with peace corps or red Cross service or such.

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I lumped it in because of generally totalitarian ideas that I am okay with in our society.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Backdoors and encryption bans are absurd, but if it's an app you can just uninstall it when this is over.

You've got more faith here than I do. Maybe if the average of Congress was like 30 years younger and I could reliably believe most of them knew what they were talking about on technology.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Backdoors and encryption bans are absurd, but if it's an app you can just uninstall it when this is over.

Yeah thats a negative

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at its most basic system here, tracing involves taking your metadata and adding in your direct person to person contact to steadily track the virus. this information is then centralized to map out who has been in contact with who and, should a person be infected, narrow down how they originally got it by process of elimination.

i believe a system along those lines will be done. you can go a step further - or in China's case many steps further - but i expect something along the lines of South Korea's model. Apple and Google are directly involved so we're definitely looking at phone apps, with potentially a system that tells you if you've been in contact with someone confirmed to having it. you can technically have ll the data be anonymous but let's be real - it's not, everyone knows it's not, we've literally had direct confirmation from people like Snowden that it's really not. it just doesn't have your name attached.

the pattern i expect:
the right will oppose it strongly, the left will accept it and say it's a good thing.
trump will then announce it, say it's a good thing, a wonderful thing, but that he knows people are worried about privacy and make sure they know too.
the left will then sound alarms about it as if they never said it was a good thing; the right will still be generally opposed to it but hate that it's tied to opening up the economy. eventually the right will conclude with it's still for the greater good.

i expect that to be the media and social media pattern, anyway. obviously not everyone in both groups, blah blah, just the general trends of it all.

edit:
and again, i would love to be wrong on this. i do not like tracing or the concept of it. i would really love it to be a uniting position for left and right of "fuck this, no, do something else."

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Corrik7 posted...

Same reason I was okay with the Patriot act. If you are doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about. Who cares if your government spies on you. The safety of the populace is more important than privacy. What does it matter if an eye in the sky of a possibly anonymous person knows what you are doing.

Would you not give your privacy up if it could prevent a 9/11 @red13n ?

So you were okay with those cops that were targeting bars before your laws changed, right?
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Backdoors and encryption bans are absurd, but if it's an app you can just uninstall it when this is over.

that assumes that this is ever over

how can we ever know that the virus is truly gone? it seems like it would be easy to justify extending it permanently once they get their foot in the door.
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Jakyl25 posted...

So you were okay with those cops that were targeting bars before your laws changed, right?

Your question seems to imply something that isn't accurate. When was it okay, exactly?

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Corrik7 posted...

Same reason I was okay with the Patriot act. If you are doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about. Who cares if your government spies on you. The safety of the populace is more important than privacy. What does it matter if an eye in the sky of a possibly anonymous person knows what you are doing.

Would you not give your privacy up if it could prevent a 9/11 @red13n ?

The point is that the government cannot be trusted with that kind of power, not that it would be bad in an idealized world where the government doesn't abuse it. It's a very short step to the government deciding that criticizing it is "wrong" and criminal.

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You act like we need Snowden's word on the fact that anonymous data isn't actually anonymous.

The NYT did a big piece a few months back on how they got ahold of like one year's worth of data from a handful of cities from a whistleblower at a single data company and they stated how comically easy it was for them to attach names to the so-called anonymized data and how they could follow police officers around, identify corporate employee poaching, track high profile individuals making night trips to motels, etc.

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Corrik7 posted...

Your question seems to imply something that isn't accurate. When was it okay, exactly?

Im not saying anythings inaccurate. You never gave your opinions about the PA law against cops targeting bars IIRC. Just checking to see if theyre consistent
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Wanglicious posted...

at its most basic system here, tracing involves taking your metadata and adding in your direct person to person contact to steadily track the virus. this information is then centralized to map out who has been in contact with who and, should a person be infected, narrow down how they originally got it by process of elimination.

i believe a system along those lines will be done. you can go a step further - or in China's case many steps further - but i expect something along the lines of South Korea's model. Apple and Google are directly involved so we're definitely looking at phone apps, with potentially a system that tells you if you've been in contact with someone confirmed to having it. you can technically have ll the data be anonymous but let's be real - it's not, everyone knows it's not, we've literally had direct confirmation from people like Snowden that it's really not. it just doesn't have your name attached.

the pattern i expect:
the right will oppose it strongly, the left will accept it and say it's a good thing.
trump will then announce it, say it's a good thing, a wonderful thing, but that he knows people are worried about privacy and make sure they know too.
the left will then sound alarms about it as if they never said it was a good thing; the right will still be generally opposed to it but hate that it's tied to opening up the economy. eventually the right will conclude with it's still for the greater good.

i expect that to be the media and social media pattern, anyway. obviously not everyone in both groups, blah blah, just the general trends of it all.

edit:
and again, i would love to be wrong on this. i do not like tracing or the concept of it. i would really love it to be a uniting position for left and right of "fuck this, no, do something else."

Strongly opposed to government surveillance and I would think that would be the overwhelming opinion of the left as well. Don't know for sure though, I suppose.

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Wanglicious posted...

. i would love it if that was viewed by both camps as too invasive but i don't suspect that'll be the case, with the right being more protective of their data than the left.

Well that prediction sure turned out anecdotally backwards within this topic
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

that assumes that this is ever over

how can we ever know that the virus is truly gone? it seems like it would be easy to justify extending it permanently once they get their foot in the door.

I mean there's nothing stopping you from uninstalling it

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Well, I mean, the history of government surveillance in the War of Terror era has been the exact opposite of that - with its main proponents being the right/neocons with the establishment Dems being dragged along out of fear that voters would turn against them if they opposed it because people were scared and Republicans were using opposition to such measures as being unpatriotic to even treasonous. With the opposition forming out of a left/"libertarian" coalition.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Im not saying anythings inaccurate. You never gave your opinions about the PA law against cops targeting bars IIRC. Just checking to see if theyre consistent

Targeting bars is considered entrapment. It isn't allowed. DUIs are a secondary offense also. You have to have a reason to be pulled over that is a primary violation before looked at for a dui.

Dui checkpoints are like the only way around it and those are very controversial as far as constitutionality.

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https://twitter.com/LarrySabato/status/1251265587596136451

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I dunno, they can make things uninstall-proof

Remember when it took a massive revolt for Apple to finally relent and let you delete that U2 song they put into everyones library
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Jakyl25 posted...

I dunno, they can make things uninstall-proof

Remember when it took a massive revolt for Apple to finally relent and let you delete that U2 song they put into everyones library

In order to help fight COVID-19, everyone's ringtone has now been replaced with Gal Gadot singing Imagine...

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LordoftheMorons posted...

I mean there's nothing stopping you from uninstalling it

Ok, what if we keep the app permanent and require everyone to use it to obtain a permit before engaging in intercourse? If you don't get a permit, you both go to jail. And unless you are married or have a spotless attendance record at church (also monitored) you aren't getting a permit.

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Corrik7 posted...

Targeting bars is considered entrapment. It isn't allowed. DUIs are a secondary offense also. You have to have a reason to be pulled over that is a primary violation before looked at for a dui.

Dui checkpoints are like the only way around it and those are very controversial as far as constitutionality.

I more meant what do you feel about it ethically?

If they dont have anything to hide, then whats the harm right?
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Jakyl25 posted...

Well that prediction sure turned out anecdotally backwards within this topic

that'd be fine with me too!
i got no complaints here.

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SmartMuffin posted...

In order to help fight COVID-19, everyone's ringtone has now been replaced with Gal Gadot singing Imagine...

The cure truly is worse than the disease.

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Honestly, I just assume the app itself would contain malware that could outlast the primary purpose of the app itself. A more tech-savvy Congress would be able to identify that as an issue and legislate to prevent such a thing but Congress is barely out of the "series of tubes" era.

The surveillance state hasn't exactly demonstrated a trustworthy record that would lead me to give them the benefit of the doubt here!

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Jakyl25 posted...

I more meant what do you feel about it ethically?

If they dont have anything to hide, then whats the harm right?

That's fine. As long as it is made known. You shouldn't be trying to trick people into it though.

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For the record I have no strong feelings one way or the other about a surveillance state

I dont value that level of liberty at all but I get that others do
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i mean, if you go SUPER right, wang is correct. all the libertarians (the real ones, anyway) would obviously be against tracing.

the more regular right wouldn't necessarily be against it, though (as corrik is showing).

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

i mean, if you go SUPER right, wang is correct. all the libertarians (the real ones, anyway) would obviously be against tracing.

so like 3 federally elected politicians but not the other 200+ who said super right libertarians would still vote for

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also part of my thinking in this IS including the fact that i expect media to go that way. Washington Post, Bloomberg, CNN, MSNBC, NYT? pro tracing. "we need to do this to stop the virus." significant parts of Fox too, though the rationale of "look if this is what we need to do to open the economy, let's do it." Tucker i expect to be against it.

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If you spin tracing into we can use this to track criminals, the right will eat it up
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Jakyl25 posted...

If you spin tracing into we can use this to track criminals, the right will eat it up

Doubt it.

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Jakyl25 posted...

If you spin tracing into we can use this to track criminals, the right will eat it up

why stop there.
tracing is how you can guarantee your spouse isn't cheating on you.

if you got nothing to hide you'd let your partner see your data.

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Corrik7 posted...

Doubt it.

Thats why they supported the Patriot Act
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Wanglicious posted...

why stop there.
tracing is how you can guarantee your spouse isn't cheating on you.

if you got nothing to hide you'd let your partner see your data.

Nah, they dont want their own cheating to be discovered!
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but what if i call it the latest in military inventions, the 6" branch of the military: The Cuck Guard.
download this app today and you too can join the many men and women who serve the vows they swore to when they got married.


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Yeah, the party and the base that supports it that sent some of its top officials to the hospital bed of an incapacitated Attorney General to get him to sign off on the re-authorization of a surveillance program that the DOJ had ruled illegal and was only thwarted when the acting AG and FBI Director (Comey and Mueller respectively, #throwbackthursday) raced back to the hospital to beat them there to support him - that party would oppose government surveillance under a Republican administration /s

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Fun times in Florida

https://twitter.com/travisakers/status/1251260796476305409?s=21
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LordoftheMorons posted...

I mean there's nothing stopping you from uninstalling it

maybe Im not getting how this hypothecial app works

If I can just uninstall it why would I install it in the first place? What am I getting out of this? I assumed it would be somehow compulsory.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Fun times in Florida

https://twitter.com/travisakers/status/1251260796476305409?s=21

Im ok with this if we can somehow get every other state to agree that no one is allowed to leave Florida.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Fun times in Florida

https://twitter.com/travisakers/status/1251260796476305409?s=21

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I live in Florida and the only thing worthwhile is the beaches. Its the shittiest part about this whole thing.

I actually walked the beach a week ago when there was no sunbathing allowed (only exercise) and there was barely anyone there.

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Not sure we have evidence that Beachs aren't okay. Tbqh. We know the spread is very drastically reduced in sunlight and higher temps. If they practice social distancing, it shouldn't be a real issue. IF

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Florida has hundreds and hundreds of miles of beaches. People should be able to stay 6 feet apart. This isn't China where people at the beaches are literally standing on top of each other.

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Like I work a job where I was told yesterday we had 7k people come through over the course of the day.

A nearly empty beach felt miles safer.

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MoogleKupo141 posted...

maybe Im not getting how this hypothecial app works

If I can just uninstall it why would I install it in the first place? What am I getting out of this? I assumed it would be somehow compulsory.

You're getting less society-wide interventions, e.g. if there's an app with high buy-in maybe we can reopen restaurants. There is definitely a free-rider problem, sure

(Though there's some benefit to your participation in that you can be notified that you may have been infected early and take steps to isolate from your loved ones).

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Corrik7 posted...

Not sure we have evidence that Beachs aren't okay. Tbqh. We know the spread is very drastically reduced in sunlight and higher temps. If they practice social distancing, it shouldn't be a real issue. IF

The mechanism for decreased transmission should be that the virus dies quicker outside of the body (on surfaces etc). Hot weather isn't gonna prevent you from getting it if an infected person coughs in your face.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

The mechanism for decreased transmission should be that the virus dies quicker outside of the body (on surfaces etc). Hot weather isn't gonna prevent you from getting it if an infected person coughs in your face.

Well no one should be coughing in anyone's face at a beach!

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I would rather we just end the lockdown cold turkey tomorrow than have the government install nationwide surveillance software for the purpose of tracking the disease. I'm not willing to trust any administration with that level of power much less the current one. And even if for some reason I had absolute faith in Congress or the Trump administration or the hypothetical future Biden administration or whatever, there's still no guarantee it won't be abused further down the line.

This just isn't a line I think we can cross if we are to maintain a free society.
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