Current Events > If men have no legal say in if women keeps baby, should they HAVE to pay C.S.?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Tenlaar posted...

What's "with it" is that you're repeating the most common right wing anti-abortion argument, which is "if you don't want babies then just keep your legs closed." It's a bad argument when they use it and it's a bad one when you use it too. I don't consider "women have to accept the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy and the associated consequences if they have sex so if it happens she'd better just be ready to step up" to be a valid argument in the year 2020, and the same argument is not more valid when applied to men.

Sex = possible consequences. Thats just life. Women also face consequences. Choosing between keeping a child or not is a serious decision. Both abortion and pregnancy have risks, emotional, physical and financial. Women also should be conscious of them and careful. But the fact is, it is their choice to make because of those physical risks that men dont have. And the government and tax payers are not going to want to have to pay any more than they already do. Who do you think will step up and pay for all these kids guys want to abandon?

onedarksoul posted...

Thinking a bit more on this, every woman I've talked to about this who agreed with men having a choice to opt out was either a) decently well off or more or b) independence minded.

The women who don't tend to need the money a whole lot more, or aren't as independence minded.

lol dude I make six figures and have always been independent. First Im a right winger and then Im broke? Bwahaha keep em coming guys.

Darmik posted...

Err what do you think the single mothers are doing exactly?

Dude, theres a fucking legion of single mothers in the small town I live in who do not work. My duplex neighbor being one of MANY.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

mate girls can get pregnant off precum. you can use a condom, it can maybe slide down or break or anything like that and you can still pull out(or not even finish at all) but a bit of liquid with sperm in it might land in there

I know I'm talking like 1-2% scenarios here but it's still a chance and I've lost sleep over it once when dating this heaps religious girl who was anti-abortion(but had no issues with sex before marriage)

I know. That's why I said talk about the matter seriously with your partner. You need to know the birth control she's on and what will happen if she gets pregnant.

To be completely safe you can get the snip. If you expect her to take responsibility by having a medical procedure to terminate the fetus you can beat her to the punch so it's not necessary.

VVALLBOUNCE posted...

Dude, theres a fucking legion of single mothers in the small town I live in who do not work. My duplex neighbor being one of MANY.

Does that mean they're not stepping up for their children?

What is your argument supposed to be exactly?

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when you want to break it down i can't see how

super early stage abortion(like immediately after finding out you're pregnant) could ever be considered 'worse' than letting a kid grow up with a dad who didn't want to ever know about it(me)

i'd happily pay for the abortion but i would not be cool with years of child support over something i didn't really want.

if my option is to abstain from sex my whole well then that's pretty damn stupid

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No, I believe child support should be opt-in, couldn't rightly call myself pro-choice otherwise.
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haloiscoolisbak posted...

super early stage abortion(like immediately after finding out you're pregnant) could ever be considered 'worse' than letting a kid grow up with a dad who didn't want to ever know about it(me)

To a lot of women yes.

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okay maybe i'll consider this snip then. but that's a little more 'final' and 'irreversible' than one single, early stage abortion. like if you do it early enough it's basically just like painless flushing out of a tadpole

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haloiscoolisbak posted...

okay maybe i'll consider this snip then. but that's a little more 'final' and 'irreversible' than one single, early stage abortion. like if you do it early enough it's basically just like painless flushing out of a tadpole

Snips are reversible.

This is why sex education is also important.

Being painless isn't the issue. A lot of women do not want to terminate life growing in their bodies.

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VVALLBOUNCE posted...

Dude, theres a fucking legion of single mothers in the small town I live in who do not work. My duplex neighbor being one of MANY.

Not every woman can pay for child care or has the support system in place to get help from other people. And America is dreadful about affordable child care or flexible hours for parents.

Darmik posted...

Snips are reversible.

This is why sex education is also important.

then maybe you shouldn't call it a 'snip' because that word conjures up some pretty irreversible images doesn't it?

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VVALLBOUNCE posted...

bro my duplex neighbor is a single mom with two kids who has not worked one day since she moved in there a year and a half ago

I'm not saying they don't exist. I knew someone like that once, too. But the overwhelming majority of single parents (mothers and/or fathers) are employed and providing for their children. That doesn't change the fact that the other parent also has a responsibility to that child.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

then maybe you shouldn't call it a 'snip' because that word conjures up some pretty irreversible images doesn't it?

That's what it is though... they cut your vas deferens. It's a snip.

There are other types of procedures, but that's generally what "the snip" refers to.

Whoops meant to edit not delete my last post.

I know multiple women who had children and still partied every night, posting videos of them and their friends shitfaced on the daily. How is that stepping up for a kid, having them stay with the grandparents? What do you think helps enable this type of mother? Maybe outside financial support..?

You wanna hear some fucked up shit? I once dated a girl who had a 3 year old boy, sweetest kid you can imagine. This relationship lasted two months because I figured out she was a drug addict - we were out driving around with her child, she asked to stop at a gas station to use the bathroom and was in there for like 10 minutes, me just chilling with her child in my backseat, and when she came back she was fucked up and couldnt hide it.

With her child right there.

i guess for me i seem to only encounter pro-life people who are also bible thumpers so in my mind it's hard to ever consider their position on an argument a rational one

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haloiscoolisbak posted...

then maybe you shouldn't call it a 'snip' because that word conjures up some pretty irreversible images doesn't it?

Maybe you should actually learn what your options are before automatically expecting women to abort their babies for your own benefit.

Instead of y'know, complaining about terms like snip.

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VVALLBOUNCE posted...

Whoops meant to edit not delete my last post.

I know multiple women who had children and still partied every night, posting videos of them and their friends shitfaced on the daily. How is that stepping up for a kid, having them stay with the grandparents? What do you think helps enable this type of mother? Maybe outside financial support..?

You wanna hear some fucked up shit? I once dated a girl who had a 3 year old boy, sweetest kid you can imagine. This relationship lasted two months because I figured out she was a drug addict - we were out driving around with her child, she asked to stop at a gas station to use the bathroom and was in there for like 10 minutes, me just chilling with her child in my backseat, and when she came back she was fucked up and couldnt hide it.

With her child right there.

And how many deadbeat Dads would go out and party while the Mother of their child slaves away in a minimum wage job and barely gets to see her kid because of how much she's struggling without any financial help?

What's the point of this post? Do you think having a kid is a fun ride? Do you think social media videos paint the entire picture of a person?

What about the person that matters the most? The kid. If the Dad doesn't think the Mother is responsible he can always step up and try to take custody too.

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An even better discussion than the child support one is custody rights/battles.

You know, where a woman pretty much has to commit murder to lose a childs custody, but a man, any minor slip up and CYA.

There are countless GOOD MEN out there who have been thoroughly ass fucked by the system, and no one wants to acknowledge it, instead they choose to belittle and insult anyone who does.

So, equality and all, in what ways do any good women get ass fucked by laws pertaining to children?

Darmik posted...

Maybe you should actually learn what your options are before automatically expecting women to abort their babies for your own benefit.

Instead of y'know, complaining about terms like snip.

What about a situation where the women instigated the sexual encounter that lead to the pregnancy? As in she wanted it more.

Because I get this vibe from some posters that sex is almost men's 'fault' and men should accept the 'consequences' of sex, of their filthy heathen carnal desires lol

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VVALLBOUNCE posted...

An even better discussion than the child support one is custody rights/battles.

You know, where a woman pretty much has to commit murder to lose a childs custody, but a man, any minor slip up and CYA.

There are countless GOOD MEN out there who have been thoroughly ass fucked by the system, and no one wants to acknowledge it, instead they choose to belittle and insult anyone who does.

Thats a completely different subject and one I would agree with. But that isnt what this topic is about and it seems like youre just moving goalposts now.

Cleo_II posted...

Sex = possible consequences. Thats just life. Women also face consequences. Choosing between keeping a child or not is a serious decision. Both abortion and pregnancy have risks, emotional, physical and financial. Women also should be conscious of them and careful. But the fact is, it is their choice to make because of those physical risks that men dont have. And the government and tax payers are not going to want to have to pay any more than they already do. Who do you think will step up and pay for all these kids guys want to abandon?

lol dude I make six figures and have always been independent. First Im a right winger and then Im broke? Bwahaha keep em coming guys.

I am one of those taxpayers and I do want to have such robust social safety nets that everybody is able to feel that they can be a single parent without having to struggle, and I am not alone in that desire. You don't get to make things up and then use it as an argument. I am not saying that you actually are a right winger, I'm saying that in this case you're using a right winger argument. Because you absolutely are. You are literally arguing "if you don't want babies then keep your legs closed." That is 100% a right wing stance that we on the left are supposed to vehemently oppose when it's used to say that women shouldn't have abortions...until we start talking about financial abortion, when suddenly a bunch of people like you act like it becomes a valid argument when it's applied to men.

VVALLBOUNCE posted...

An even better discussion than the child support one is custody rights/battles.

You know, where a woman pretty much has to commit murder to lose a childs custody, but a man, any minor slip up and CYA.

There are countless GOOD MEN out there who have been thoroughly ass fucked by the system, and no one wants to acknowledge it, instead they choose to belittle and insult anyone who does.

So, equality and all, in what ways do any good women get ass fucked by laws pertaining to children?

That's a separate discussion that has its own issues. Yes the Mother taking responsibility for the kid for raising the kid is seen as the default view on society and Dads have an upper hill to climb for custody which isn't fair. These things are complicated.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

What about a situation where the women instigated the sexual encounter that lead to the pregnancy? As in she wanted it more.

Because I get this vibe from some posters that sex is almost men's 'fault' and men should accept the 'consequences' of sex, of their filthy heathen carnal desires lol

What about it?

The sex isn't what matters. The kid is what matters. Both parties need to accept the consequences whatever that may be.

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If women deserve 100, not 50, not 90 but 100% of the decision to keep or abort a baby, then getting 100% of the benefit/power from the child support ruling/law when it was a 50-50 choice to have sex(ideally) is not justice

I don't know much about child support but are their circumstances when a man in my position only has to pay a small amount? Rather then covering the cost of the child's upbringing 50-50. If I was charged say 10% on a child I wanted aborted then I could accept that

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Tenlaar posted...

I am one of those taxpayers and I do want to have such robust social safety nets that everybody is able to feel that they can be a single parent without having to struggle, and I am not alone in that desire. You don't get to make things up and then use it as an argument. I am not saying that you actually are a right winger, I'm saying that in this case you're using a right winger argument. Because you absolutely are. You are literally arguing "if you don't want babies then keep your legs closed." That is 100% a right wing stance that we on the left are supposed to vehemently oppose when it's used to say that women shouldn't have abortions...until we start talking about financial abortion, when suddenly a bunch of people like you act like it becomes a valid argument when it's applied to men.

I have said that sex has consequences for women and men. That is a fact. Adults should make careful decisions regarding sex and pregnancy. Im not sure what else to say to you because you seem to be foaming at the mouth to try and make this a political thing when it isnt. Ive said my piece on this. Make what you want of it, Im done with your mental masturbation.

Darmik posted...

Do you think having a kid is a fun ride?

Having kids is a fun ride.

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haloiscoolisbak posted...

If women deserve 100, not 50, not 90 but 100% of the decision to keep or abort a baby, then getting 100% of the benefit/power from the child support ruling/law when it was a 50-50 choice to have sex(ideally) is not justice

I don't know much about child support but are their circumstances when a man in my position only has to pay a small amount? Rather then covering the cost of the child's upbringing 50-50. If I was charged say 10% on a child I wanted aborted then I could accept that

It's not about the man and it's not about justice.

It's about giving that child a fair opportunity to live their life.

The man cannot force a woman to go through an abortion because it's not his body. The man cannot ignore that he has a child.

Saying "If you don't have an abortion I give up any and all responsibility for that child and I'm not liable for a single thing' is not justice for that child.

The fairest thing possible is if someone else can take over his role as father but I have no idea how that could be handled.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

Not every sexual encounter needs a goddamn 5 point contingency plan with lawyers overseeing contracts before the encounter can happen

Your viewpoint doesn't work in reality, people have drunken sex upon meeting

So get the snip.

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Not every sexual encounter needs a goddamn 5 point contingency plan with lawyers overseeing contracts before the encounter can happen

Your viewpoint doesn't work in reality, people have drunken sex upon meeting

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haloiscoolisbak posted...

If women deserve 100, not 50, not 90 but 100% of the decision to keep or abort a baby, then getting 100% of the benefit/power from the child support ruling/law when it was a 50-50 choice to have sex(ideally) is not justice

Biology is unfair.

Darmik posted...

It's not about the man and it's not about justice.

It's about giving that child a fair opportunity to live their life.

The man cannot force a woman to go through an abortion because it's not his body. The man cannot ignore that he has a child.

Saying "If you don't have an abortion I give up any and all responsibility for that child and I'm not liable for a single thing' is not justice for that child.

The fairest thing possible is if someone else can take over his role as father but I have no idea how that could be handled.

It's not about justice? Sorry I'm still a person with my own financial needs too. In fact when this potential child is still a tadpole my life is more important

I just can't shake this vibe that you think sex is the highly risky thing that people should be excessively careful about before doing. Yes I'll use a condom.

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haloiscoolisbak posted...

It's not about justice? Sorry I'm still a person with my own financial needs too. In fact when this potential child is still a tadpole my life is more important

Cool. That's why you don't pay until after it's born.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

I just can't shake this vibe that you think sex is the highly risky thing that people should be excessively careful about before doing. Yes I'll use a condom.

Nope. I had sex for 10 years without any unwanted pregnancies.

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Okay so every male should get the snip. Problem fixed. I guess these surgeries aren't so traumatic after all. Abortions should also get the reputation as the run of the mill clinical procedures they are

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Darmik posted...

Cool. That's why you don't pay until after it's born.

Nope. I had sex for 10 years without any unwanted pregnancies.

Lmao okay 9 months to save up before a lifetime of payments. Awesome!

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TheOtherMike posted...

Biology is unfair.

Its mind boggling how some people do not understand this.

Pregnancy is no walk in the park either. My friend went into early labor recently and ended up in the ICU. She had multiple seizures and passed out. Doctors managed to save her and the babys lives, but she had mobility and vision issues for weeks. The baby stayed at the hospital a couple of weeks before she can bring him home. She has always been healthy, active and with no underlying issues.

No one should get to decide if a woman should take that sort of risk or not.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

Okay so every male should get the snip. Problem fixed. I guess these surgeries aren't so traumatic after all. Abortions should also get the reputation as the run of the mill clinical procedures they are

Use condoms
Check what birth control your partner is on and how safe that is.

If that's still not enough for you

Get the snip.

It's not hard. This is why sexual education is important for people like you who think the snip is irreversible and yet expect women to be responsible for absolutely everything.

A world where child support is opt-in is a world where there is no consequence or responsibility for deadbeat fathers.

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Cleo_II posted...

Its mind boggling how some people do not understand this.

Pregnancy is no walk in the park either. My friend went into early labor recently and ended up in the ICU. She had multiple seizures and passed out. Doctors managed to save her and the babys lives, but she had mobility and vision issues for weeks. The baby stayed at the hospital a couple of weeks before she can bring him home. She has always been healthy, active and with no underlying issues.

No one should get to decide if a woman should take that sort of risk or not.

Yeah pregnancy is brutal. Almost not worth going through when the alternative is so quick and painless

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Darmik posted...

Use condoms
Check what birth control your partner is on and how safe that is.

If that's still not enough for you

Get the snip.

It's not hard. This is why sexual education is important for people like you who think the snip is irreversible and yet expect women to be responsible for absolutely everything.

A world where child support is opt-in is a world where there is no consequence or responsibility for deadbeat fathers.

I don't expect women to be responsible for everything - you think they shouldn't be responsible for anything. Ignoring my snip comment which I admit was dumb - I just think the balance of power shold be a tiny bit moved away from the direction you seem to think it should reside in

If sex was something that men wanted more (which is a stereotype) then I'd agree with you a lot more.

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haloiscoolisbak posted...

I don't expect women to be responsible for everything - you think they shouldn't be responsible for anything

They are responsible.

They have to decide whether or not to have an abortion. A choice that they'll remember for the rest of their lives. Something they'll have to live with forever.

They have to decide on whether or not they'll raise the child themselves or give them up to someone else. Something they'll have to live with forever.

The fact that you think this isn't a responsibility says a lot about you.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

If sex was something that men wanted more (which is a stereotype) then I'd agree with you a lot more.

Wanting sex isn't the point of child support guy.

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Darmik posted...

The kid is what matters.

Right, the kid that the woman had all say in whether it'd be born or not.

Cleo_II posted...

lol dude I make six figures and have always been independent. First Im a right winger and then Im broke? Bwahaha keep em coming guys.

Sure sure. Your argument is mainly financial in nature and now all of a sudden you dont need no mans money. Tell us how it is, girlfriend

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onedarksoul posted...

Right, the kid that the woman had all say in whether it'd be born or not.

Yes. Because it's growing in her body. Her body is supporting it in every single way and it's becoming life inside of her.

It's a pretty big fucking deal for her.

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Yes.

Sucks to suck, men.

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Darmik posted...

They are responsible.

They have to decide whether or not to have an abortion. A choice that they'll remember for the rest of their lives. Something they'll have to live with forever.

They have to decide on whether or not they'll raise the child themselves or give them up to someone else. Something they'll have to live with forever.

The fact that you think this isn't a responsibility says a lot about you.

Wanting sex isn't the point of child support guy.

Don't 'guy' me it's condescending AF

If we're talking about laws then of course the sex part is important. It's all part of the process

Guys can feel guilt over abortions too. I don't claim its more guilt or anything but I'd still feel bad. I'd consider it the lesser of two evils though compared to me disappearing from their life forever after they're a sentinent being

But if we want to really break it down (which laws should be, to the finest element) I cant see how what you're saying is fair to one of the parties involved in the process

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haloiscoolisbak posted...

But if we want to really break it down (which laws should be, to the finest element) I cant see how what you're saying is fair to one of the parties involved in the process

TheOtherMike posted...

Biology is unfair.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

But if we want to really break it down (which laws should be, to the finest element) I cant see how what you're saying is fair to one of the parties involved in the process

Pregnancy inherently isn't a fair process

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Darmik posted...

Yes. Because it's growing in her body. Her body is supporting it in every single way and it's becoming life inside of her.

It's a pretty big fucking deal for her.

Being on the hook for 18-21 years is a pretty big deal for most men, too.

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haloiscoolisbak posted...

If we're talking about laws then of course the sex part is important. It's all part of the process

Men and women wanting sex with each other isn't relevant to that kid being born no.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

Guys can feel guilt over abortions too. I don't claim its more guilt or anything but I'd still feel bad.

Good for you.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

I'd consider it the lesser of two evils though compared to me disappearing from their life forever after they're a sentinent being

And it's easy for you to consider because you don't need to go through an abortion.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

But if we want to really break it down (which laws should be, to the finest element) I cant see how what you're saying is fair to one of the parties involved in the process

The only fair thing is two parents wanting to raise that kid together.

Unfortunately life isn't always fair.

onedarksoul posted...

Being on the hook for 18-21 years is a pretty big deal for most men, too.

Until you argue that it should be optional.

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There should be a financial abortion.

I don't personally do not agree with abortion, however I am person who says that is between the woman and her Doctor not me. However since woman can be released from responsibility I think men should be able to as well. It is only fair .


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That's the only sane position to take.

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cjsdowg posted...

There should be a financial abortion.

I don't personally do not agree with abortion, however I am person who says that is between the woman and her Doctor not me. However since woman can be released from responsibility I think men should be able to as well. It is only fair .

You can't 'financially abort' someone.

You are arguing for child support to be optional. Call it for what it is.

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cjsdowg posted...

There should be a financial abortion.

I don't personally do not agree with abortion, however I am person who says that is between the woman and her Doctor not me. However since woman can be released from responsibility I think men should be able to as well. It is only fair .

I personally dont think that women should bear all the physical risks of pregnancy alone. I think we should design a system where we can hook mens brains into it so they can feel every cramp, nausea attacks, back aches, or birth pains. Also if the woman dies in childbirth, so should the man. It will be like the matrix but for pregnancy.

Its only fair.

I keep hearing life isn't fair/biology isn't fair

Then I guess it's badluck that were not seahorses and the women in our species carry the child(joking)

Biology isn't fair of course but laws should be. And forcing an unwilling father to pay for the 'consequences' in this scenario for years and years is unfair


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Cleo_II posted...

I personally dont think that women should bear all the physical risks of pregnancy alone. I think we should design a system where we can hook mens brains into it so they can feel every cramp, nausea attacks, back aches, or birth pains. Also if the woman dies in childbirth, so should the man. It will be like the matrix but for pregnancy.

Its only fair.

We agree with each other. Pregnancy sucks. So get an abortion

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