Current Events > If men have no legal say in if women keeps baby, should they HAVE to pay C.S.?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Darmik posted...

You're really overlooking the guilt side of things that women have to live with for the rest of their life for both of these decisions. You don't know what it's like to be pregnant or give birth. You and I will never know.

You honestly think men dont have feelings in regards to their off spring?
Darmik posted...

Except you are.

In your ideal scenario it doesn't matter what the woman does because the man doesn't have any responsibility. Taking an abortion is a responsibility. Organising an adoption is a responsibility. Not paying for your own child regardless of what she does isn't a responsibility at all.

No. My ideal scenario is a world where every child is born to a family that loves them for who they are and supports them emotionally, intellectually and financially to the best of their abilities. My ideal scenario does not include children being born in to poverty or a broken home because a woman was guilted in to keeping her baby because of religion even though she knew her only support would come in the form of a pathetic cheque because the guy that go her pregnant wasn't just a deadbeat but a vindictive asshole that refuses to make something of himself just so he wouldn't have to pay as much in child support.

Do you think it was fun for me growing up in a home with no father and spending more time in foster care than with my actual mother? Knowing that I had a sister out there that I was likely never to meet? It's not a life I would wish on anyone and I've seen the other side of it when the man is forced to pay child support so he takes his kid anyway. My brother was beaten relentlessly by his father because he was bitter about having to pay child support, but because he already had to pay child support he wasn't going to do it for free.

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IfGodCouldDie posted...

My ideal scenario is a world where every child is born to a family that loves them for who they are and supports them emotionally, intellectually and financially to the best of their abilities.

That's an impossible utopia. The actual scenario you're advocating is one where men have zero responsibility, women have the full brunt of responsibility, and the biggest loser is the kid.

Yes. If you help create a life, you are responsible for that life, whether you want to be or not.

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shnangyboos posted...

So now it's the guy's fault. If a guy lied to a woman about whatever birth control, then split and left her to deal with it, there's no way in hell you'd say she fucked up by allowing herself to be impregnated by such a man.

It's not about fault. It's about responsibility.

And yes there are plenty of scenarios where a woman fucked up by being impregnated by a scumbag. What on Earth?

IfGodCouldDie posted...

You honestly think men dont have feelings in regards to their off spring?

Apparently if the decision from their perspective is 'Abort. You'll never see me again either way' they don't seem to.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

No. My ideal scenario is a world where every child is born to a family that loves them for who they are and supports them emotionally, intellectually and financially to the best of their abilities. My ideal scenario does not include children being born in to poverty or a broken home because a woman was guilted in to keeping her baby because of religion even though she knew her only support would come in the form of a pathetic cheque because the guy that go her pregnant wasn't just a deadbeat but a vindictive asshole that refuses to make something of himself just so he wouldn't have to pay as much in child support.

Unfortunately life isn't always ideal. Or fair.

There is no fair and ideal scenario for unwanted pregnancies.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Do you think it was fun for me growing up in a home with no father and spending more time in foster care than with my actual mother? Knowing that I had a sister out there that I was likely never to meet? It's not a life I would wish on anyone and I've seen the other side of it when the man is forced to pay child support so he takes his kid anyway. My brother was beaten relentlessly by his father because he was bitter about having to pay child support, but because he already had to pay child support he wasn't going to do it for free.

No. But I don't think abusive fathers are a defense to avoid child support.

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So many sexist pieces of shit posting in this topic, god damn.

Cleo_II posted...

I have said that sex has consequences for women and men. That is a fact. Adults should make careful decisions regarding sex and pregnancy. Im not sure what else to say to you because you seem to be foaming at the mouth to try and make this a political thing when it isnt. Ive said my piece on this. Make what you want of it, Im done with your mental masturbation.

Im not the one youre responding to here but you never answered my earlier question what if the woman also chose not to use birth control? 90% of the women Ive been with have preferred sex without a condom.

@Cleo_II

If the man and woman agree to have an abortion or use a morning-after pill or whatever before, but then she changes her mind later, should he still be on the hook for child support?

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BathroomWater posted...

If the man and woman agree to have an abortion or use a morning-after pill or whatever before, but then she changes her mind later, should he still be on the hook for child support?

If a man puts his dick in a woman and his baby eventually comes out, yes. He should pay child support, even if she's trying to game him.

The moral is: Don't stick your dick in crazy.

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Wii_Shaker posted...

The moral is: Don't stick your dick in crazy.

A.K.A. "if you don't want a baby keep your legs closed, slut."

Has anyone explained how a man should have a say in abortion, especially if they want to keep it?

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hockeybub89 posted...

Has anyone explained how a man should have a say in abortion, especially if they want to keep it?

It's kinda hilarious to even think about for a second. "The man should be able to unilaterally force the woman to abort or else it's not fair!"

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Wii_Shaker posted...

If a man puts his dick in a woman and his baby eventually comes out, yes. He should pay child support, even if she's trying to game him.

The moral is: Don't stick your dick in crazy.

She's trying to game him becuase we have a bais gynocentric legal system that allows it. Woman will be alot more careful with the man they sleep with if their financial support is cut by gutting C.S.

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Obviously the abortion decision is black and white. It either or happens or it doesn't. So of course women should get more control (or essentially complete control) of that decision. But should she also get an assurance that the other party must pay his equal share if he vehemently didn't want the child?

No way Jose

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the answer here is don't do things that don't have consequences if you're not prepared for the consequences. So no, I don't feel sympathy for people paying child support. I mean I do when the payments are super high, but you did it man. Just own up to it.

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Men don't have "no legal say" there's fucktons of laws and regulatory hoops women have to go through to get an abortion in some states. All of those are passed by men.

So long as there exists a single law prohibiting access to abortions even as a waiting period, child support should be mandatory.

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I'm specifically arguing for circumstances when the women doesn't want to have an abortion - the men doesn't want the child or anything to do with the child - but still has to pay money(a lot of money) because he dared to gasp... have sex and now he must face the CONSEQUENCES

I should state I'm not american - I assume your laws surrounding abortions are lot more tougher(or perhaps I should say more archaic)

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also I guarantee some of the guys arguing against me in this topic wouldn't undertake male contraception in the form of medical intervention (ie... things more serious than condoms) in a million years - you all talk a big game but I know at the end of the day you feel the same way as me

if you ever find yourself one of the unlucky 3% who use a condom, still get a girl pregnant and now find yourself indebted 4 lyf because the girl thinks abortions are murder - you'll see my side of things

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It would be strange to see someone try to spin the law requiring you not to let your child starve into the state "punishing" someone for having sex. It would be strange if that person didn't also troll about rape.

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for the record even the moderator who deleted that topic acknowledged I wasn't trolling(it was a NKL) he just stated this isn't the place to have such discussions.

But go on, continue to be obtuse. You knew/know I just wanted a dialogue about rape(because I genuinely had a thought about how crazy it really is and wanted to discuss it).

I wasn't praising it/excusing it/denying it/making light of it or anything like that - and if it was trying to analyse the mind of a murderer you wouldn't have said peep.

Be gone

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Nah, I might actually find your position on child starvation weirder if you had trolled about murder instead.

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trolled about murder lol. no you would have probably lapped up a topic about a murderer like a teenager watching the Ted Bundy documentary. But rape is something that must never be talked about ever apparently in any critical sense. It's so taboo you can't even utter the word. It's like Voldemort.

Child Starvation lol you should write clickbait articles. What a spin on this - how about I spin it to bankrupting minorities who don't have easy access to contraception?


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haloiscoolisbak posted...

What a spin on this - how about I spin it to bankrupting minorities who don't have easy access to contraception?

What do you mean? You're already saying this is what should be done to women who don't have abortions.

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Kolibri X posted...

I support child support payments. There needs to be something to keep deadbeat men in check when they're stupid enough to bust raw in a woman and think they can just walk out on the child. Don't want kids or pay child support? Snip it or wrap it up, losers.

My ex wife owes me @$8000 in back child support. It's not just men that are deadbeats. My son is 21 now, she's been dodging paying since he was 15. Social services did squat to pursue while he was a minor and even less now since it's gone into arrears. Check your verbage @Kolibri X before painting broad strokes.

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i don't know it was meant to be a parody of your stupid spin on things - i guess my intention was implying young males living in impoverished communities shouldn't be chained to a child support payment if they wanted female x to get an abortion but female x was scared of abortions for religious reason or something.

Which is a point I've basically stuck to this entire thread(re abortions should be made super accessible everywhere and lose their stigma/taboo) but people like you keep spinning it into something else, much like you've spun my analysis of rape into some kind of weird thing it isn't as well. and since the topic is gone you know you can get away with it.

you're fighting unfairly here

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BathroomWater posted...

Im not the one youre responding to here but you never answered my earlier question what if the woman also chose not to use birth control? 90% of the women Ive been with have preferred sex without a condom.

@Cleo_II

If the man and woman agree to have an abortion or use a morning-after pill or whatever before, but then she changes her mind later, should he still be on the hook for child support?

It doesnt matter who makes the decision on what birth control is used. The point is someone has to support the life that was created. Both parties are making the decision to have unprotected sex here, or the man is agreeing to put full responsibility of birth control on her. Even if a woman in your example doesnt want to use a condom, the man still has a choice to agree to that or not.

As for her changing her mind, stuff happens. Pregnancy can stir emotions in women. Its not some nefarious motivation. Two adults having sex should be prepared for those kinds of consequences. Just like a man could also change his mind and decide he doesnt really want a child when he thought he did.

So in a similar example, lets say men could withdraw from paying CS if they didnt want a child. What if a man told a woman he wanted the baby and would stick by her, then changed his mind when the kid is born and tells the courts he never wanted it? Should he or should he not pay? How are the courts to sit around and make a decision on every single case like this? Men saying theyll stick around only to abandon their child happens all the time. If you gave men the option to choose, a good chunk of them are going to lie to get out of paying.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

i don't know it was meant to be a parody of your stupid spin on things - i guess my intention was implying young males living in impoverished communities shouldn't be chained to a child support payment if they wanted female x to get an abortion but female x was scared of abortions for religious reason or something.

men in impoverished communities shouldn't be "chained" to feeding their kid, but women and children in impoverished should instead be chained to languishing under a deadbeat dad because you don't like women's reasons for not pursuing abortion. yeah, why would anyone accuse you of having weird attitudes towards women.

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<i>How are the courts to sit around and make a decision on every single case like this?</i>

Don't all these cases go through court anyway? What's the harm in expecting them taking a little bit more time to go through the cases with a little more scrutiny

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Frolex posted...

men in impoverished communities shouldn't be "chained" to feeding their kid, but women and children in impoverished should instead be chained to languishing under a deadbeat dad because you don't like women's reasons for not pursuing abortion. yeah, why would anyone accuse you of having weird attitudes towards women.

so you acknowledge it's one or the other - great. someone has to lose out here. biology isnt fair or whatever was the buzzphrase a few pages back.

i just happen to be on side of the argument, you're on the other. tell me i have weird attitudes to women if you like, personally based on my own experience with this situation I can tell you it's a weird attitude to religion(I dated a religious girl even though I'm not because I wanted to not be your typical angry atheist and I liked her for other reasons and stuff - then this issue came up early on with dating and things fell apart quickly)

And I bet I'm not the only person who's gone through this

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haloiscoolisbak posted...

so you acknowledge it's one or the other - great. someone has to lose out here. biology isnt fair or whatever was the buzzphrase a few pages back.

No, it's not one or the other, it's about the child. Full stop. You're just obsessed with shielding men, and only men, from responsibility because in your world a woman not having an abortion is irresponsible.

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Cleo_II posted...

It doesnt matter who makes the decision on what birth control is used. The point is someone has to support the life that was created. Both parties are making the decision to have unprotected sex here, or the man is agreeing to put full responsibility of birth control on her. Even if a woman in your example doesnt want to use a condom, the man still has a choice to agree to that or not.

Agreed, and I think it should be society collectively if one of the parents, say, doesnt have the ability to support the child.

As for her changing her mind, stuff happens. Pregnancy can stir emotions in women. Its not some nefarious motivation.

I didnt mean to imply I thought it was nefarious, just that it can happen and may catch one party totally off-guard and against their will.

So in a similar example, lets say men could withdraw from paying CS if they didnt want a child. What if a man told a woman he wanted the baby and would stick by her, then changed his mind when the kid is born and tells the courts he never wanted it? Should he or should he not pay? How are the courts to sit around and make a decision on every single case like this? Men saying theyll stick around only to abandon their child happens all the time. If you gave men the option to choose, a good chunk of them are going to lie to get out of paying.

I suppose at that point, in both my example and yours, it would probably have to come down to some sort of pre-sex written contract if we want the courts to be able to reasonably make a decision.

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Frolex posted...

No, it's not one or the other, it's about the child. Full stop. You're just obsessed with shielding men, and only men, from responsibility because in your world a woman not having an abortion is irresponsible.

I'm standing up for the opposing view, in this thread, arguing against you and that other guy earlier. He and you are 100% obsessed with shielding women or whatever, whatever you can call my view I guess I call yours the opposite.

Do women in general need more shielding than men? Absolutely. On this particular issue though I feel some people aren't willing to give any power to the man at all - and at least in the financial side of things I feel he deserves some power. Especially in certain circumstances

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haloiscoolisbak posted...

I'm standing up for the opposing view, in this thread, arguing against you and that other guy earlier. He and you are 100% obsessed with shielding women or whatever, whatever you can call my view I guess I call yours the opposite.

Like you would know if anyone had ever taught you to read, the only people i care about "shielding" in this situation are the children. If a woman wants to be delinquent on her child support payments, the state should step in too. You on the other hand believe that women deserve to languish if they don't let their partner force them into an abortion

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And you think men should be chained to supporting a child that they don't want no matter the circumstances (and sorry I do consider being against abortion for religious reasons total bullshit)

We're both guilty of using perhaps some overdramatic language here (languish/chained) but yeah it's clear this conversation may as well end now

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CS should be on a card and can only be used for certain things. Rent, food, clothes, etc. Things the child actually needs

Not salon visits or pussy waxing

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haloiscoolisbak posted...

And you think men should be chained to supporting a child that they don't want no matter the circumstances (and sorry I do consider being against abortion for religious reasons total bullshit)

Nope, both parents have an equal responsibility to their child. Our difference here is you believe women have the responsibility to acquiesce to a man's demand for an abortion

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BathroomWater posted...

Agreed, and I think it should be society collectively if one of the parents, say, doesnt have the ability to support the child.

I didnt mean to imply I thought it was nefarious, just that it can happen and may catch one party totally off-guard and against their will.

I suppose at that point, in both my example and yours, it would probably have to come down to some sort of pre-sex written contract if we want the courts to be able to reasonably make a decision.

See this is where you and I disagree. I dont believe taxpayers should be stepping up to pay for every unwanted kid any more than we already do. The father should also have responsibility. And yeah the idea that we would have to sign contracts every time we have sex is just not something anyone wants to do. Too many possible appeals as well. People can sign whatever when theyre in the heat of the moment, drunk, etc

Cleo_II posted...

So in a similar example, lets say men could withdraw from paying CS if they didnt want a child. What if a man told a woman he wanted the baby and would stick by her, then changed his mind when the kid is born and tells the courts he never wanted it? Should he or should he not pay? How are the courts to sit around and make a decision on every single case like this? Men saying theyll stick around only to abandon their child happens all the time. If you gave men the option to choose, a good chunk of them are going to lie to get out of paying.

If the courts can prove the guy is a lying sack of shit then put him on support. Shouldnt be to hard. Text messages, witnesses testimony from both parties family and freinds, what they're prior relationship was like and so on.

If she slept with a bunch of guys in one night stands and you just happaned to be the father amongst them but you want nothing to do with said woman and child then the guy should have the right to walk away from C.S.

It wont always go this smoothly though but ita fad more balanced then what we have now.

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Frolex posted...

Nope, both parents have an equal responsibility to their child. Our difference here is you believe women have the responsibility to acquiesce to a man's demand for an abortion

I truly, honestly don't. When my own situation occurred I didn't even bother pushing the issue of abortion as I knew she was religious and wouldn't cave(or shed be scarred for life if she had caved because she views abortion as a sin)- I just said if you're pregnant don't expect me to be part of this kids life. I still probably would have given money(especially if I was legally required lol) but yeah having a kid is something I really, really don't want as I think it pretty much changes your life forever in a negative sense.

Luckily her pregnancy scare turned out to be just that, a scare. But the conversations we had in the meantime were infuriating for me and I haven't forgotten them, clearly!

Oh, and I used a condom

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haloiscoolisbak posted...

I truly, honestly don't.

Great, glad you agree children of mothers who didn't have an abortion are still the legal and financial responsibility of both parents, even if the father doesn't like that fact

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Yeah I agree that is the current law. And I think it's a dumb law

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Prismsblade posted...

If the courts can prove the guy is a lying sack of shit then put him on support. Shouldnt be to hard. Text messages, witnesses testimony from both parties family and freinds, what they're prior relationship was like and so on.

If she slept with a bunch of guys in one night stands and you just happaned to be the father amongst them but you want nothing to do with said woman and child then the guy should have the right to walk away from C.S.

It wont always go this smoothly though but ita fad more balanced then what we have now.

Yes, lets just have the courts sit around and review hundreds or thousands of texts over a 9 month period (or more), and spend countless hours going over testimonies. Lets just have big trials for every CS case. Im sure our already shitty court system can handle that. People wont mind if their cases get pushed back a couple of more years, right?

haloiscoolisbak posted...

Yeah I agree that is the current law. And I think it's a dumb law

So then you do have a problem with women not getting abortions. Why would you lie to me like this?

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I have a problem with the financial side of the law in its current form

I literally felt powerless in my own situation, which I was. All because I had sex

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haloiscoolisbak posted...

I have a problem with the financial side of the law in its current form

The financial side of not letting men force women into abortions, yes we know

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Whatever. If you think men should feel powerless in this situation I won't argue. It wasn't a nice feeling though and I hope you don't go through it

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haloiscoolisbak posted...

Whatever. If you think men should feel powerless in this situation I won't argue.

I don't think women should be allowed to force women to have an abortion either. Stop projecting your obsession with gendering the issue on me.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

It wasn't a nice feeling though and I hope you don't go through it

fortunately, barring significant developments in medicine, I don't think I'll ever have to worry about someone trying to force me to get an abortion

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Okay now I'm just confused lol

If you're a man I hope you don't end up in my position. If you do, and you're as willing to potentially dish out lifelong CS payments to a girl you've dated a couple of months as you say you are then I guess you won't feel too bad about it if you ever have to face it

And I guess you're a stronger man than me

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haloiscoolisbak posted...

If you do, and you're as willing to potentially dish out lifelong CS payments to a girl you've dated a couple of months as you say you are then I guess you won't feel too bad about it if you ever have to face it

yeah, paying child support is some fantastic and twisted freak occurrence rather a totally normal thing millions of people already do.

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Dont spread your seed if you are not ready to take care of the result.

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Frolex posted...

yeah, paying child support is some fantastic and twisted freak occurrence rather a totally normal thing millions of people already do.

When you used a condom it hurts that little bit extra though

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haloiscoolisbak posted...

When you used a condom it hurts that little bit extra though

imagine how much more it hurts to raise a child with a deadbeat dad

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