Poll of the Day > Heaven or Hell? Day 3: Daenarys Targaryen

(+) Yeah! (+)

A close one, but LinkPizza manages to pull into Heaven! Today, we have the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, Daenarys Targaryen! What say ye, PotD? Will she join LinkPizza in heaven? Or will she have some reflecting to do with Thanos IN HELL?

===Placements===
Heaven:
LinkPizza (53.49%)

Hell:
Thanos (80%)

Thanks for all the nominations last time! Currently still taking more!

Upcoming Fates (not necessarily in order):
Joseph Stalin
Pablo Escobar
Kim Jong Un
Casey Anthony
Samus Aran
Bill Gates
Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson
Grimace (Purple Chicken Nugget guy)
DeltaBladeX
Muscles' Baby? (Not sure if he has a baby or if he's baby muscles?)
Kimbo
EvilMegas
Jaime Lannister
Robert Baratheon
Lokarin

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Obviously hell

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I assume the book version isn't as bad as the shitty tv version that just throws away character development.
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There is sex in hell, so easy choice.


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I nominate:

Wolverine
Helly (I mean the answer is obvious but it has to be done)
and
Colonel Harland Sanders (imagine how many heart attacks his chicken has caused!!).


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Revelation34 posted...

I assume the book version isn't as bad as the shitty tv version that just throws away character development.

I imagine the end of her would be about the same in the books, but it would feel more natural and wed be seeing her decline from her own POV which would give a lot more reasons for her actions.

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Revelation34 posted...

I assume the book version isn't as bad as the shitty tv version that just throws away character development.

blame them for wanting to rush the final season to get to their new project
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Hell. obviously.

nominate...Gaiman's Lucifer.

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Krazy_Kirby posted...

blame them for wanting to rush the final season to get to their new project

Yeah it just needed to be fleshed out more. Her descent into madness was too quick and made it seem forced

OhhhJa posted...

Yeah it just needed to be fleshed out more. Her descent into madness was too quick and made it seem forced

They were fine when they were mostly just following the existing books, one book per season (more or less), and not having to come up with their own material or pacing.

Once they hit the end of the books, they completely lost all ability to pace (possibly because they'd never had to DO it before), so they wound up doing 2-3 seasons worth of just dicking around and accomplishing nothing of substance - until they suddenly realized they had to end things, so they rushed to an ending they put almost no effort into actually justifying.

Things might have been better if they'd actually taken the full season HBO offered them instead of the half-assed half-season they wanted so they could get it over with and move on to the huge money deal Disney was offering them to make a Star Wars series (which fell through anyway), but honestly, they were so inept at the seasons they DID do that it probably would have been terrible regardless of whether or not they had a full season, three full seasons, or a dozen full seasons more.

They always talked about how George RR Martin told them how the story was supposed to end, so all they had to do was bridge the gap between where the books ended and the end of the show themselves, but what no one seems to have realized is that they were completely incapable of actually doing it.

Ironically, they probably would have been better off if they'd just ignored the intended ending and gone with one of their own where Dany becomes the Queen in the South while Jon becomes King in the North or something. With Tyrion as some sort of ambassador/advisor between the two, because those are the only three characters most of the audience ever cared about anyway.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

better off if they'd just ignored the intended ending and gone with one of their own

Yeah, almost anything honestly would have been better. Having Danny be Queen in the south while john becomes king in the north, but then you see Danny is pregnant (so their child will unite them), would have been perfect.

Something...anything.....ANYTHING....would have been better than Jamie's ending *sigh*. I would have loved to see him die defending Breyanna or something like that (possibly against the Lich King).

So many things were just blah in the last season, and the ending was very unsatisfying, even Arya, really kinda just didn't fill out/finish her role (was disapointing). I would have LOVED to see her kill Cercie basically (in some way/manner or form).

Almost anyone could have had a more rewarding ending than we got, it was just about the ultimate letdown (one of my worst from cinima/games along with D3 and FFX-2 (until then every FF game had been awesome).

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Hell. Shes cool with fire anyway.

I nominate Hitler. I think hes rising in popularity, at least in the States, so itd be nice to know where he stands.

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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Ironically, they probably would have been better off if they'd just ignored the intended ending and gone with one of their own

I never thought about that way before, but they definitely should have just stuck with their own new ideas to the end.

No one would have blamed them since everyone knew they had separated from the original text long ago anyway

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ParanoidObsessive posted...

They were fine when they were mostly just following the existing books, one book per season (more or less), and not having to come up with their own material or pacing.

Once they hit the end of the books, they completely lost all ability to pace (possibly because they'd never had to DO it before), so they wound up doing 2-3 seasons worth of just dicking around and accomplishing nothing of substance - until they suddenly realized they had to end things, so they rushed to an ending they put almost no effort into actually justifying.

Things might have been better if they'd actually taken the full season HBO offered them instead of the half-assed half-season they wanted so they could get it over with and move on to the huge money deal Disney was offering them to make a Star Wars series (which fell through anyway), but honestly, they were so inept at the seasons they DID do that it probably would have been terrible regardless of whether or not they had a full season, three full seasons, or a dozen full seasons more.

They always talked about how George RR Martin told them how the story was supposed to end, so all they had to do was bridge the gap between where the books ended and the end of the show themselves, but what no one seems to have realized is that they were completely incapable of actually doing it.

Ironically, they probably would have been better off if they'd just ignored the intended ending and gone with one of their own where Dany becomes the Queen in the South while Jon becomes King in the North or something. With Tyrion as some sort of ambassador/advisor between the two, because those are the only three characters most of the audience ever cared about anyway.

Yeah I think the fact that they were attempting to continue and end a story in such a short span of that a genius writer carefully took years to craft is something people overlooked hoping it would work out somehow. It was doomed to be disappointing from the beginning so they threw together a story and shoehorned in some mostly disappointing fan service hoping that would be enough

wolfy42 posted...

Something...anything.....ANYTHING....would have been better than Jamie's ending

This really was the worst part of the entire show. Such a disappointing end to a pretty great story arc. I honestly can't believe that was the best they could come up with

if martin hadn't been such a lazy fatass he could have finished the books loooong ago, then they wouldn't have had to create seasons based on outlines and their own ideas.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QpNFqg99dwo
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I half imagine she'd feel more at home in hell than heaven given all the fire and what not.

wolfy42 posted...

Wolverine

He's already been, so that's cheating.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

They always talked about how George RR Martin told them how the story was supposed to end, so all they had to do was bridge the gap between where the books ended and the end of the show themselves, but what no one seems to have realized is that they were completely incapable of actually doing it.

If that was his intended ending, it's pretty lousy.

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wolfy42 posted...

Yeah, almost anything honestly would have been better. Having Danny be Queen in the south while john becomes king in the north, but then you see Danny is pregnant (so their child will unite them), would have been perfect.

I feel like they were trapped with that - can't really have the two marry and rule together (which would be the ideal conclusion) because modern audiences are a bit uncomfortable about the whole incest thing. Same problem with them having a kid.

You could probably get away with it in the books, but in mainstream TV a lot of the audience would probably be squicked by it.

The alternative is to kill one or the other (or both) off, but that alienates a lot of the fanbase. So if you're going for a fan-friendly ending you probably have to go for one where Dany either rules the South while Jon rules the North, or you have a scene where Dany says something like "All my life, I've only ever wanted to be queen in Westeros because I believed it was my duty - my family's responsibility and right. But now I have a nephew with a stronger claim to the throne, who knows and loves the land better than I ever could. And I've realized I don't want the throne or the crown - I already have some of my own." And then she peaces out to go rule her conquered lands in Essos and turns them into Happy Sunshine Rainbow Land with no more slavery or poverty or problematic thinking. Whee!

Either that, or I'd probably just have Dany help fight off the threat from the North (which should have been WAAAAAY more significant, probably like at least 2 seasons worth of battles and magic significant), but she dies in the process and Jon sort of becomes the General of the Armies of Mankind by default, inheriting Dany's warriors (and maybe one of the dragons, if you go with the "the dragon has three heads" stuff) and the warriors of Westeros united under the lore of the Night Watch to unleash 17 kinds of holy hell on all the ice monsters, with Jon getting the throne in the end more by acclaim and glory than simply right of blood.

That last one is also good because it fits the tone of the series - the girl who has always wanted to be queen dies before she ever sees the throne (or the capital), while the boy who never wanted to be in charge of anything is forced to be king against his will, to keep the peace and end civil war. Neither get what they want, and Jon winds up on a throne he doesn't want because he is truly his father(Ned)'s son, and he can't stop putting honor and duty before personal desires. He will be king because he MUST be, not because he WANTS to be.

And then Sam gets to be the Hand, because of course he does.

Or Sam gets the Grand Maester spot while Tyrion gets the Hand (again). Though it feels more fitting for Tyrion to get Master of Coin. Or maybe even go full irony and give him Varys' old seat.



wolfy42 posted...

Something...anything.....ANYTHING....would have been better than Jamie's ending *sigh*. I would have loved to see him die defending Breyanna or something like that (possibly against the Lich King).

It doesn't even make sense with the lore, considering it's kind of a huge deal that Cersei is supposed to get offed by a brother, not falling masonry.

"When your tears have drowned you, the little brother shall wrap his hands around your throat and choke the life from you" doesn't really offer much wiggle room for interpretation.

Though that was the easiest fix of all. Telling Brienne that he doesn't want or deserve redemption? Riding back to the capital? Riding back to Cersei? All still works. Have him show up, Cersei is overjoyed to see him. They wind up together in one of her private rooms... and then he chokes her to death. He's finally broken by everything that's happened, accepts that so much of what's gone wrong is her fault, and that there'll never be peace so long as she lives. So he reaches back into himself, to the time when he was still an honorable knight who was willing to sacrifice everything to do the right thing no matter how much it cost him, no matter how much he might hate himself for it.

Thus, the Kingslayer becomes a Kinslayer. A Queenslayer.

Then you either have him calmly accept death (suicide fall off a tower, letting the guards murder-stab him, falling on his own sword, etc), or you have him wander off, possibly leaving Westeros entirely, becoming either a hermit or a wanderer who fades into obscurity like a myth.

Or, you COULD have him just wind up with Brienne in the end, but that does start to feel too much like the sort of "and then they all lived happily after" fantasy that Martin was sort of deliberately writing counter to the entire time, with a darker (and in many ways more realistic) story. Sometimes, the heroes don't get the happy ending.
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having a separate kingdom at the end just undoes everything they fought for to unite all the kingdoms.

other kingdoms will want their independance again
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Krazy_Kirby posted...

if martin hadn't been such a lazy fatass he could have finished the books loooong ago, then they wouldn't have had to create seasons based on outlines and their own ideas.

Why would he? He HATES the series, mainly because he kind of hates the fanbase that grew up around them. And the fact that they basically eclipse the entire rest of his career, including all the things he's actually much more proud of.

He's long since reached the point where he only really publishes a new book when he needs the money. And the success of the series and the merch and the TV show means he'll probably never need to publish another book in the series again. He's got so much fuck you money right now he has no reason to ever put out the next book, let alone the one after that.

He also has standing orders that when he dies, all of his notes get burned and no one else tries to finish the books using his notes (ie, how The Wheel of Time books got finished). So he's mostly just enjoying the money and opportunities the success of the series has given him, and he's waiting to die so he can spite the asshole fans one last time.



Zeus posted...

If that was his intended ending, it's pretty lousy.

Ehh, if you were reading LotR, and you were about halfway through The Two Towers, and then I was like "Yeah, it all ends with Sam and Frodo making it to Mount Doom and then Gollum bites his finger off and accidentally drops the Ring", that would seem like a pretty bullshit ending, too.

Now think about a universe where Tolkien had died before finishing writing the books, and all someone had was Fellowship, the first couple chapters of Two Towers, and the last chapter of Return of the King. And then an Internet fanfic writer took it on themselves to write the rest of the trilogy. It probably wouldn't come across as a legendary and ridiculously influential epic.

Same with Star Wars. Imagine if Empire stops at the moment they get to Bespin, and then the scriptwriters from The Asylum or Troma had to write everything after that part leading up to the scene where Vader turns and tosses Palpy.

HOW you get to an ending matters nearly as much as the ending itself. A well-written build with Dany slowly crumbling over time and better-written motivation and dialogue on the part of characters like Jon and Tyrion would have made even the same ending much better than it was. Basically, you have to EARN your ending - and the GoT crew really didn't.

Most of the last season was them breaking all of their characters to try and ram all their square pegs into round holes to get to an ending they'd completely failed to work towards. THAT'S what makes it so bad. Not simply "Oh, okay, Dany's dead and Jon's fucking off", but the fact that so much of what led up to that point was also incredibly stupid.

Even aside from the fact that the books have more plot points that could potentially pay off (which were cut out of the TV show entirely - Aegon VI/Griff is pretty significant, for one thing), presumably Martin (who was a damned good writer for decades even before he wrote the first ASoIaF book) would actually do a much better job of setting up the pieces for the ending he'd intended.

And to be fair, that's even assuming they DID use the ending he told them. I don't remember him ever doing an interview or anything afterward where he was like "Yep, that was my ending." It's hard to know what they might have changed (presumably for the worse).

Not that any of this really matters, though, because he's never going to finish the books. So the GoT ending essentially IS the book ending, because it's the only ending we're ever going to get short of fanfiction.
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Can I nominate Link from Zelda?
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She was a terrible, pointless character in the first place, and not only does she apparently get worse but becomes the actual worst thing to ever happen to Westeros.

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Rotpar posted...

She was a terrible, pointless character in the first place, and not only does she apparently get worse but becomes the actual worst thing to ever happen to Westeros.

cerci would have been worse, her first sob would have been far worse
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How could Cersei be worse? Dany destroyed King's Landing with an invincible superweapon. She deliberately hunted and killed the citizens en masse. That's simply beyond Cersei's capabilities and continued warfare not only pales in comparison but is also functionally normal.

"Oh no, Cersei declared war on the Riverlands again and burned down the half-completed huts and half-seeded farms. Her goons brutalized what was left of our women and children yet again. Man, she sucks."

Versus the barbarian queen who leads her armies of barbarians and slaves...nah, she doesn't even actually need any of them. She flies and destroys everything she can see and nothing can stop her--and killing is the end goal.

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Rotpar posted...

How could Cersei be worse? Dany destroyed King's Landing with an invincible superweapon. She deliberately hunted and killed the citizens en masse. That's simply beyond Cersei's capabilities and continued warfare not only pales in comparison but is also functionally normal.

"Oh no, Cersei declared war on the Riverlands again and burned down the half-completed huts and half-seeded farms. Her goons brutalized what was left of our women and children yet again. Man, she sucks."

Versus the barbarian queen who leads her armies of barbarians and slaves...nah, she doesn't even actually need any of them. She flies and destroys everything she can see and nothing can stop her--and killing is the end goal.

Because that's from the show and not the books.
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Realistically speaking, Cersei in the books probably winds up dead very soon.

The show turned her into the central villain because viewers loved her as the bad guy, and D+D were very much up for pandering to the audience at the expense of the plot (which is probably a large part of why they fucked up the Dany, Jon, and Tyrion storylines). But the books were almost certainly setting up the pieces for her to fall long before Dany even sets foot in Westeros, with characters who aren't even IN the show moving more into the southern political antagonist role, at the same time as the northern supernatural storyline keeps growing in importance.

Cersei in the books is almost completely self-destructing, and has almost no support left to actually listen to anything she might command or demand. She can be as crazy as she wants to be, but it won't matter if whoever's left just tosses her into a cell to rot.

If anything, this might actually be the REAL ending the "little brother" prophecy is heading for. Jaime winds up choking Cersei to death, but he doesn't do it in anger or disgust - he does it out of mercy. All of her dreams collapsing, all of her children dying, her family broken, even her beloved brother turning against her - all of that would be more than enough to break her mind forever and leave her a ruined wreck. Jaime might kill her just to put her out of her misery.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Dany becomes the Queen in the South while Jon becomes King in the North or something. With Tyrion as some sort of ambassador/advisor between the two, because those are the only three characters most of the audience ever cared about anyway.

Arya?

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