Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 357: Insurrection Lasting More than 4 Hours

(+) Yeah! (+)

masterplum posted...

but one year in prison is still a hell of a consequence for hopping in a window someone else broke

Is it?

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Mmm, yeah if people stole stuff I would think 3 years or so is more appropriate.

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Jakyl25 posted...

I dont really support prison for most of these people instead of community service, but just to clarify, that guy did steal stuff

If it weren't the Capitol, I might agree with you, but like... when you target buildings of high political value I think that should be a severe aggravating factor. Like it's inherently a national security risk and literally the definition of terrorism.

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https://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/status/1347620549804089351?s=21

Profiles in cowardice

Cant punish Trump because then his base will get stronger!
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I don't think I agree. This mob could have literally killed the first three members of the presidential line of succession and a large fraction of Contress (and even if most individuals raiding the Capitol would not have done that themselves, they were aiding and abetting people who would). We're at a high risk of people repeating this in the near future, and that needs to be very heavily discouraged.

I would maybe be fine with somebody like you describe pleading down to one year, but that being the max charge and having them plead down to two months or something just isn't gonna cut it here.

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xp1337 posted...

If it weren't the Capitol, I might agree with you, but like... when you target buildings of high political value I think that should be a severe aggravating factor. Like it's inherently a national security risk and literally the definition of terrorism.

Right but the punishment should fit the crime

Community service. Ankle monitors. Probation including monitored internet.

Like I honestly feel like the number of people who genuinely deserve to be in prison is extremely small compared to our prison population
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Jakyl25 posted...

Like I honestly feel like the number of people who genuinely deserve to be in prison is extremely small compared to our prison population

I would agree, I just happen to think that this is actually under the subset of crimes that actually deserves it and that slaps on the wrist are dangerous.

I mean, let's not mince words here, this is domestic terrorism.

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(To elaborate further: if just the members who actually wanted to harm Pence/Members of Congress raided the Capitol, there probably would have been few enough to stop them)

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LordoftheMorons posted...

This mob could have literally killed the first three members of the presidential line of succession and a large fraction of Contress

I 100% know that we are going to disagree here, but IMO their lives are not worth more than anyone elses.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

(To elaborate further: if just the members who actually wanted to harm Pence/Members of Congress raided the Capitol, there probably would have been few enough to stop them)

I dunno, a LOT of people were chanting Hang Mike Pence <_<
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Jakyl25 posted...

I 100% know that we are going to disagree here, but IMO their lives are not worth more than anyone elses.

Its not their lives intrinsically, its that killing them disrupts government function which has the potential to hurt a lot more people. Like if half of Congress was mowed down by some lunatic with a machine gun, that would have a very high likelihood of impacting our future pandemic response.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Its not their lives intrinsically, its that killing them disrupts government function which has the potential to hurt a lot more people. Like if half of Congress was mowed down by some lunatic with a machine gun, that would have a very high likelihood of impacting our future pandemic response.

Depends on which half
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Jakyl25 posted...

I 100% know that we are going to disagree here, but IMO their lives are not worth more than anyone elses.

Lives? No. Positions? Yes.

America as a nation would not have survived any of these people being killed. We would actually be on the brink of Civil War.

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Have we ever considered having every federally elected official name their designated successor in case of tragedy? Wouldnt have to serve out the rest of the term, just until the actual successor could be appointed or special elected or what have you
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Reuters poll shows 57% of Americans want Trump removed immediately: https://twitter.com/TimAeppel/status/1347764076986863620

Crosstab Selection by me:

Re: Removal
30% of all respondents prefer the 25th Amendment (47D/11R/28I)
14% Impeach + Remove (25D/5R/10I)
13% Resign (16D/8R/14I)

Overall for remove (88D/24R/52I)

60% of Republicans say that they Strongly/Somewhat/Lean Support Trump's actions around the events at the Capitol. (63% of Rs disapprove of Biden's, with 44% at strongly disapprove)

48% of Republicans approve of Cruz's actions around the same.

Given the list of Patriots/Concerned citizens/Fools/Criminals to describe lawmakers trying to block certification of the Electoral College, Republicans choose "Concerned citizens" with a plurality of 27% (Patriots + Concerned citizens at 49%) Dems and Independents select Fools as their plurality answer at 37% and 33% respectively.

Reuters sample was much less supportive of the insurrectionists than the previous polls FWIWs: 71% of Rs oppose them, though I don't know if it factors in but the Reuters poll question called them protesters)

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masterplum posted...

Going to be honest, if there isnt evidence that the people in the capitol didnt destroy, hurt or steal anything, one year in prison seems appropriate.

Like obviously lets lock up the rioters and bombers forever, but one year in prison is still a hell of a consequence for hopping in a window someone else broke

No. And the 1 year maximum is for the entering restricted grounds charge alone. (If determined there was no injury in doing so and/or weapons) on him.

I am expecting all these people to walk out of this with fines, but they should get the ten year minimum sentence Trump put into effect via executive order.

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https://twitter.com/petridishes/status/1347953751089426433?s=21

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I feel like the argument Ive seen going around from neocon/vanilla Republican Twitter that this was just a fringe extremist group dont paint all republicans with the same brush is undermined slightly by half of republicans going this is fine.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

I feel like the argument Ive seen going around from neocon/vanilla Republican Twitter that this was just a fringe extremist group dont paint all republicans with the same brush is undermined slightly by half of republicans going this is fine.

Literally every single prominent figure claiming this or back pedaling their take was cheering thus in until the moment they walked into the building. Anything past that is just reputation damage control.

Rudy Giuliani literally put out a video saying "When I said trial by combat, I meant between the mechanical parts of the voting machines and our investigators. We'll be combating the voting machines!"

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https://twitter.com/bradheath/status/1347952656652902402?s=21

At the request of the president

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These people are so, so stupid

https://twitter.com/willsommer/status/1347942437046661121?s=21

also

https://twitter.com/macfarlanenews/status/1347950816150351873?s=21

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Also, I feel like we somehow missed this in the chaos of Wednesday but one of the newly-elected Republican Congresswomen (IL-15) right before the insurrection was caught on camera and I'll let the tweet and video speak for itself: https://twitter.com/always_margot/status/1346578062700400647

She then "apologized" on Friday and by "apologized" I mean the standard "i apologized if you were offended and also the radical left is trying to twist my words" and throws in "I am very pro-Israel!" as some kind of defense

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https://twitter.com/brianbeutler/status/1347706710891384832?s=21

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Fuck these members of Congress (including MGT) too:

https://twitter.com/daniellamicaela/status/1347962573711421441?s=21

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https://twitter.com/grylxndr/status/1347960607941783556?s=21

Tell me if you think otherwise, but I dont think the Right genuinely believes a strong Democratic/Liberal opposition should exist.

Going off his history, Joe genuinely believes this shit.

but why??

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We need an opposition that's principled and strong.

ok but what does that have to do with the republican party

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Because Joe is a simpleton.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/grylxndr/status/1347960607941783556?s=21

Tell me if you think otherwise, but I dont think the Right genuinely believes a strong Democratic/Liberal opposition should exist.

Going off his history, Joe genuinely believes this shit.

but why??

Probably because the alternative is that Progressives gain influence without a far right party around and he doesn't want that

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It could be as simple as Joe trying to say he needs his opponents to be principled and he did the Joe Biden thing of sounding old and confused

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https://twitter.com/donie/status/1347962188892426241

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Biden just doesn't want there to be only one party. He does want there to be opposition of some kind.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Right but the punishment should fit the crime

Community service. Ankle monitors. Probation including monitored internet.

Like I honestly feel like the number of people who genuinely deserve to be in prison is extremely small compared to our prison population

I'm a pretty firm prison abolitionist, but if we're going to have prisons, these people are exactly who belongs in them. You don't begin abolition by letting these guys off the hook while Lanisha Bratcher is facing over 3 years for trying to vote bc she was mistakenly told she was eligible.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/grylxndr/status/1347960607941783556?s=21

Tell me if you think otherwise, but I dont think the Right genuinely believes a strong Democratic/Liberal opposition should exist.

Going off his history, Joe genuinely believes this shit.

but why??

He's kind of right, though. If we only had one political party, they'd become completely corrupt and incompetent. And neither the center nor left faction of the Democrats is strong enough to break off and replace the Republicans as the second major party. If we're going to be stuck with the GOP holding a major share of power, they need to stop being awful or more bad shit is gonna happen. Wishing they had no power won't change anything.
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I'm glad they finally caught Via Getty

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Yeah, one party systems are not great no matter how good of intentions they start out with.
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Xeybozn posted...

He's kind of right, though. If we only had one political party, they'd become completely corrupt and incompetent. And neither the center nor left faction of the Democrats is strong enough to break off and replace the Republicans as the second major party. If we're going to be stuck with the GOP holding a major share of power, they need to stop being awful or more bad shit is gonna happen. Wishing they had no power won't change anything.

Republicans are a fascist death cult masquerading as a political party. The Democrats are the party of everybody else. What we need is to break the power of the fascists and separate the conservative wing of the Democrats, your Joe Manchins and Kyrsten Sinemas of the world, from the progressive wing. *THOSE* are America's political parties that can govern. If any "principled Republicans" can be said to still exist, say Adam Kinzinger or the like, they can find a comfortable home in that new conservative party. But the GOP as an establishment must go.

EDIT: A one party system is what we have now.


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I'd prefer a 10 party system.

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I would absolutely love that, but the issue is Manchin and Sinema aren't far right enough for like 35% of Americans, at the absolute least. Some sort of far right party is destined to form regardless. It isn't a political party problem. It's an Americans problem.

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Saying we have a one party system now is silly and somewhat ignorant especially after the last week.

Democrats aren't perfect but there is a world of difference between what they want to do and what republicans want to do.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

I would absolutely love that, but the issue is Manchin and Sinema aren't far right enough for like 35% of Americans, at the absolute least. Some sort of far right party is destined to form regardless. It isn't a political party problem. It's an Americans problem.

This is why I said they need to be broken. I didn't say wish them away, fascists need to be afraid to espouse fascist views in the public square again. This is why you punch Nazis. This is why you send Nazis to jail for a long-ass time.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

Saying we have a one party system now is silly and somewhat ignorant especially after the last week.

Democrats aren't perfect but there is a world of difference between what they want to do and what republicans want to do.

I am not saying Republicans and Democrats are the same.

I'm saying Democrats are a political party and Republicans are a fascist death cult.

We can't have a two party system where we give one of those spots over to a fascist death cult.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

Some sort of far right party is destined to form regardless. It isn't a political party problem. It's an Americans problem

In small fairness to us, the far right has been rising all over the world recently.

MrGreenonion posted...

I am not saying Republicans and Democrats are the same.

I'm saying Democrats are a political party and Republicans are a fascist death cult.

We can't have a two party system where we give one of those spots over to a fascist death cult.

Oh duh. Sorry I'm bad at reading sometimes.

I withdraw my objections. Carry on!

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MrGreenonion posted...

We can't have a two party system where we give one of those spots over to a fascist death cult.

Yeah I think lost in how much attention has been given to McConnell and the Senate the last few years is that basically half or maybe even more Republican representatives in the House are batshit crazy.

Leafeon13N posted...

In small fairness to us, the far right has been rising all over the world recently.

And how many first-world countries are there where these far-right parties are basically guaranteed the support of 45% of voters?

This is the big problem for America. A huge part of the population supports this insanity so long as there are politicians willing to advocate for it.
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https://youtu.be/E6RguadlXS0

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i don't understand why we "need" a far-right party, and yet a left party is impossible

leftists settle for centrist democrats today. the right wingers can settle for right-leaning centrists

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I'd prefer a 10 party system.

Come live in my country...
On second thought maybe not right now.
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Xeybozn posted...

He's kind of right, though. If we only had one political party, they'd become completely corrupt and incompetent. And neither the center nor left faction of the Democrats is strong enough to break off and replace the Republicans as the second major party. If we're going to be stuck with the GOP holding a major share of power, they need to stop being awful or more bad shit is gonna happen. Wishing they had no power won't change anything.

If you stand up for what you believe in AND have the principles to not do shady shit to accomplish your goals, you shouldnt WANT an opposition party, thats just a thing that will happen.

Yes, a one party system will eventually be corrupt, but we have a two party system and its corrupt as fuck right now.

Valuing a strong opposition is just valuing a reference point to distinguish yourself when you have no strong beliefs of your own.

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banananor posted...

i don't understand why we "need" a far-right party, and yet a left party is impossible

leftists settle for centrist democrats today. the right wingers can settle for right-leaning centrists

also this


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