Board 8 > Kazuya Mishima in SSBU

(+) Yeah! (+)

I suppose believing that avoids disappointment.

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TomNook posted...

Kazuya also suffers in the same way that Incineroar and Piranha Plant did, in that the nights leading up to the reveal, there were very widespread and commonly believed false spoilers that got people hyped (I'm not referring to the false spoilers that happen all the time throughout the year). So when they ended up being false, it made a lot of people dissatisfied by what was actually revealed.

While fans can get too attached to leaks, Smash roster reveals would also benefit from not ending on wet farts. Incineroar/Ken/Piranha Plant, Byleth, and Kazuya would have been disappointing no matter what the leaks were.

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Hey now, I find Incineroar, Ken, and Kazuya much more interesting than the lame characters people want like Crash and Master Chief

Like, who actually wants Crash. I get people want him for the whole "look system mascots omg," but who actually wants Crash

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StealThisSheen posted...

Hey now, I find Incineroar, Ken, and Kazuya much more interesting than the lame characters people want like Crash and Master Chief

Like, who actually wants Crash. I get people want him for the whole "look system mascots omg," but who actually wants Crash

Independent of any other considerations, Crash is legitimately more popular than the first three, except maybe Ken.

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Nah, I'm sticking with the belief that people only want Crash because of what they think he represents, not because they actually like Crash.

Nobody likes Crash

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Apparently people who grew up playing Crash really like Crash.

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apparently people who grew up playing Crash didn't really like Crash but now that they're older and have mostly forgotten what the games were like they have a nostalgia for them

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StealThisSheen posted...

Nah, I'm sticking with the belief that people only want Crash because of what they think he represents, not because they actually like Crash.

Nobody likes Crash

woah...

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StealThisSheen posted...

Nah, I'm sticking with the belief that people only want Crash because of what they think he represents, not because they actually like Crash.

Nobody likes Crash

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/7256-division-3-round-1-crash-vs-cecil
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/7311-division-3-round-2-crash-vs-big-boss

Not amazing but not really bad either. Although, you aren't wrong that people are bandwagoning and making Crash seem more popular than he is.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Nah, I'm sticking with the belief that people only want Crash because of what they think he represents, not because they actually like Crash.

Nobody likes Crash

I like Crash more than most of the Smash roster, mate. Granted, I liked him less from Twinsanity through to Mind Over Mutants because he became a blabbering idiot, but he was great otherwise (especially in those old commercials).

Spyro does have the better personality though, but I attribute that partially because Crash is (somewhat) mute.

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Crash is a little bandwagoned but he's not Geno levels of bandwagoned, so I'm fine with it

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StealThisSheen posted...

people only want Crash because of what they think he represents,

wait...he doesn't represent Crash Bandicoot!?

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Also, in regards to the "people only want Crash because of what they think he represents" line, if you're referring to Sony, we already have 3 characters on the roster that are essentially PS1 reps (Snake, Cloud, Kazuya).

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paulg235 posted...

Also, in regards to the "people only want Crash because of what they think he represents" line, if you're referring to Sony, we already have 3 characters on the roster that are essentially PS1 reps (Snake, Cloud, Kazuya).

I'm obviously kidding with the "nobody likes Crash" stuff, but he's absolutely being bandwagoned because people see him as the PS1 mascot.

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StealThisSheen posted...

Hey now, I find Incineroar, Ken, and Kazuya much more interesting than the lame characters people want like Crash and Master Chief

Master Chief would be an amazing addition tbh. I'm not even like a big Halo fan but he'd fit Smash perfectly and there are so many interesting directions they could take his moveset.

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StealThisSheen posted...

I'm obviously kidding with the "nobody likes Crash" stuff, but he's absolutely being bandwagoned because people see him as the PS1 mascot.

Silly question. Even if this was 100% of the reason for his push, who the fuck cares?

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Are we forgetting that Crash just had a new well received game and a HD remaster of his first 3 games? There's a lot of people who like Crash and want him in Smash and they weren't even born when the PS1 games were popular.

If it was mostly bandwagoning why was there barely any demand for Crash before the N-Sane Trilogy? You never saw anyone ask for Crash in Smash for 3DS/WiiU

Also Dingodile would make an awesome Smash character but that wouldn't happen anytime soon. :(

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SSJSephirothGokuX123 posted...

If it was mostly bandwagoning why was there barely any demand for Crash before the N-Sane Trilogy? You never saw anyone ask for Crash in Smash for 3DS/WiiU

To be fair you didn't see hardly anybody asking for Crash until rather recently, which is why you can tell it's mostly bandwagoning. The N.Sane Trilogy has been out for four years yet Crash demand didn't pop up until like this second DLC pass.

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And also, this argument is kinda pointless, anyway. I'm not saying Crash would be a BAD addition. I'm also not saying he's ONLY a bandwagon character. I'm just saying I like several of the other DLC options much more than some of these heavy bandwagon characters that seem like people are arguing reasons for that basically include everything BUT "I like the character/they'd be fun." It's a personal opinion, is all.

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Still waiting for Rayman =(

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I have absolutely zero hype about this tekken guy. I get that they want to throw their protagonist in here

But he's just boring, and i wouldn't even consider him visually iconic like ryu/ken or the mk ninjas

And yeah, all of the mascot candidates that tried to "make it" on the playstation 1 felt a bit off. I think spyro was the best of the bunch

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That's because Crash 4 was rather recently announced and released. N-Sane also came out on Switch in 2018 which is still pretty recent in Nintendo terms.

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SSJSephirothGokuX123 posted...

That's because Crash 4 was rather recently announced and released. N-Sane also came out on Switch in 2018 which is still pretty recent in Nintendo terms.

Crash 4 kinda bombed and sold notably less than N. Sane Trilogy, though. It doesn't seem like that'd stoke fire more than the Trilogy itself would've. Likewise, Trilogy still came out even on Switch a good 2 years before the big Crash push started.

Like said, I'm not saying he'd be a bad addition, but he's definitely a bandwagon pick at this point.

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The N. Sane Trilogy has a lot of nostalgia going for it and was 3 updated games for a good price, and it sold freaking 10 million! Selling less than that isn't anything to be ashamed of. Crash 4 still sold over a million and is as well regarded as the Naughty Dog trilogy (some even call it the best Crash game!)

I really don't see it as bandwagoning moreso that Crash has finally redeemed himself after a long string of the lackluster 2000's non-ND games and 12 year dormancy. Crash 4 was basically the Mega Man 9 or Sonic Generations of his series.

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Eh, I don't know if Crash 4 is something to tout. N. Sane Trilogy did fantastic numbers, that can't be denied, but it literally took over a month for Crash 4 to sell what Trilogy did in 1 day. 10 million to under 1 million is horrible retention. Near 1 million on its own isn't something to scoff at, but the drop from Trilogy suggests that people went ham over Trilogy from nostalgia moreso than an actual huge interest in Crash.

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i'm indifferent really. i'm just impressed at what we had initially and truthfully whoever was/wasn't added didn't really leave any impression on me.

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Most people think Crash 4's lower sales was because it was 60 bucks at launch while the insane Trilogy was 40 which which is why it sold so much better. I don't think the lower sales have anything to do with the quality of the game itself or Crash having declining popularity (because 10 million is still 10 million.)

Crash 4 seems to have legs though because the price has dropped so more people are picking it up.

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Crash 4's sales were low enough that the dev team was immediately shuttered into Call of Duty afterwards, so

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Oh, I don't necessarily think the lower sales have anything to do with the quality of the game. I think the fact it barely got just under 1/10th of the sales of Trilogy suggests Crash was a nostalgia beast but then people got their fill from Trilogy and didn't actually care to pick up a new game nearly as much as it looked like they were going to.

Though now that we're having this debate, it makes me kinda want Crash in Smash a bit more since we're very likely not getting another game for a very long time, if ever, since Crash 4's performance caused Activision to nuke those studios into support for CoD.

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I wonder if it would have sold better if Naughty Dog made Crash 4.

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i'm just sad nobody likes wrath of cortex and it all got retconned

i liked wrath of cortex

A lot of fourth entries and later sequels sell only a fraction of the original trilogy though, that's nothing unique to Crash, especially considering Crash had stigma of bad games in the 2000's and was dead for a decade making people reluctant to buy a new game if they didn't hear word of mouth that Crash 4 is good. And price is a major factor, it's easier for a casual parent to pick up a 3 pack for 40 or less for nostalgia or to introduce their kids to Crash than shell out 60 for 1 game that's basically the same as the other 3 you can get for less. Besides a million isn't obscure by Smash Bros. standards since Mega Man, Castlevania and SNK games only have a handful of million sellers.

Toys for Bob is still around, I don't think it was the low sales that caused that moreso Activision sucks in general. I think it's too early to call TfB dead or Crash 4 a sales failure especially since it came out just a few months ago on Switch/PS5/XSX so it can still rack up a million or two on those platforms. Besides even if Crash was a sales failure and he's the last season 2 character it was already decided long ago. If he's not but season 3 is announced he'll still be one of the most expected characters because Crash games have legs.

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I mean it's not like Terry is selling games

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UF8 posted...

i'm just sad nobody likes wrath of cortex and it all got retconned

i liked wrath of cortex

I liked Wrath of Cortex and think the hate for that game is overblown (it's better than several other Crash games), but I also completely understand why most people don't like it.

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SSJSephirothGokuX123 posted...

Toys for Bob is still around, I don't think it was the low sales that caused that moreso Activision sucks in general. I think it's too early to call TfB dead or Crash 4 a sales failure

We know for a fact they laid people from TfB off despite saying they didn't because the people tweeted about it. We also know people left because they didn't like the new "creative direction" it was going in for the same reason. We also know TfB is effectively now a CoD dev team. And even if it reverts back, it's not the same. We also know they did this immediately after Crash 4's first sales numbers came in and were found to be disappointing.

I don't know what other conclusion there is to draw, dude.

We can conclusively call Crash 4 a sales failure because they drew their expectations based on what Trilogy sold, and 4 barely hit 10% of it, if that.

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I was quite happy! It might have influenced the pick of Kazuya that he was the main character in the original, but it also makes the most sense looking at the most recent Tekken game. At least it would be him or Heihachi and Kazuya definitely makes the most sense going forward. Using the devil gene might also have tipped the scale. I don't think it's surprising he was the one picked.

Crash 4 wasn't hyped anywhere up until its release to the extend the remade trilogy was either. Without a doubt less than 10% of the same amount of promotion and hype. Crash being asked a lot for now definitely started by people loving those games, most likely the ones that played and lived the fourth to. Of course it bandwagoned, almost everyone does and Crash is pretty respected so he's easy to get behind as a "yeah, he could work" character. The demand having grown probably has more to do with his recent relevance making him more likely. Count me in on the people that would love him because I loves his games back then and now and the new one and he's a likeable lead that I think has a good chance and could be fun to build a moveset on.

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It would have been funny if Heihachi was chosen, just so we could finally have a character who appears in both Smash and Playstation All Stars. Kratos is on my Smash wanted list too, but really any first-party Playstation character will do, and he's arguably the most iconic, and therefore best choice for Smash.

I'm not surprised Crash 4 sold less than N. Sane Trilogy. As has been said, most people only bought N. Sane for nostalgia, and had their fill after that between nostalgia and the difficulty, which ranged between "Harder than I remember" and "Harder than Dark Souls". It also released in the summer, when there was no notable competition for months. Add in the bargain price on top, and N. Sane was a perfect storm of factors for a hit. Crash 4 turned the difficulty up even further, which was a fun challenge but killed the long-term prospects for the series.

I wanted Crash in Smash before wanting Crash in Smash was cool! I thought he'd been heavily requested for a while, so imagine my surprise when I just found out today that, according to the Smash fandom, he's now a Wimbly-Bimbly or Crunko-Funko or whatever and you're not supposed to want him any more.

Even before Scrimblo Bimblo, I think people would attack Crash for being a Cereal Mascot.
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StealThisSheen posted...

We know for a fact they laid people from TfB off despite saying they didn't because the people tweeted about it. We also know people left because they didn't like the new "creative direction" it was going in for the same reason. We also know TfB is effectively now a CoD dev team. And even if it reverts back, it's not the same. We also know they did this immediately after Crash 4's first sales numbers came in and were found to be disappointing.

I don't know what other conclusion there is to draw, dude.

Activision also fucked over Vicarious Visions and sent them to the Call of Duty mines even though they just released Tony Hawk Pro Skater 1&2 HD and it was huge hit so I don't believe that Crash 4's sales is the sole reason TfB got damaged. Especially since Crash 4 isn't even a year old yet and just released on Switch/PS5/XSX consoles. It's more believable that Activision's higher ups just wants more of that CoD profit and is willing to neglect their other IPs to shift people they own to make more CoD. With that creative direction reasoning it's no wonder people are leaving when they go from the bouncy and colorful Crash and Spyro games to bland grey CoD.

StealThisSheen posted...

We can conclusively call Crash 4 a sales failure because they drew their expectations based on what Trilogy sold, and 4 barely hit 10% of it, if that.

You are aware we're talking about a collection that sold 10 million right? Hitting a million in less than a year is still really good for a 3D platformer, especially a non-Nintendo one. 3D Sonic and Ratchet and Clank games tend to sell 1-2 million and that's like the best for non-Nintendo platformer these days. If Activision sees it as a sales failure it's more so they're so used to heavy profits from CoD than anything because almost any other company would be content with a platformer that sold a million.

And besides, selling over 10 million is fucking INSANE numbers. How many franchises in Smash can even say they have a game that sold over 10 million. Some of them don't even have 10 million lifetime sales. Hell look at Capcom's platinum titles

https://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/finance/million.html

Their company's second best selling game is only 9 million!

It's really belittling to keep saying Crash 4 only sold 10% of the trilogy because that collection sold way, way better than anyone expected. It's like calling Super Mario RPG a flop because it only sold a fraction of what Super Mario All Stars did. And yeah as pointed out the Trilogy had better timing and less competition and more promotion from Sony.


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SSJSephirothGokuX123 posted...

Activision also fucked over Vicarious Visions and sent them to the Call of Duty mines even though they just released Tony Hawk Pro Skater 1&2 HD and it was huge hit so I don't believe that Crash 4's sales is the sole reason TfB got damaged. Especially since Crash 4 isn't even a year old yet and just released on Switch/PS5/XSX consoles. It's more believable that Activision's higher ups just wants more of that CoD profit and is willing to neglect their other IPs to shift people they own to make more CoD. With that creative direction reasoning it's no wonder people are leaving when they go from the bouncy and colorful Crash and Spyro games to bland grey CoD.

Uh, Vicarious Visions actually got moved OFF of CoD and became a Blizzard game dev, and several of their employees were actually promoted within Blizzard. VV was effectively rewarded.

As for the rest, you seem to be misunderstanding the point.

If Crash were a game in a new series, 1 million sales would be fantastic. It wasn't, though. They had much higher expectations for it because of the circumstances of Trilogy selling so well. When they saw how well Trilogy sold, they thought they had a sales juggernaut on their hands in Crash. They did not. They had a nostalgia juggernaut, and 90% of those 10 million sales literally decided "You know what? This is enough. We don't need a new Crash." However you slice that, that looks bad. It's going to be incredibly disappointing when the Trilogy gave such high hopes.

You can't just look at Crash 4's sales in a vacuum, you've got to consider expectations. Activision is not hurting for games that can sell 1 million copies, not by a long shot. They thought they had gold in bringing Crash back and found out very quickly that they didn't. 1 million sales (Do we actually have a source on it actually hitting 1 million? All I can find is that they stopped giving sales data once it took 2 months for it to sell what Trilogy did in one day.) on its own is great. 1 million sales when you're setting expectations based on the previous game selling 10 million is not great. That's a worse than worst case scenario kind of thing, because it requires them outright saying "Yo, it didn't sell 50% of the last one. It didn't sell 40%, or 30%. It didn't sell 20%. It barely even sold 10% of the last one." Nobody goes in with a game that sells 10 million and thinks the next direct game in the series is going to sell less than 10% of that. If they thought that, they wouldn't have made it.

Yes, Trilogy selling 10 million was phenomenal, but it ended up being a bad thing for Crash overall because it gave Activision hopes and expectations that proved to be unobtainable. They didn't just move the dev team to another game, they straight up gutted it. They stopped talking about Crash 4 all together almost immediately and haven't released sales data since. All signs point to Crash 4 being a failure for what was expected of it.

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He's another pick I'm not mad about (I can't think of anybody I actually WOULD be mad about, mind) but I also don't really care. At this point I want something new and interesting mechanically since I'm not likely to get any characters I care about, and I'm not convinced we're getting that here. Which, fair, we have like 80 characters, they can't all be super unique, but I kinda feel like I could've skipped the second pass, and probably will skip a hypothetical third. But for the record I want more Lin Lins and Piranha Plants and fewer Kazumas and Terries, personally.

also I keep somehow managing to misread him as Kazuma Kiryu AND Goro Majima and making myself sad

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StealThisSheen posted...

They had a nostalgia juggernaut, and 90% of those 10 million sales literally decided "You know what? This is enough. We don't need a new Crash."

That's not true, people were craving a new Crash in vein of the original games after how well the Trilogy was made, but Crash 4 had issues with timing and price. Even people on social media who got review copies of Crash 4 like SomeCallMeJohhny who had gushed about how good the game was said the game was a hard sell for 60 bucks, thus leading to a lot of people who wanted the game would wait on a price drop. It was also released in one of the pandemic's worst waves when a lot of people didn't have funds to spare. On top of being overshadowed by other holiday games and the new systems coming out, when it should have taken advantaged of and had been a launch game on PS5 at least. No Switch/PC version at launch either despite the Switch version of the Trilogy being one of the best selling.

If the game was 50 or somehow 40 on launch it would have sold like hotcakes.

StealThisSheen posted...

(Do we actually have a source on it actually hitting 1 million? All I can find is that they stopped giving sales data once it took 2 months for it to sell what Trilogy did in one day.)

Using trophy and achievement tracking it was estimated that game sold over a million on Xbone and PS4 recently. And the PS5/XSX/Switch versions are still early. Also the mobile game seems to have also boosted sales for game as well.
https://twitter.com/MatPiscatella/status/1376851612606504970

Crash games also have legs because the character is so recognizable, the trilogy didn't sell 10 million overnight y'know. It took about two years to get those numbers. Even his bad non-beat 'em up games in the 2000's sold over a million so it would be a huge shock if 4 didn't.

StealThisSheen posted...

1 million sales when you're setting expectations based on the previous game selling 10 million is not great. That's a worse than worst case scenario kind of thing, because it requires them outright saying "Yo, it didn't sell 50% of the last one. It didn't sell 40%, or 30%. It didn't sell 20%. It barely even sold 10% of the last one." Nobody goes in with a game that sells 10 million and thinks the next direct game in the series is going to sell less than 10% of that. If they thought that, they wouldn't have made it.

That's more of Activison's fault for not doing their research. Even in his prime Crash was a 6~ million seller, he's never been a 10 million consistent seller. And it takes time to build up those numbers. Plus they should have taken the post PS1 Crash stigma into consideration why the sales would be lower, why do you think Toys for Bob made that quip with the light blue mask about how Crash and Coco only beat Cortex 3 times? A new Crash game was going to have an underdog factor no matter how good it was.

StealThisSheen posted...

They stopped talking about Crash 4 all together almost immediately and haven't released sales data since. All signs point to Crash 4 being a failure for what was expected of it.

I think that's more due to Crash 4 not having DLC and waiting on the later versions of the game and mobile game boosts before they start showing the full data. Crash 4 is one of those very rare modern games that felt complete out of box and didn't need DLC (which nowadays is mostly cut content due to being rushed) so there's basically nothing to really bring up about the game itself. And they are planning something for Crash's 25th anniversary so they haven't given up completely on him, they wouldn't be doing that if 4 was the failure you make it out to be.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CPld4kWLuOm/?hl=en

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SSJSephirothGokuX123 posted...

That's more of Activison's fault for not doing their research. Even in his prime Crash was a 6~ million seller, he's never been a 10 million consistent seller.

I doubt they expected it to be a 10 million seller, but they reasonably expected it to be more than 1 million. And I'm still not fully convinced it sold a million since Activision typically tweets when games do that. They did it for Tony Hawk, but have been extremely silent on Crash 4.

As for Switch/PS5/etc., while it's true it broke back into the NPD top 20 for March (it was 65th in February), which was the release month for those, it only barely did, and then it fell back out of it in April and all indications are that sales are not good.

You can keep believing whatever you want, but the facts very much suggest that Crash 4 was a failure based on reasonable expectations.

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That being said, the series isn't completely dead, as they did imply something for the anniversary. If it's Crash in Smash, that's probably not great news for the series. If it's an actual game, it's very likely not mainline. Another Racing game could be possible, since that sold very well, too, but more likely it's the rumored PvP "Wumpa League" thing which, honestly, I don't think anybody wants, but it's Activision so it's probably most likely.

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Why would Crash in smash be bad news?

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Announcing a new Crash game means there are at least plans to keep making Crash games. Crash being added to Smash is nice but guarantees nothing about the future of the series.
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Yeah, to be clear I'm not saying Crash in Smash is bad on its own. I'm saying if their only anniversary announcement is Crash in Smash, that doesn't look good for the future of the series, since an anniversary like this is when you'd want to announce games if you're making them, even if they're far off.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMy8Ah4eQ8g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-eQJ8HCg4I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4xMxN_Ttt0

getting all the (probably) different versions because why not

(it's about 6 hours away)