Board 8 > I can still ignore preferred pronouns if they are Fae/Faer right

(+) Yeah! (+)

I saw that today and couldn't stop rolling my eyes

I mean it's not a pronoun if it only applies to one person, that completely defeats the purpose of a pronoun. It's more like a nickname

MZero posted...

I mean it's not a pronoun if it only applies to one person, that completely defeats the purpose of a pronoun. It's more like a nickname

No, under pronouns they (fae) listed Fae/Faer

What are those?

Something about fairies or elves.

n

Sounds like pronouns to ignore at your peril

@HanOfTheNekos

You can ignore

masterplum posted...

No, under pronouns they (fae) listed Fae/Faer

I get that, I'm saying they are mistaken listing that as a pronoun

Sounds like you're not up to the exciting linguistic challenge of using faer pronouns correctly

My actual, non-snarky answer is the following:

The validity of someone using a neopronoun that's unique only to them is a matter of debate in the queer community that badly frustrates the small-but-growing minority of people who wish they could use them without being judged for it. I don't really get it, myself, but pretty much the last thing that I would ever want to do is have a conversation about it with someone who insists on being a dismissive jerk about the idea, rather than open-minded and open-hearted for people who want to expand their gender expression in this way, even if I do ultimately kind of feel like the idea of substituting any string of characters for a pronoun is sort of an unwieldy way to treat pronouns. So, like... my recommendation is to be open-minded about the idea because it might really make that person's day? Why not give it a try? Worth a shot. If you ultimately revert to they/them because it's too confusing, the reality of it is that you're probably not going to get called out on this because so few people are willing to play ball with even the most well-known neopronouns, but be mean about it to them and I will come over and roundhouse kick you in the face. or well I'll try and fail and then I'll tell you off probably.

Paratroopa1 posted...

My actual, non-snarky answer is the following:

The validity of someone using a neopronoun that's unique only to them is a matter of debate in the queer community that badly frustrates the small-but-growing minority of people who wish they could use them without being judged for it. I don't really get it, myself, but pretty much the last thing that I would ever want to do is have a conversation about it with someone who insists on being a dismissive jerk about the idea, rather than open-minded and open-hearted for people who want to expand their gender expression in this way, even if I do ultimately kind of feel like the idea of substituting any string of characters for a pronoun is sort of an unwieldy way to treat pronouns. So, like... my recommendation is to be open-minded about the idea because it might really make that person's day? Why not give it a try? Worth a shot. If you ultimately revert to they/them because it's too confusing, the reality of it is that you're probably not going to get called out on this because so few people are willing to play ball with even the most well-known neopronouns, but be mean about it to them and I will come over and roundhouse kick you in the face. or well I'll try and fail and then I'll tell you off probably.

Yeah They/Them is about as far as I am willing to go. I'll they/them someone like that but if they take offense I honestly would probably just not want to be around that person any more because I feel like at that point you are undermining people who legitimately want to be labeled a different pronoun from their sex

great

it's one of those things that would probably annoy me if i had just met them, but after i knew them for a while it wouldn't be a big deal

I don't really get people who take hardline stances on this. Just call people what they want to be called, what does it even matter? Why does it bother you? Arguing "No, I will only go as far as ___/___" is acting like you think you're conceding something in the first place, which is kind of a jerky place to start from to begin with.

I feel like it's almost certainly going to get more common moving forward, not less, so regardless of how stupid it is you may want to make your peace with it

masterplum posted...

at that point you are undermining people who legitimately want to be labeled a different pronoun from their sex

if only there was some way to ask trans people what they thought

You can and should.

StealThisSheen posted...

I don't really get people who take hardline stances on this. Just call people what they want to be called, what does it even matter? Why does it bother you? Arguing "No, I will only go as far as ___/___" is acting like you think you're conceding something in the first place, which is kind of a jerky place to start from to begin with.

I'm pretty sure Plum is super pro MAGA so it explains alot

Theyre called neopronouns and its pretty silly. I mean whatever makes them happy I guess. They/Them is great! I love my nonbinary folks. But fae and zhir I mean by all means I dont want to be a jerk but I promise you not all trans people are like this. Its a very small subset of folks within the trans community only. I dont wanna step on anyones happiness personally as a trans person myself but my they/them partner haaaaates neopronouns. lol

Punnyz posted...

I'm pretty sure Plum is super pro MAGA so it explains alot

Hes not, hes more of a neo-lib centrist.

Anyway, I dont even get how fae works as a pronoun, its just a noun. Ill call anyone anything they like, but its going to take genuine practice to use nouns as pronouns for most people.

StealThisSheen posted...

I don't really get people who take hardline stances on this. Just call people what they want to be called, what does it even matter? Why does it bother you? Arguing "No, I will only go as far as ___/___" is acting like you think you're conceding something in the first place, which is kind of a jerky place to start from to begin with.

i think it bothers me because it strikes me as narcissistic? like prounouns are this sort of utilitarian generalized concept, but this person thinks theyre too special to just use normal ones like everyone else.

Neopronouns are the exact opposite of what we should be doing. The problem isnt that there is too little diversity in gender expression with pronouns. The problem is that pronouns are tied to gender at all. They/them for everyone!

masterplum posted...

I feel like at that point you are undermining people who legitimately want to be labeled a different pronoun from their sex

has never even remotely been a concern for me so I'd find a better excuse

Ideally if you don't understand why someone's using a neopronoun - maybe they don't think they're special, maybe they just don't really like the available options and are trying to establish a new one - you'd ask the person, and if you don't need to communicate with or about them, congrats, this isn't actually a problem you have to worry about today

Personally I'm kinda down to clown with neopronouns, because I know the inevitable frustration that comes from trying to get something started that's weird and different and nobody wants to go along with it, so like, sure, whatever? Feels like the big dick energy here comes from just rolling with it and not being worried that it makes you look foolish. The more I think about it the more it just doesn't feel like there's really a reason to be particularly obstinate about it, I'm a language descriptivist so it feels like it falls on me to side with the people who are trying to shape language to better fit their needs because it's fun and why not

Paratroopa1 posted...

I'm a language descriptivist so it feels like it falls on me to side with the people who are trying to shape language to better fit their needs because it's fun and why not

this isn't actually linguistic description, though. It's putting rules on the way people are allowed to talk in certain situations, contrary to how they naturally would, which is closer to prescriptive language if anything. If the population collectively decided to make a new pronoun, rather than someone being like "call me this" then it would be descriptive language though

redrocket posted...

Neopronouns are the exact opposite of what we should be doing. The problem isnt that there is too little diversity in gender expression with pronouns. The problem is that pronouns are tied to gender at all. They/them for everyone!

It's convenient for concise writing if you happen to have two people with different pronouns included in a sentence. You can substitute in pronouns for both without confusion.

StealThisSheen posted...

Arguing "No, I will only go as far as ___/___" is acting like you think you're conceding something in the first place, which is kind of a jerky place to start from to begin with.

I was gonna say something similar

Topic title gave me pause because it's already phrased like using "they/them" was some stretch or hardship or like a gift that trans people should be grateful for

MZero posted...

this isn't actually linguistic description, though. It's putting rules on the way people are allowed to talk in certain situations, contrary to how they naturally would, which is closer to prescriptive language if anything. If the population collectively decided to make a new pronoun, rather than someone being like "call me this" then it would be descriptive language though

Nah, that's not how I mean - it's descriptivism in the sense that this person is using this, so I can't really say that the pronoun doesn't exist because they're already demonstrating it

It entirely depends on how committed they are to the Sluag life

Honestly, I think a good number of people are preemptively frustrated that they'll accidentally get a pronoun wrong and be yelled at.

Some of my genuinely open friends with poor memories (people get old, you know? Yeah, I go to a pottery class) have gotten blasted, and I hate it.

Tbqh it ends up being ableist. Obviously most people understand, are chill about it, and don't get mad, but it's one of those invisible things like poor hearing, where it's easy to assume you're just being rude on purpose

So seriously, why not just do a nice thing for people and make things easy for them?

banananor posted...

Honestly, I think a good number of people are preemptively frustrated that they'll accidentally get a pronoun wrong and be yelled at.

So because you're worried you'll accidentally get a pronoun wrong and be yelled at, you're... intentionally using a pronoun wrong and setting yourself up to be yelled at? That's some real big brain thinking there.

Respect people's pronouns, period. Allow yourself to be corrected if you make a mistake. Don't get defensive, just briefly apologize, move on, and try to remember better. Nobody's looking to start a fight over pronouns except people who don't want to respect them.

If you can't be bothered to respect someone else because "but muh linguistics!", then just do not talk to them at all. Trust me, they don't want to hear from you anyway so save everybody the hassle.

It's shitty to put people on blast for getting a pronoun wrong as an innocent mistake but it REALLY does not happen that often, like yeah some people are really overly defensive either as a result of a long history of having to put up with people being shitty to them OR just being a generally unpleasant person, but most trans people are too fucking scared to even put up a fight most of the time even after like the tenth time getting misgendered. If someone does 'get yelled at' it's usually either: not the first or second or third time someone fucked it up, or someone on the internet who was intentionally being a troll and getting called out on being a troll and not on misgendering, or it was someone high profile who got dogpiled on which regrettably does happen

You could just use the person's name all the time

Paratroopa1 posted...

Nah, that's not how I mean - it's descriptivism in the sense that this person is using this, so I can't really say that the pronoun doesn't exist because they're already demonstrating it

Faer enough

firefdr posted...

You could just use the person's name all the time

But that's offensive too
https://twitter.com/hogpog_98/status/1466851245398933514

Correct, don't awkwardly insist on never using a pronoun at all to avoid someone's pronouns, that's not respectful

banananor posted...

So seriously, why not just do a nice thing for people

yeah, why not?

How many of us have actually encountered someone who uses a neopronoun that they even have reason to refer to by a pronoun? In most of my online interactions with strangers such as on a forum, I would be addressing a person directly and thus would be using 'you.' I almost never talk to someone about a third party unless that person is the subject of the conversation, which would usually be if I'm discussing someone famous and I don't know any truly famous people who use neopronouns.

90% of the people I regularly interact with in person are queer and I have never actually encountered a neopronoun - or, scratch that, I know someone who has specified one but also accepts they/them. This just feels like making up a situation to be upset about.

All pronouns are fine. Who cares what someone wants to identify themselves as. Just be kind when I make a mistake and I will do my best to remember your preferred label.

XIII_rocks posted...

I was gonna say something similar

Topic title gave me pause because it's already phrased like using "they/them" was some stretch or hardship or like a gift that trans people should be grateful for

This is an interesting observation.

I suppose I view it like learning someones name which I view as an effort that shows appreciation. If someones pronouns dont match their heuristics then its like having to learn someones name twice.

I suppose if you didnt think having to learn someones name was a struggle it wouldnt be an issue, but Ive always struggled with names so in a way it does feel like something they should be grateful for

I suck with names but it's kinda a basic courtesy so I try

scarletspeed7 posted...

@scarletspeed7 @ HanOfTheNekos

but Faer is a proper noun...

Context here matters. If this is on faer hinge, then that's whatever. As an email signature, I think it becomes a more complicated discussion.

I find myself remarkably open to gender politics (a good FtM-friend-and-coworker once complimented me on just how open-minded I was for flat out asking him things, though it was a bit undermined by the "at your age" comment.);

I am unfortunately going to follow this up with: neopronouns irk me on a fundamental level. I guess I'm more just waiting for someone to go off the rails because someone accidentally, not maliciously, misgenders, and suddenly we have a situation not unlike someone I know (and have since stopped speaking to) who "attention whore" was a kind descriptor, who was initially MtF but then amended to gender-fluid, back to solidly MtF again to "plural" (we/them) and at that point my eyes threatened to roll out of my skull, and is probably the only time I maliciously *did* misgender her. Them. Whatever.

Y'all, I hated feeling confused enough with myself for years being "cis-bis(exual)" to try and feel out someone else's opinions of whom, ultimately, sexually identified as belligerent.

TL:DR neopronouns are suspicious to me, but okay if kept noncombative.

masterplum posted...

Yeah They/Them is about as far as I am willing to go

You're not willing to do this - you're forced to in order to speak English every day since you were a kid. If you didn't you would sound like an idiot, or worse, a foreigner. You don't have the power to choose this at all.

So yeah, if you're so clouded by politics you can't tell what is English anymore, then you have no choice but to call them fae. What else are you gonna do?

CasanovaZelos posted...

How many of us have actually encountered someone who uses a neopronoun that they even have reason to refer to by a pronoun? In most of my online interactions with strangers such as on a forum, I would be addressing a person directly and thus would be using 'you.' I almost never talk to someone about a third party unless that person is the subject of the conversation, which would usually be if I'm discussing someone famous and I don't know any truly famous people who use neopronouns.

90% of the people I regularly interact with in person are queer and I have never actually encountered a neopronoun - or, scratch that, I know someone who has specified one but also accepts they/them. This just feels like making up a situation to be upset about.

I had an employee who listed fae/faer/he/him as his pronouns. It wasn't really an issue because he also had the standard masculine ones. I'm pretty sure he included them to avoid this very issue. It was never a problem.

Isquen posted...

I guess I'm more just waiting for someone to go off the rails because someone accidentally, not maliciously, misgenders

This doesn't happen

Saving this topic so that in 3 years from now when "neopronouns" becomes socially acceptable everywhere I can look back to this topic and be amazed at how easily people's opinion change