Board 8 > YGO Master Duel Mafia Topic 7 - Zero Days since the last Microtransaction

(+) Yeah! (+)

also a lot of the arguments against Chang was tying him to Ctes - who turned out not to be linked to chang at all.

Hbthebattle posted...

also a lot of the arguments against Chang was tying him to Ctes - who turned out not to be linked to chang at all.

It was that they weren't tied, was the argument. If Ctes wasn't Scum, then that means the alternate lynch on D1 was likely Scum Chang.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

It was that they weren't tied, was the argument. If Ctes wasn't Scum, then that means the alternate lynch on D1 was likely Scum Chang.

Or scum Kirby
Or scum Ben

They all had murmurings as possible lynches by end of day aside from Poppy.

All of them being scum was correct but imo if you always make that assumption in a town-town end of day wagon you will hit a town more often than not and we couldn't afford to.

It wasn't the only reason to think Chang was Scum.

I agree. It is why you as an informed observer thought he was obvious scum the whole time though. But it is not a good way to play that game state and would lose you the game more often than not.

Also if you really want to stretch Han was another possible mislynch there. Probably as likely as Chang at that point.

Lopen posted...

I agree. It is why you as an informed observer thought he was obvious scum the whole time though. But it is not a good way to play that game state and would lose you the game more often than not.

My vote was on Chang all of day 1. If you never come after me day 1, I try to push Chang.

I literally said on Day 2 near end of day that I wanted to be spicy and switch to Chang.

You might not realize this, Lopen, but for the days in this game I was alive in, I was not an informed observer. And yet I thought Chang was Scum.

What happened Day 2?

I said we should be looking at Chang, Ctes, Poppy, Ben for Lynch (3/4 Scum).
I said Sultan was Town.
I said BCT was Town.
I said Lopen was Town.
I said Hb was Town and Abacus by extension.

The ONLY thing I was inaccurate on was Ctes.

And what did Lopen say? After thinking I was Town for 84 hours of day time?
"Han might be Town, but he's definitely confused Town."

You said Kirby was town

Like I'm not saying you were wrong

I'm saying you didn't push for any of your other lynches, so saying "you were okay with Chang Ctes Poppy, Ben" and pushing hardest for Ctes makes you just as wrong as anyone else

Further your assessment of Chang is irrelevant because everyone who thought he was for sure town (pretty much everyone in the game-- BCT only one doubting) thought he was town because of his claim which you were guffawing in dead town chat about how obviously bad the claim was because you had a scum list in front of you.

Like in mafia

If you don't push for a lynch it doesn't matter for anything but to make yourself feel good about how you played the game.

Period. If you suspect 3 scum 1 town and don't actively push for one of the scum, your day is as damaging as someone who suspects 1 scum 3 town and pushes for the lynch of a town.

You can always reassess your suspect list at the end of each day. More data comes in. More ways to digest the existing data. In dead town chat, you don't know how you react to new data because you spoil yourself and have all the data available to you upon death.

But yeah the reassessment point that's the main reason why I say scum threw. They were dumb if they thought I just keep pushing for hb blindly without mass at lylo. And if they think I lynch uncountered cop at mass? Get out of here.

(And really you cutting the momentum on Kirby day 1 was as bad for the game as me cutting the momentum off Ben day 2-- do think we could make a strong push on Kirby if you don't randomly start to townread him for some weird reason)

Note also you're the one who got the Sbell lynch going too

So you basically you're the main reason town was immediately in lylo

Never thought I'd see someone who did that be so confident in their abilities after a game. First time for anything.

Lopen teaching Mafia class lol

Lopen posted...

Like I'm not saying you were wrong

But what you're doing is trying to frame my read of Chang being Scum as incorrect. It's not. It wasn't.

All I'm saying, Lopen, is that I wasn't right about Chang on accident. My reads were good this game. Yes, there were some that were wrong. I have a weakness when people come after me for no reason. Your reason was easy to figure out - you don't know how to read people. It's why you're stuck in logic loops that don't work out. SBell didn't give a whole lot. And then Chang played me by siccing me onto SBell.

As for Ctes, he didn't do much to save himself. It was wrong, yes, but the lynch itself opened up the rest of the game.

As for Kirby, I said I had a Townread of him. But it was weaker than my Townreads for every other non-Scum player.

You just need to realize something, Lopen.

I am good at Mafia.

Lopen posted...

Like in mafia

If you don't push for a lynch it doesn't matter for anything but to make yourself feel good about how you played the game.

Period. If you suspect 3 scum 1 town and don't actively push for one of the scum, your day is as damaging as someone who suspects 1 scum 3 town and pushes for the lynch of a town.

You can always reassess your suspect list at the end of each day. More data comes in. More ways to digest the existing data. In dead town chat, you don't know how you react to new data because you spoil yourself and have all the data available to you upon death.

But yeah the reassessment point that's the main reason why I say scum threw. They were dumb if they thought I just keep pushing for hb blindly without mass at lylo. And if they think I lynch uncountered cop at mass? Get out of here.

(And really you cutting the momentum on Kirby day 1 was as bad for the game as me cutting the momentum off Ben day 2-- do think we could make a strong push on Kirby if you don't randomly start to townread him for some weird reason)

Like in Mafia

If you spend your entire time hounding someone who is obvTown, to the point that you suck up all of the topic space, you create static. That gets in the way of other people reading the game. And it makes it difficult for you OR the person you're idiotically hounding to get anything done because, not only do people have so much shit to sift through, they don't want to listen to EITHER of you anymore.

You're trying to frame me as playing bad this game when the only reason I wasn't killed N1 was because you had such a hard-on for me. Scum have said so.

Yes, I could have pushed further. But I spent 80% of my time this game defending myself from you. I did that because I knew you were Town. I did that because nobody else on town was playing. Except for Peaf. The way for me to get shit done was by getting you to work with me, and when you finally caved, Ctes was the decision because, frankly, you wanted to lynch the Cop!

Obviously I could have played better. But you're in here lecturing people like you're the Mafia guru when the truth is - you're really bad at making reads. And your logic breaks down at times because you don't understand Mafia Psychology.

Obellisk posted...

oh and kirbys niceness totally pocketed me early. jerk

I was genuinely surprised I didn't get instantly dogpiled and suspected on Day 1.

Gosh, maybe that's my scum tell lmao

Like, all it would take Lopen, is you saying "Okay, yeah, I misread you AGAIN Han. I am bad at reading you. And I should learn to trust your reads".

And we're fine.

Or you accepting that you are bad at making reads and learning to trust other players.

The reason DVC talks about players who are alive as if they're making wrong plays? It's not because they're informed Town. It's because they were killed early because they were right. And then nobody goes back to check what they said.

Every time.

If, D3 and on, Town players only decided lynches based on what Nightkilled Town said, then you'd probably just see a bunch of Town wins.

Lopen posted...

I agree. It is why you as an informed observer thought he was obvious scum the whole time though. But it is not a good way to play that game state and would lose you the game more often than not.

Nah, I ended my vote on chang, and before that I said Ben oe Poppy, this was nothing of being an informed observer.

Corrik7 posted...

I think Scum deserved the loss though because they lost the same way they played. Lazy. Kirby was the sole person I felt that put effort in and Lopen unfortunately nailed him (granted with a slight leap in logic that hit the mark hard).

I totally disagree with this. My scummates put in a lot of effort into our strategies at nighttime and our gameplans for the day, even Poppy.

Sure, we weren't active and vocal in the days, but that's strategic and not done out of laziness.

You have no right to call my team lazy when you only got to see the surface-level things that were happening the game. You know nothing about what happened behind the scenes.

I especially won't tolerate you calling Chang lazy because he was the MVP by far. Some of the best shot calls we did this game were at his recommendations.

If anything, I was the lazy one and spam-pinged Chang when I saw Lopen throw down his vote (or hell even when Hb threw down his "vote") without checking for Unvotes until after the fact.

man with the way you guys have been asking its almost as if we lost the game :^)

Lopen posted...

I agree. It is why you as an informed observer thought he was obvious scum the whole time though. But it is not a good way to play that game state and would lose you the game more often than not.

Lopen, you need to realize that Han named the entire scum team as soon as he got into dead town chat, without any spoilers.

I know Han's ego tends to get in the way of debates more often than not, but Han also outlined an entire flow chart for who is scum if Ctes flips town, and that included Poppy and Chang.

I saw this on my ISO and deliberately left it out because I obviously didn't want to call attention to Chang. But you also Ctrl + F'd through the topics, so you should have seen that. But you didn't (or if you did, you didn't call attention to it like you should have).

Yes, you won the game. But Han isn't wrong; we prioritized nightkill targets based on who we would thought could actually convince Town based on what dead people said. I even said this in scum chat:

"What are the odds that if we kill Han, nobody is gonna look back at his post where he clearly outlines everyone here as scum if Ctes flips town lmao"
(To which Ben replied "100%", and he was goddamn right)

That being said, if you're not taking active notes, it's tedious going back and rereading everything. Many people don't want to put the time and effort into doing so, and that's totally understandable.

But I don't think this is a particular case of being an informed dead townie. I have choice words for some people coming out of dead town chat and calling everyone trash or whatever, but this isn't one of those cases.

Han lost the game because he was aching for something lord over me again and still isn't accepting he had a bad game LOL

Lopen, if we thought Han wouldn't be able to convince Town eventually, we wouldn't have killed him N2.

Why do you think we kept you alive LOL

I'm saying being alive makes you doubt reads too

I don't think Han wins if he survives till endgame. The fact is I did. Simple as.

Like the biggest reason people thought Chang was town Han had a cheatsheet for that's what I'm saying

Han didn't have a town scan on Kirby to battle

Naming all the scum upon death means squat if your legacy in life is driving two town mislynches. I don't think Han has the audacity to push you through a town scan on you. He had already proven spineless this game and was constantly doubting himself

Naming all the scum doesn't mean a damn thing if you don't get any lynched.

Like if Han survives n2 and say Abacus dies

Han lynches me over you no questions asked. Guaranteed. Town just loses.

The problem is Lopen, I'm not saying I had a good game. I'm saying I was right on my reads, and you were very wrong.

That is factually true.

You want to talk hypotheticals? Fine. If you weren't so terribly hounding me the first two days, then Chang gets lynched day 1. I die N1. That's it!

Or, fuck, SBell actually claims Doctor - then Ctes dies and SBell dies N1. And if I'm somehow not dead, then Chang dies D2.

Or, hey, D2, when you did start working with me, if you talked me out of Ctes and we went for Ben or Chang, hey, great!

You're talking up a big game because you took advantage of a bad rule to trick Scum when you still didn't know who they all were. Congrats. I wouldn't feel good about winning that way anymore, but whatever gets you off.

Kirby321 posted...

Lopen, if we thought Han wouldn't be able to convince Town eventually, we wouldn't have killed him N2.

Why do you think we kept you alive LOL

did that actually work, though? There were zero mislynches after Han died.

Lopen posted...

Like if Han survives n2 and say Abacus dies

Han lynches me over you no questions asked. Guaranteed. Town just loses.

After Day 2, I wasn't lynching you before anybody. Don't make things up and pretend I would have to try to win an argument. It's just sad, man.

Hbthebattle posted...

did that actually work, though? There were zero mislynches after Han died.

Are you trying to argue that their strategy didn't work because of Lopen, and not because you scanned Scum two nights straight?

I don't feel good about winning that way. I think Chang deserved the win.

I do feel good about correctly sticking to my guns on scanned Kirby

And I have no doubts you never lynch scanned Kirby. You just had no fire to push anyone but easy targets. If I die instead of you endgame resolves identically but you just lynch Sultan. Very confident in that. You showed nothing in this game that has me think you have the assertiveness to push Chang's great fakeclaim or a cop scan. Having the right read at a moment in time and keeping that read till endgame are very different things.

Like I said you can blame me, or you be accountable and wonder why you didn't push any correct lynches despite knowing who all the scum were. There is more to the game than identifying scum.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Are you trying to argue that their strategy didn't work because of Lopen, and not because you scanned Scum two nights straight?

I think there were a number of factors. Lopen doesn't directly influence the lynch on D3 or D4, but he did get Kirby and pushed on through even through a scan. I don't think his performance was as horrible as you're acting like on the later days.

apologies to my team for my performance that was well below what I should be putting in. The game just didn't really work out for me schedule-wise and at that point I fell behind and lost the will to catch up with the game.

I had hoped that my play the first days would at least set my teammates up for the long haul and they seemed to be doing pretty well until they botched it at the end.

Lesson learned, need to make sure I'll actually have time and be in the right mindset before joining again. Sorry again for being a letdown.

Hbthebattle posted...

did that actually work, though? There were zero mislynches after Han died.

Hey now
You only got your scans off Peaf and his mindgames >_>

Not that Ben and Poppy weren't dead meat anyway, but your scans on them certainly unified the town and helped drive the lynch lol

I don't give credit to Lopen for the scum lynches. If Peaf wasn't Bus Driver, you wouldn't have gotten a single scan out.

Hell, if you didn't claim at all on Day 2, we probably would've been successful at keeping you perma roleblocked since we knew you were Cop from Chang's first role scan, assuming Peaf had no reason to swap you with someone else (which he did do on N2 because you were outed Cop).

But that's a lot of hypotheticals for stuff that didn't happen.

Point is: you're seriously underselling how much your uninhibited scans impacted D3 and onward

Here is my assessment of play

Me and Han sucked day 1. Han arguably sucked more because he let scum go and started a flash wagon on the doctor.
Me and Han sucked day 2. I sucked a LOT more due to white knighting scum and trying to push cop.

Day 3 and Day 4 are basically AutoPilot for the lynches but being able to rally town to not lynch BCT, get BCT to try and participate, and push through a gf scan are not something I have faith Han successfully does. If I'm alive he probably gets paranoid of me eventually. If I'm dead he probably just accepts the cop scan and lynches Sultan.

But he'll keep thinking he had a great game because he named all 4 scum upon death. Shame that's not how you win though.

Hbthebattle posted...

I think there were a number of factors. Lopen doesn't directly influence the lynch on D3 or D4, but he did get Kirby and pushed on through even through a scan. I don't think his performance was as horrible as you're acting like on the later days.

I'm not acting like his performance was horrible on the later days. I'm saying his reads were objectively bad in the early game and he's talking up mafia strategy as if he's a savant when he, in his logic for believing claims, said things that were wrong.

Lopen put a lot of effort into the game in later days. If he didn't, then Scum probably wins with a mislynch sooner. And yes, despite his logic for thinking Kirby was Scum initially being actually incorrect, he did a good job sticking to him.

My basic problem with all of this is that Lopen is just trying to shut down other players while propping himself up. Like, this horseshit about 'knowing' what I'd do on D4, 'guaranteed'?

Fuck, all I was doing was defending that I read Chang as Scum without being dead. That's it. I have good reads. That's just a fact.

Like if I die night 2 I'd say I had a bad game. Because believe it or not I'm not as conceited about my skill in this game as you think.

If Han dies night 2 I say he has a bad game. And he did. Unless there is a role that can communicate with the dead naming a scumteam in dead town chat is worth exactly nothing.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Like, this horseshit about 'knowing' what I'd do on D4, 'guaranteed'?

You backed off of Kirby for way less than a cop scan

You never push him through a cop scan. 0%.

Hbthebattle posted...

I think there were a number of factors. Lopen doesn't directly influence the lynch on D3 or D4, but he did get Kirby and pushed on through even through a scan. I don't think his performance was as horrible as you're acting like on the later days.

Han's point is that Lopen completely ignored Chang despite Han's D2 posts clearly outlining Chang, Poppy, and Ben as scum.

I'm not gonna say Lopen played horribly or that Han played well -- frankly, I don't care about any of that.

But let's not forget that even with your guilty scan on Ben, Lopen still didn't believe you.

Like, it's supremely ironic when scum has to convince a townie to listen to the uncountered Cop lmfao

PoppyTheNinja posted...

apologies to my team for my performance that was well below what I should be putting in. The game just didn't really work out for me schedule-wise and at that point I fell behind and lost the will to catch up with the game.

I had hoped that my play the first days would at least set my teammates up for the long haul and they seemed to be doing pretty well until they botched it at the end.

Lesson learned, need to make sure I'll actually have time and be in the right mindset before joining again. Sorry again for being a letdown.

No worries, Poppy. It was a honor to be your scummate, and thanks for playing!

Lopen posted...

Here is my assessment of play

Me and Han sucked day 1. Han arguably sucked more because he let scum go and started a flash wagon on the doctor.

I didn't start the wagon on the doctor lol. SBell is the most complicit in that lynch, since he could have claimed. Then I'll give Scum credit for helping push it along with me. I admitted to being tilted by it. Don't pretend I didn't.

Me and Han sucked day 2. I sucked a LOT more due to white knighting scum and trying to push cop. If I'm alive he probably gets paranoid of me eventually.

I would have lynched Sultan before you. You don't know what I will probably do. You are not good at reading people, as we have determined.

My Day 2 was fine. I outlined the game. I solved things. Ctes was the wrong lynch, but it was his flip that cleared other things up for a certainty.

And again - if you had actually worked with me at any moment during the game, things turn out completely differently. I didn't have as much energy for this game as you did. You were in a much better position to lead Town - I would be happy to play the advisor. But I had to spend almost all of my energy fending you off.

I was worse this game because you pulled me down.

Anyway, I never argued I had a good game. I just argued my reads were correct. And I win that argument!

Kirby321 posted...

But let's not forget that even with your guilty scan on Ben, Lopen still didn't believe you.

I wanted mass. If no other scanner that isn't Ben's ridiculous watcher claim I believe it by default. Because Ben's claim had so many holes I didn't require mass.

It is smart to not believe a cop scan when one mislynch loses the game before mass.

If the cop is a fakeclaim scum just auto wins.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Anyway, I never argued I had a good game. I just argued my reads were correct. And I win that argument!

Okay great! I don't care if your reads were good because you only ever lynched your reads that weren't

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I was worse this game because you pulled me down

Lol

Take the L dude

Like let me tell you

I was fully ready to back you as town until you backed off of Kirby (scum) for the most insignificant and irrelevant of reasons

That was you, man. If anything you dragged me down.

Lopen posted...

Lol

Take the L dude

It's a fact, man.

I get het up, sure, but nothing I've been saying in these talks have been anything but facts. You're the one who is literally making stuff up and using hypotheticals that can't be proven to try to win one over on me.

Lopen posted...

But he'll keep thinking he had a great game because he named all 4 scum upon death. Shame that's not how you win though.

I will say, Han is irksome for always saying this at the end of every game (and I vented as much in scum chat). You saying stuff like "Han has no spine and wouldn't push a town scan" is asinine.

Frankly, Han died, you didn't.
You had the chance to redeem yourself for your horrible reads Day 1 and Day 2.
Han did not have the luxury of redeeming himself for his Day 1 and Day 2 gameplay because he killed him in fear of what would happen if we let him live long enough to redeem himself.

I don't care how long you've known Han or whatever, but it's completely unfair that you're inflating your ego while putting down Han because of things you were able to do that Han had absolutely no chance of doing this game. You're a hypocrite for judging Han on his D1 and D2 gameplay and then praising yourself for having just as a bad of a show if not worse because you redeemed yourself after Han died.

Kirby321 posted...

I don't care how long you've known Han or whatever, but it's completely unfair that you're inflating your ego while putting down Han because of things you were able to do that Han had absolutely no chance of doing this game. You're a hypocrite for judging Han on his D1 and D2 gameplay and then praising yourself for having just as a bad of a show if not worse because you redeemed yourself after Han died.

It is based on this game not any history. Han showed no fire that he could push any lynch but the lowest of hanging fruit.

Lopen posted...

It is based on this game not any history. Han showed no fire that he could push any lynch but the lowest of hanging fruit.

You don't know that.

It was Day 2 ffs

You had more information going into Day 3 than Han did going into Day 2

You don't know shit about whether Han could push a lynch in the same place as you

Han supposedly had 3 scum and 1 town in his list day 2

Settled for the 1 town in a very low energy lynch that I basically drove because Han was just like not doing anything to consolidate lynches

That's all I need to know to know he had no fire. He shouldn't need more data he already solved the game supposedly