Board 8 > ~FIGHT~ Cloud, Vivi and Liquid Snake vs. Crono, Tingle and Aigis

(+) Yeah! (+)

Cloud Strife, Vivi Ornitier and Liquid Snake have challenged Crono, Tingle and Aigis to a fight! Location of the fight: Sword & Shield Dungeon - An underground labyrinth mixed with ice and fire alike, featuring slippery floors, lava pits, and plenty of spike traps and pitfalls, as it appears in The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons. All enemies and items have been removed and all key doors are unlocked. Access to Subrosia or the rest of the world is denied. Attackers begin at the dungeons entrance while defenders begin in the room with the Changing Seasons. Which side will win?

Guidelines
- The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.
- The members of each team are ideal teammates capable of executing a prearranged battle plan.
- Unless stated otherwise, characters have access to their full arsenal of abilities and equipment. They may not always work at full power, however (e.g. a petrifying spell may have only a partial hindering effect not seen in gameplay or even fail outright against sufficiently powerful mercenaries). Use your own discretion.
- There may be SPOILERS from all of the games the characters are from.

Rules for Voting
- Bold your votes.
- You do not need to require justification for your vote, though the admins reserve the right to disqualify votes in the advent of obvious alt voting and other similar scenarios.
- Leaders cannot vote for their own teams, but they are free to argue their case.
- If you want to switch your votes simply bold the change; there's no need to delete your post, though you may if you wish.
- This match will end in 24 hours.

Vivi Ornitier is as he appears in Final Fantasy 9, equipped with his ultimate endgame equipment and his full complement of passive abilities, minus all auto abilities except for Auto-Reflect (which he may dismiss at will but not reapply). He has access to all of his spells save Death, may apply Element Null as he sees fit and may perform Sword Magic combos with other allies as appropriate. Doomsday will not necessarily hit all enemies nor allies automatically.

Cloud Strife is as he appears in Final Fantasy 7 Remake and continuations, with full access to all his moves and Limit Breaks seen therein. He has access to all elemental magic materia, Deadly Dodge, Parry, Steadfast Block, Healing, Barrier, Subversion, Time, Elemental (linked to Lightning), Assess, Refocus and Bahamut, all fully mastered. He has been hit by Crono and Aigis' Burst Smite Dual Tech, born of combining Luminaire and Heritage Liberator Palladion. Its effect is up to interpretation, but will never be less damaging than the sum of each technique or spell's individual effects.

Eli is as he appears in Metal Gear V: The Phantom Pain, piloting Metal Gear Sahelanthropus as seen in Mission 50, with full access to all its attacks. He is accompanied by Tretij Rebenok, using his powers to maintain the machine's functionality, and who may be disrupted temporarily as normal.

~VS~

Tingle is as he appears in Hyrule Warriors: Definitive Edition, equipped with a Mr. Fairy Balloon. He may freely use Tingle Bombs, can use his balloon for flight as seen in Majoras Mask, and has an accurate map of the current terrain. He only has five minutes left to live, at which point he will mysteriously keel over, dead and unable to be revived in any way, shape or form. He and his team will be aware of his impending demise, however, and factor it into their battle plans.

Crono is as he appears in Chrono Trigger's latest version, with a set of full endgame equipment and access to all his techs. He may perform combination techs with his allies should the situation demand it. He has completely forgotten his own past and become convinced that he is actually Tusk, from Killer Instinct 2013. He will try to act and fight in battle as the mercenary would, coloured through the lens of his own natural personality. If he lacks the capability to fight as the missing mercenary at all (e.g. a gunman lacking the capacity to cast magic like a wizard would) he will gain comparable techniques to his object of idolization, though how powerful and skilful these techniques will be past a basic level is up to voter interpretation and he will have access to none of Tusk's equipment. Hey will maintain the fiction through the rest of this week's battle, though sufficient enough evidence of his own past will shock him out of his delusion.

Aigis is as she appears in Persona 4 Arena Ultimax with all of her moves available. Pallas Athena also has all of her skills and properties from Persona 3 and Persona Q2 available. She must actively focus to apply the effects of Aegis Shielding, but it will always trigger if she does so. She is always aware of Cloud's location, and will prioritize taking him down if possible.

So this match takes place in the Sword & Shield Dungeon (Maze?) from Oracle of Seasons. My team starts at the entrance on the first floor and the other team starts in the treasure room in the basement.

So there's two way this match can go. Either this place magically expands to fit Sahelanthropus, which means that it can go along and fight with the rest of the team and isn't hindered in any way, or Sahelanthropus barely fits, which leads it to just destroying the floor to try to cause a cave in.

In the first scenario, there's nothing anyone can do here to stop Sahelanthropus. Crono thinks he's some sort of immortal viking, so he's going to run in and get himself killed against it. It took the combined forces of Venom Snake's military to down Sahelanthropus. Aigis doesn't even come close to that kind of firepower even with her persona. She can't win this alone.

In the second scenario, Liquid just gets mad that he can't move that he starts trying to wreck the place to make room. He's probably going to have the floor cave in, which isn't good for the other team that's currently below mine. Sahelanthropus has a giant flame whip that it can use to have stalagmites jut out of the ground. There's also a cutscene where Snake thinks he has it trapped behind a cliff, then it just breaks the cliff down to keep chasing Snake. It has the legpower to casually kick tanks around. If it wants to make room, it'll make room. Even if the other team manages to survive the cave-in, they still don't have the firepower to down Sahelanthropus.

TL;DR: Sahelanthropus needs an army to be taken down. Crono thinks he's immortal when he's not, and Aigis doesn't have anywhere near the firepower needed to take down Sahelanthropus by herself. If the terrain is an issue, Sahelanthropus will just destroy it like it has in the past.

Well, this is an uphill battle so I'm not going to waste too much energy here. Cloud's hit by Burst Strike. You'll make some interp as to whether he survives. I think he doesn't personally but that's just MY OPINION. You've likely already formed yours.

Anyways the most important thing here is that we're in the Sword and Shield Maze: https://www.zeldadungeon.net/Zelda07/Walkthrough/Maps/Sword-Shield-Maze.png

Problematically, it is likely to damage the ceiling of the cave first before it tries to do anything else. The problem is that this dungeon is in a volcano. While mercs prevents access to the rest of Subrosia, I don't think that prevents lava from being on the other side of a ceiling in a volcano.

In general though, this is a very cramped dungeon that is extremely difficult for Sahelanthropus to get around in. The ceiling can't be very high (Sahelanthropus is 24m tall standing up) and it's going to be cramped as shit. He's going to have to bust his way through things, but he doesn't have the mobility to be able to punch through walls. So what does it do? Explode things. If it destroys the wrong part of the terrain, it risks getting lava dumped on it, it falls into the abyss, or into a pit of lava in the floor below (the lava pit is on the bottom level of the terrain under the center). Sahelanthropus does not survive lava.

In any case, Crono and Aigis are hearing quaking going on upstairs so they're shure as shit not going upstairs and Sahelanthropus is most definitely not coming down any staircases so its only option is to drop down from below using its destructive capabilities where it could easily land in the wrong place.

Because Sahelanthropus is its own worst enemy here and I personally think Cloud is dead and this ends up being a solid match in my favor. Vivi is not a skilled fighter in cramped quarters and Crono can easily rush in and take him out.

This fight most likely happens in the boss room where Crono and Aigis spawn. If they hear a bunch of quaking going on upstairs, and they have the map, they're not likely to go anywhere. Crono takes Vivi out quickly while Aigis is holding off Cloud, and is then able to rejoin the fight. Cloud might seem like he has an advantage against Aigis at a glance, but Aigis has far better sustain and will actually have backup that's alive. If Crono can take the heat from Cloud for a few seconds, Aigis can heal them to full and rebuff.

I'm too lazy to research Tusk but I know that he's a very strong swordfighter and this may actually benefit Crono in melee. It's not like he would have been able to get a revive off anyways.

Oh and the boss room is the big yellow room in the basement.

If you want an example of what Sahelanthropus can do, here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiNfB5S6xaY

About the whole lava thing. Lava ceases to be molten around 700 degrees Celsius. The top floor of this dungeon is filled with ice. Either there's some magical force keeping things below 0 degrees Celsius and the lava isn't an issue, or the low temperatures of the upper floor are keeping the lava from becoming molten in the volcano.

I think based off the dungeon's design it's pretty clear that special magic is involved in the ice.

There are 3 ice crystals in the center of the map, which if dropped down the holes each freeze one respective section of the large lava pit in the basement. Magic!

Unfortunately that ice is almost definitely not being used correctly here if it's not completely destroyed by Sahelanthropus.

If Sahelanthropus falls into lava, it's no difference, and if lava spills from the ceiling and does solidify fast, congratulations it's now encased in solid rock that you're definitely not getting out of. It'd be like digging yourself out of a deep avalanche, more snow comes in as you blow out around you.

I think Crono with Tusk's ability is a pretty good glow up at least

does cloud get healing magic?

greengravy294 posted...

does cloud get healing magic?

Healing yes, revivals no.

So if it is magically frozen, then the ceiling should be no different, yes? It'll act as a barrier, and if Sahelanthropus does break it, it'll just freeze over again.

Besides, there should be enough room for it to not have its head next to the ceiling. There's definitely enough room for Sahelanthropus in the 2D sidescrolling sections, and the main rooms should be about that size.

Match depends on whether Cloud dies or not.

so does anyone have cloud tanking featz

Overall probably a downgrade for Crono's fighting ability. Doubt Crono's body type and weapon play all that well with Tusk's brute force two handed sword style. Also loses the ability to cast magic. He's not worthless I'm sure he can do alright using his katana like a larger sword but definitely a downgrade.

Mewtwo59 posted...

So if it is magically frozen, then the ceiling should be no different, yes? It'll act as a barrier, and if Sahelanthropus does break it, it'll just freeze over again.

Besides, there should be enough room for it to not have its head next to the ceiling. There's definitely enough room for Sahelanthropus in the 2D sidescrolling sections, and the main rooms should be about that size.

Ancient magic is a delicate art - you dare upset the balance?!

And the sidescrolling rooms are taller but definitely a bad proxy for the rest of the dungeon. They specifically have multiple elevations - the rest of the dungeon does not. He also definitely doesn't fit. He fits *better* but they're definitely not 24m tall. The ceiling is max 8-10 Young Links tall.

What the fuck is a Salandipolus

KamikazePotato posted...

Match depends on whether Cloud dies or not.

IMO Cloud is very dead. Offhand the only tanking feat Remake cloud is the one we can apply by proxy to him from OG's Nibelheim disaster, as he has presumably gone through that mess and gotten impaled by Sephiroth still. It's implied he dies in the fall after fighting Airbuster in Remake and gets revived by the ghosts, for example, so we know he's got an upper ceiling of durability that is probably below the Heritage Liberator Palladion + Luminaire combo. I...don't think Remake Cloud should get credit for OG Cloud's best tanking feat, which is getting stabbed like eight times by Sephiroth in AC? He's noted as being at the peak of his fighting abilities there, a peak Remake Cloud has yet to reach seeing as he couldn't beat Sephiroth.

leaning towards cloud not tanking it due to a lack of FEATz

(To be clear, I think Cloud dying doesn't change the outcome one way or another. If Sahelanthropus doesn't die to lava it can easily solo because it's one of the worst matchups Aigis could ever have due to the corrosive archaea eating her body and Crono!Tusk is not good enough to beat it either. The question is how the terrain works here IMO.)

Also to note that Cloud has gotten a lot stronger since the Nibelheim incident. If Cloud at his weakest can still survive being stabbed by Sephiroth, a much stronger Cloud should be able to survive something a lot stronger than that.

Mewtwo59 posted...

Also to note that Cloud has gotten a lot stronger since the Nibelheim incident. If Cloud at his weakest can still survive being stabbed by Sephiroth, a much stronger Cloud should be able to survive something a lot stronger than that.

I will remind the people that Heritage Liberator Palladion is much stronger than a stab wound on its own!

Dual tech timestamps in case voters forgot what they look like:
https://youtu.be/B3csqSb-9Mk?t=73
https://youtu.be/IrmDrlgTr3Y?t=130

KanzarisKelshen posted...

corrosive archaea eating her body

The what

KamikazePotato posted...

The what

TL;DR: Sahelanthropus can release a rain of rust that is actually weird parasites that eat metal and rust it to uselessness. They're basically magic in terms of what they can do and the particular form Sahelanthropus gets can form a fiery whip, unleash tons and tons of machine-ruining rust, and a couple other things. Sahelanthropus is an awful matchup for anything mechanical. It's why it's important to know if it dies to the terrain itself or not. Even if it can't move, all it has to do is unload the rust mites and Aigis will die if she gets close.

https://youtu.be/MYKN2-T4jpg?t=522

If anyone wants to see what I mean about 'tons of machine eating rust', the link gives an idea. IIRC this shows up in a cutscene too but I'm not certain which one it is.

Well, the ice level should be more than enough to nullify the lava, so Sahelanthropus shouldn't have to worry about dying to it. There's the lower level, but the chunks from the upper level should help with that, since they have magical properties that freeze lava instantly. If Sahelanthropus destroys the upper floor, it's going to the bottom floor, where there's already a mechanic in the game where stuff from the top floor freezes stuff in the bottom floor. Also, there's not much lava in the room directly below the entrance. Odds of Sahelanthropus actually falling in it are pretty low.

Does the sandhspamcbe stand up things like rpg fire about the same as a rex or no?

Even better. They sent multiple tanks at it and it didn't leave a scratch.

Eddv posted...

Does the sandhspamcbe stand up things like rpg fire about the same as a rex or no?

No, it's monumentally tougher. The video I posted is a solid like, ten minutes of Big Boss hitting it with an experimental grenade launcher that fires like ten nades a shot and it still takes that long to go down. And that's with helicopter assistance too (missiles and machineguns both iirc). It's an incredibly unkillable asshole of a mech.

Sahelanthropus' armor was composed of depleted uranium, a byproduct of the creation of uranium-235, carrying about 23 tons of it on its body.

Melting point of Uranium is 1132C.

Bright red lava flows in Hawaii can get as hot as 629.4444 C, with the glowing orange flows getting hotter than 871.1111 C, according to USGS.

Sahelanthropus will be fine.

Mewtwo59 posted...

Sahelanthropus' armor was composed of depleted uranium, a byproduct of the creation of uranium-235, carrying about 23 tons of it on its body.

Melting point of Uranium is 1132C.

Bright red lava flows in Hawaii can get as hot as 629.4444 C, with the glowing orange flows getting hotter than 871.1111 C, according to USGS.

Sahelanthropus will be fine.

This is a strongly convincing argument (and if anyone needed more proof Sahelanthropus is built ungodly beefy, well there ya go). I still need to watch a couple vids on the dungeon itself just to confirm my suspicions, but for reference's sake, the Kilauea volcano erupting would only just barely hit that level of heat. So barring shenannes Sahelanthropus can probably survive lava, which is really bad news for Team Crono.

hmmm

poor choice of sig

the salenthropus might be able to survive that level of heat, but the metal getting heated to that high a degree probably kills Eli inside of it.

Eli's not even really in the thing. It's weird, but he's got some sort of psychic connection with Tretij Rebenok that lets him control it. And Tretij Rebenok isn't in the thing either, he's floating outside it. There's no reason why he'd ever end up in the lava.

do all its explosives just explode

It's not like it's going to be taking a lava bath. The only room that has that much lava is the center basement room, and that also happens to be the room that the magic ice freezes. If it ends up in the lava, it can just move. Even at a temperature like that, it's not going to transfer all that heat immediately.

anyway I think this is where I miss some of the hard and fast terrain rules we had on some older terrains like this because this was a very clever pick by JC where I could see like all sorts of bad outcomes for the giant dumb robot

I'd say that the dual tech fails, because Crono derped out and doesn't know Luminaire anymore in pre-battle. (Technical thought, Pre-Battle amnesia negates start of battle ability due to losing lightning spell.) Also I don't see any downside from either side in Tingle casually dying. Will think on things more when at work.

ZeeksFire posted...

I'd say that the dual tech fails, because Crono derped out and doesn't know Luminaire anymore in pre-battle. (Technical thought, Pre-Battle amnesia negates start of battle ability due to losing lightning spell.) Also I don't see any downside from either side in Tingle casually dying. Will think on things more when at work.

Bold is law.

He does Luminaire.

You could even argue that using Luminaire reminds Crono that he is Crono if you believe that is "sufficient evidence" of who he is, thus breaking the effect. ((Remember clouds is broken by seeing a picture of his younger self, so its not exactly this super duper high threshold))

I also dont think it matters TOO much here

Question would the uranium death shroud thing negatively effect teammates forced to stay in a small box with the robot? How about Tretij or Eli or whoever the fuck is physically piloting the thing?

Because I honestly might be inclined to say "Dungeon is made of magic and doesnt break and the thing is stuck in the room they spawn in"

Would camping slowly kill Liquids team?

Well, if he does Luminaire, it's probably just as bad, since Elemental+Lightning, any damage that is done via the Heritage Liberator is negated by the Luminaire. Cloud is taking all of squat from the dual tech.

Considering that everyone in MGS5 who was around it never suffered any ill effects, it shouldn't cause any issues for the duration of the battle. Huey built the thing and he didn't die for another 13 years (from drowning). Anyway, if Sahelanthropus can't move, it forces the other team to come to it, and that's as straightforward of a fight as you're going to get here. Aigis dies to the rust thing, Crono can't do anything to it regardless of whether he thinks he's himself or not, and Tingle's dead by that point due to the ability.

Eddv posted...

anyway I think this is where I miss some of the hard and fast terrain rules we had on some older terrains like this because this was a very clever pick by JC where I could see like all sorts of bad outcomes for the giant dumb robot

I don't think we ever had a terrain rule for this kind of thing, FWIW. I distinctly recall at least one case where a similar 'merc is boxed in' thing happened very late in the game (Jeezy vs DC where Jeezy trapped Grigori the dragon from Dragon's Dogma in a spaceship's hold that was too small for him). Unless I'm missing something?

Oh yeah, Tretij spent a ton of time around it "piloting" it with his psychic powers, and he lived for another 21 years, and he died in a fight. All he had on was a gas mask and straight jacket, no nuclear protection gear or anything. While I won't say that it's perfectly safe, I think we have enough evidence that Tretij will be fine.

ZeeksFire posted...

Well, if he does Luminaire, it's probably just as bad, since Elemental+Lightning, any damage that is done via the Heritage Liberator is negated by the Luminaire. Cloud is taking all of squat from the dual tech.

Eh?

Eddv posted...

Eh?

Luminaire is a lightning attack.

Cloud Strife is as he appears in Final Fantasy 7 Remake and continuations, with full access to all his moves and Limit Breaks seen therein. He has access to all elemental magic materia, Deadly Dodge, Parry, Steadfast Block, Healing, Barrier, Subversion, Time, Elemental (linked to Lightning), Assess, Refocus and Bahamut, all fully mastered. He has been hit by Crono and Aigis' Burst Smite Dual Tech, born of combining Luminaire and Heritage Liberator Palladion. Its effect is up to interpretation, but will never be less damaging than the sum of each technique or spell's individual effects. (edited to underline versus bold, since bold is for votes and rulings)

Maxed Elemental materia gives absorption effect to the related elemental attack, so start of battle combo, you take the attack of the Heritage Liberator Palladion, and reduce the damage that would do by the full force of the Luminaire. Bold might be law, (although i do disagree with it due to mechanics, and what would be timing, but that's beside the point in this argument) but there is nothing that negates Cloud's loadout from existing to change the situation of being hit by the full force of the attack, and shrugging it off, one half of it negating the damage from the other half.

Oh , good point. It would become an electric attack due to Luminaire, which Cloud absorbs. In Chrono Trigger, it makes the total damage the element of one attack in situations like this, so Cloud will just absorb the whole thing.

Luminaire isn't lightning, as a note. It's Light element. Now, some Light attacks are lightning-aspected, but not all of them necessarily. As a notable example of this, Luminaire comes back in Chrono Cross as a White Element attack, which is the type that covers meteors, supernovas, celestial phenomena and holiness. By contrast, lightning attacks are Yellow Element in that game. Obviously cross-game mechanics are at play, so take this with a grain of salt, but considering the latest CT localizations actively changed Crono's element from Lightning to Light, this is worth noting IMO.

It hits the same elemental resistance as lightning spells do in Chrono Trigger. It doesn't matter what it is in other games. Unless you can show me something that absorbs electric spells in Chrono Trigger not absorb Luminaire, it counts as an electric spell.

Vivi, Cloud, and Metal Gear

In the fact that in Chrono trigger, Luminaire is the same elemental damage as lightning spells, Cloud casually no-sells the Dual tech. The Metal Gear given situation two, gives Liquid a second choice, flood the area with Surveillance mines and start firing the railgun on spotting. This puts team Aigis in the worst possible situation, having to be the attackers in their own location, since Vivi and Cloud don't have to move.

Somewhere in transit, Tingle's balloon pops and he splats into the lava. Noone is sad. But without crono having any magical abilities, there is some serious pinning issues, at long range (Railgun and mines) Medium range (Magic from vivi and cloud, as well as the gatling guns) and close range with melee with Cloud if they get there.

Research lookup - in Japan, Crono's element was Heaven, but NoA didn't want anything to do with religion so it got changed to lightning.

There's not going to be any ranged attacks here unless they end up in the large lava room in the basement. The rooms are all very small.

Luminaire is a lightning bolt fellas lol

team cloud

cloud doesn't die. Cloud and metal gear outclass the other tram 2 v 2 and vivi probably does work at some point.