Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Leon, Kiryu, Rika and Mega Man vs. B.J. Blazkowicz and Samus

(+) Yeah! (+)

KamikazePotato posted...

Big question: for Rika, how aware is she of her powers and willing to metagame it + tell allies about it

Because she could just say "Hey, let's wait a day before attacking so we get like 3000 retries"

She's unwilling to divulge the details of her timeloop with her allies. The reasons why are up to you to decide - that she fears they'd think she's lying, that she's afraid of what might happen if it's abused, whatever - but she has to persuade her allies without being able to reveal how she knows her stuff.

In other words she could say 'please don't go that way! There's enemies in wait!' but she'd have to sell them, on why and not just say 'because I time traveled and just saw you die'.

• Obviously, the star of the show is Rika's time loops. She gets a guaranteed first draft of the match as long as she can keep herself alive, and from there, can constantly adjust her team's strategy to tell them what works and what fails, as long as they haven't encountered too much of the enemy team before she can say anything! She'll have to be with a very trustworthy team (or a psychic) at first, but on upgrade, entire strategies can be planned around Rika's loops and keeping her safe and protected without her needing to goad her teammates.

Okay, so she can tell them, they just might not believe her. Mega Man and Kazuma totally would though, and Leon has seen enough shit not to write anything off even if it sounds crazy.

Also the upgraded version of Rika is like, maybe the strongest Merc ever released that isn't Laharl

KanzarisKelshen posted...

She's unwilling to divulge the details of her timeloop with her allies. The reasons why are up to you to decide - that she fears they'd think she's lying, that she's afraid of what might happen if it's abused, whatever - but she has to persuade her allies without being able to reveal how she knows her stuff.

I buy that that was the intended way the character was created, but the text is super vague about it. Would legitimately recommend making this clearer cause I think you can edit stuff mid-test run.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

In other words she could say 'please don't go that way! There's enemies in wait!' but she'd have to sell them, on why and not just say 'because I time traveled and just saw you die'.

How far does this extend though? Could she make up something and say 'I'm psychic'? Would she say something like that?

This is a good point - Rikas gonna need teammates that take her seriously.

Leon and Kiryu are very pro kid but theyre not necessarily gonna believeher especially as her prescribed strats get increasingly bonkers (like jumping down a pretty deadly looking sheer drop to go looking for a hidden passage Im still not convinced they ever decicde to go looking for without Rika repeatedly biting it trying to survive the precipitious drop.)

Kiryu will believe any word Rika says. Between his gullibility and his love of children, Rika won't even have to explain anything. Kiryu will just do it.

Rika is with a team of people that will also listen to her. Its Mega Man and Kiryu, not M. Bison and Kefka

So if Rika is with a team of villains and distusting people, then sure we need a character upgrade. But we're talking KIRYU and Mega Man

I buy that that was the intended way the character was created, but the text is super vague about it. Would legitimately recommend making this clearer cause I think you can edit stuff mid-test run.

Possibly worth it to add some ability clarification, yeah. Wouldn't even mean changing the effect, just clarifying it.

How far does this extend though? Could she make up something and say 'I'm psychic'? Would she say something like that?

I think Kamek or Boko can clarify this better than I so I'll leave it to them here.

Mewtwo59 posted...

Kiryu will believe any word Rika says. Between his gullibility and his love of children, Rika won't even have to explain anything. Kiryu will just do it.

This is very true though. If Kiryu saw she was really distressed and said it was important, he would probably trust her. And I feel Leon and Rock would trust Kiryu in turn, at least, if not Rika.

I mean "hey we should be careful using the cable cars" is a bit different than "we should dive off this cliff" which looks like just about the last thing you would wanna do here. Kiryu may have a loli-induced death wish but Leon and Rock dont.

Yeah I think Rika is taken seriously by everyone but Leon -- at first. Leon will take her seriously after she ends up being right.

Eddv posted...

I mean "hey we should be careful using the cable cars" is a bit different than "we should dive off this cliff" which looks like just about the last thing you would wanna do here. Kiryu may have a loli-induced death wish but Leon and Rock dont.

I'm pretty sure Mega Man just wants to help his friends and will do what he needs to. No chance is he scared to take a leap of faith.

PLUS Mega Man has Rush. He can literally escort people down the ravine. If Rika says it's the only way, there is no doubt in my mind that he uses Rush with his friends

Rush helps a ton

trdl23 posted...

Yeah I think Rika is taken seriously by everyone but Leon -- at first. Leon will take her seriously after she ends up being right.

Right but keep in mind Leon doesnt see the repetitions only Rika does. He has no idea if shes right

MajinZidane posted...

I'm pretty sure Mega Man just wants to help his friends and will do what he needs to. No chance is he scared to take a leap of faith.

PLUS Mega Man has Rush. He can literally escort people down the ravine. If Rika says it's the only way, there is no doubt in my mind that he uses Rush with his friends

Theres also really nothing stopping BJ from sniping them when they try that or stopping Samus from doing the bombing run in that situation either.

Theyre still able to look down the cable car causeway and see whats happening and see their foes.

So here's my current leanings:

-Yeah Team Mega Man grouping together really gets them blown up at chokepoints, doesn't it? Like I take Mega Man to survive a Power Bomb... I don't take anyone else, and it's a moot point if Rika goes.

-I do, however, think Rika is manipulative enough to convince everyone to listen to her. In a team of the indomitable dragon of Dojima, the man who's survived at least three undead outbreaks, and the super fighting robot, I am confident that the 10-year old girl can handle fear the best. So if she goes "don't use the cable car, it looks unsafe what if she has a second laser cannon" or "you've heard what she can do with bombs, if we're together our bones will melt into radioactive jelly together nipah~", she will. And I think the two grown men, robot, and robot dog will be scared enough to buy it.

-If Mega Man is able to beat Samus, the match is over. Frank West using a Mega Buster effortlessly melts humans just going pew pew pew, I think the actual article fired by someone who knows how to use it will get the job done.

-There are a LOT of gross strategies Mega Man can perform. Getting in a cheap shot by teleporting behind Samus, then freezing time so he can run around the corner and teleport away, only to do so again with Centaur Flash into Double Gear for a quicker getaway. The issue is, I don't know if he runs out of weapon energy before Samus manages to predict and react, or she just goes invisible at one point and Rock is like "huh where is she", to which Samus responds "right behind you" and drops bombs on him into next week. I do think Rock lives a bomb, but I think he's in a bad way and scared out of his mind.

-BJ pretty much has free reign to pick off Kiryu and Leon with everyone obsessed with Samus.

So my main concern is "with enough loops (before BJ eventually mercs Rika too often for it to matter), can Mega Man figure out a combination to kill Samus?" And... I honestly don't know. Rika would need the time to explain to him what combination of weapons don't work in each loop and give him a game plan, which eats up a ton of time, which increases the odds of OH NO SAMUS IS HERE or OH NO WE'RE BEING ATTACKED BY NAZI LIGHTNING. I really need to think of what combo of powers would actually secure Mega Man the kill, and how fast he'd go to those options; he has a LOT of options, after all!

Do we really think Mega Man needs some convoluted scheme to beat Samus? Maybe I'm missing something, but I think he can hold his own against her even when she has both her arms.

Its that shes got insane tanking feats with her lightning armor, has bullet time if she needs it and as of Metroid dread is dodgy as fuck.

And BJ has a laser that homes, stuns, and is extra deadly vs robots.

And does this:

https://youtu.be/ZdbK7ANStjc?t=512

GANON1025 posted...

Do we really think Mega Man needs some convoluted scheme to beat Samus? Maybe I'm missing something, but I think he can hold his own against her even when she has both her arms.

If Samus was a Mega Man boss I'd take her to have, like, at least five health bars.

Fully tanked up Samus just keeps GOING.

GANON1025 posted...

Do we really think Mega Man needs some convoluted scheme to beat Samus? Maybe I'm missing something, but I think he can hold his own against her even when she has both her arms.

Honestly, yeah, the thing that's missing is that Metroid Dread samus would 10-0 her past selves. She's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not a big Samus believer but I just look at that vid of her fighting Raven Beak Eddv posted and I'm like 'this is a ridiculous glowup, holy fuck'. Rock is stronger than in past iterations of mercs thanks to the Double Gear, but Samus' own gains are so enormous that I think she comes out very ahead. She never had the ability to just teleport-dash around before for example. And like, how's Rock gonna hit her with most of his arsenal when she's moving around like that?

True, Dread makes Samus look great. Maybe Im overestimating Mega Man then.

Admittedly Samus is also missing most of her offensive arsenal. It's really just power bombs and i guess shinesparks.

GANON1025 posted...

True, Dread makes Samus look great. Maybe Im overestimating Mega Man then.

As the Dude Who Owned Mega Man (TM) last mercs I have a ton of respect for Rock to be clear

It's just that Dread Samus is an unholy beast. Rock does awesomely against characters who are either a bit slower or a bit less tanky than her, but right now I think she's like the second most mobile character in the game besides Sonic and like the fifth tankiest on top. It's a real rough matchup for him.

Hbthebattle posted...

Admittedly Samus is also missing most of her offensive arsenal. It's really just power bombs and i guess shinesparks.

And dat screw attack in a pretty vertical terrain bay bay

I'm exhausted from hashing my thoughts out in discord but in summary, I just don't see a way for Team Megaman to pull it out here. The cable cars are never gonna make it to the castle, and they aren't quiet enough to get down into the water without alerting BJ or Samus, and if they do then Samus can probably kill them in the water while they're trying to swim for the secret entrance via either screw attack (lmao) or her lightning shield electrifying them. Rika's going to do her best, and her team will listen to her, but resets don't matter when the chance to succeed is a flat 0. This was won on terrain bids.

Castle CableCars Wins.

I am not sober and have skimmed barely any of this topic but my opinion is that any time rika tries to pipe up, Samus ability overrides and everyone just ignores her

given the circumstances she doesnt ooze leadership quite like the others

Mega Man with redos

The odds are stacked against them. Focusing down Samus instead of BJ is entirely to their detriment. They only need to get it right once, though, and I think they'll get a lot of redos. Nothing about Samus' ability prevents them from planning or waiting, and MM's team is overall trustworthy enough that they'll listen to a teammate telling them they should really, really do things this way.

Basically if they clutch it out 1/1000 times they win.

KamikazePotato posted...

Mega Man with redos

The odds are stacked against them. Focusing down Samus instead of BJ is entirely to their detriment. They only need to get it right once, though, and I think they'll get a lot of redos. Nothing about Samus' ability prevents them from planning or waiting, and MM's team is overall trustworthy enough that they'll listen to a teammate telling them they should really, really do things this way.

Basically if they clutch it out 1/1000 times they win.

You think they get 1000 replays?

BJ's team has every reason to hunker down and wait. They're not going to make the first move. If they do, then their entire game plan goes up in smoke and they just...straight-up lose.

For Rika, this is great, because the longer she can get her team to wait, the stronger her ability is. If she can get them to wait for 5 minutes before setting out, that's 10 replays minimum. Once she discovers that the enemy team has a bunch of traps laying in wait, she'll convince her team wait longer. If I'm doing the math correctly, waiting one day before setting out means she gets 2880 re-dos.

Basically the only way I don't see this happening is if Rika is an idiot who doesn't know how to use her own abilities.

There's no way they wait a day at all, tbqqqh

It's super out of character for Rika. She's not the type to kick back and rack up retries. The one thing she wants to do more than anything is help out others. It's also unbelievably unlikely that everyone else will agree to wait a whole day and have to fight on an empty stomach, just because 'it'll be very helpful to us, promise!'. Waiting a few minutes, sure, I can see that. Waiting a day, no chance, and especially not because Samus has both a sonar and an X-Ray visor to detect people deciding to just lounge around and do nothing. It'll cost her nothing to head on over to the other side, drop bombs to cave in the ceiling on them and then go back, for ex -- and once that happens, that's as far as the redos go.

Especially since like BJ just has to move to the snipers outpost to see the enemy team in plain view, why not take some shots?

KanzarisKelshen posted...

his Magnet Beam

Seems really good against this cable car ravine spill strat. Feel like with Rush plus that he has the tools

Upon considering all of the ability uses, I have come to the conclusion that there is a problem for team Samus. Team Mega Man know what she is capable of and at least Mega Man and Leon aren't exactly stupid. So why would either one of them in the first place think it is a good idea to ride a cable car to the other side when they know Samus can bomb them? Especially when they are said to be afraid of her? I don't know about you but if I was told someone I feared could bomb me I'd try to be as sneaky as possible and not ride something that if it is blown up will involve me getting killed.

This presents the second problem for the team Samus win condition. I think neither side is going to be in a real hurry to engage. Team Mega Man is going to probably need a long group chat about how to approach someone who can bomb them safely and I watched the video provided. That's a really big ravine.

I think without Rika I have no idea how to vote here. It's such a weird matchup because I don't see a great approach for Rock even with teleport and Rock is really the only one who can hurt Samus. On the other hand, team Samus' approach options are limited and rely on the enemy team to kind of be dumb when you consider they know what Samus can do to their team and the emotion driving them is fear. Probably lean Samus I guess since the terrain is super good.

However because both sides have every reason to take their time for different reasons, I think this plays right into Rika's hands of eventually coming up with something that works out for her team. Maybe they take the cable car the first time. Maybe. But I think that would be after a lot of conversation and trying to scout options and so when that inevitably fails Rika doesn't need to go 'guys trust me uwu' she can use logic like "Actually, Samus' Bombs make this a nonstarter!" and she can whip up that fear they are all feeling and it's a pretty easy thing not do a second time.

It's an interesting situation because I feel like everything here mattered a lot. It's probably painful for me to say this but I think making the enemy team aware of what Samus can do, in my mind, makes it more likely Rika's timer being long enough to make a big difference.

Also Leon's ability is so broken sometimes as without that Samus solos lol

Team Rika

No arm, no foul

Samus and BJ

Rika

I have to agree with the argument SirChris put up, the more times this replays, the more likely a strategy will go off without a problem.

"Not in a hurry to engage" doesn't mean Samus and BJ will sit there for a whole day and wait. All samus has to do is show herself and start running down the cable car wire and this group is going to have to jump into some kind of action because they're terrified of her and I can't see her not trying to goad them into it if they're spawn camped. Rika is not getting 2000 retries.

Okay yeah I take teleporty Mega Man over one arm Samus, especially with redos.

KamikazePotato posted...

If I'm doing the math correctly, waiting one day before setting out means she gets 2880 re-dos.

She gets 12 replays an hour, 24 hours. She gets 288 if this is done

I also think this is a completely unreasonable strategy and sounds like Gamefaqs Rika

I also think Samus would find and kill her well before 24 hours

I also think if the teams engage Rika dies first so the amount of useful information Rika gets will be little-- not sure why it's super useful to begin with.

Lopen posted...

I also think if the teams engage Rika dies first so the amount of useful information Rika gets will be little-- not sure why it's super useful to begin with.

Right people seem to assume rika is eventually gonna be able to mastermind something here and I think thats giving her a bit too much credit.

btw, if i am understanding rika correctly, here are her start points after n deaths for the first hour of match (baseline as start of battle for all lives):

1st Life: Start of Battle
2nd Life: 30 s into battle
3rd Life: 1 min 30 s into battle
4th Life: 3 min into battle
5th life: 5 min into battle
6th life: 7 min 30 s into battle
7th life: 10 min 30 s into battle
8th life: 14 min into battle
9th life: 18 min into battle
10th life: 22 min 30 s into battle
11th life: 27 min 30s into battle
12th life: 33 min into battle
13th life: 39 min into battle
14th life: 45 min 30s into battle
15th life: 52 min 30s into battle
16th life: 60 min into battle

she gets much less useful after a few deaths, since she can't affect anything before the start point for that loop - which includes enemy positioning

and of course the loops stop earlier if she dies a lot earlier (which i suspect she will)

I believe it's 30 60 90, no?

Yeah but the timer starts from the latest loop

I made the same error at first until I saw lopens post and had to reread carefully

Had a long think about this match:

-Rika gets a bunch of lives for sure. This match takes place on a very large terrain and a bit of camping is very expected.
-She doesn't get thousands of tries what the fuck. Not even if Bernakstel herself was actually possessing her would that be believable. This is a true 'GameFAQS Rika' argument if I ever saw one.
-Samus is gonna know where the enemy team is. She has X-Ray vision and a sonar. If she sees people bing chilling at the guard station she will simply go over there and bomb the ceiling and kill everyone but Rock, forcing a hard stopping point to the time loop scam strat. There is zero reasons she wouldn't attack foes who seem to be relaxed and have let their guard down.
-There isn't a good approach for the enemy team. The cable car leads to death by powerbomb. The tunnel means they have to go into the drink at some point and Samus can legitimately solo everyone with vastly hindered mobility via the Screw Attack. She doesn't need BJ if they take that approach.

The key thing that swings my vote is that I don't really see a way for Team Mega Man to actually get into Castle Wolfenstein at all. Rock can do it by teleporting, if you think Samus doesn't catch him with the visors, but that's it, and the only way his team wins relies on him landing at a spot where BJ can be hit, going for AoE when he's prioritizing Samus, and killing him to potentially very gradually grind a fight out against her, when there's an extremely high chance Rika's time loops simply run out from dying on the approach before they even start entertaining the 'Mega Man SOLOS in a very specific fashion' strat, because it's a fucking stupid one to take on the face of it if you don't know what BJ can do.

Team BJ takes it.

For some reason I read it as 5 minutes not 30 seconds. I also misread the ability entirely.

Anyway yeah its actually way less than 288 loops. The exact math is hard to determine I would need to actually write things down

By the 10th loop she's actually 30 + 90 + 180 + 300 + 450 + 630 + 840 + 1080 + 1350 + 1650 seconds into the match or 1 hour 50 minutes.