Board 8 > Star Trek Mafia - Topic 10: Try the Gagh

(+) Yeah! (+)

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Looking at your reread, one would assume there were only 3 players D1.

Who do you feel I'm leaving out that deserves more focus?

At this point I can't tell who is saying Occulams because they know it's a B8 meme, or if they've been gaslit into thinking that's the actual name of the term.

I will give you this, Ctes - Occulam's says if any of the three of you are Scum, it is you.

I can fully admit it's a possibility, and a strong one, that you are all Town. I don't think JC has really played the most Townish. And based on the info we have, it seems unlikely. But sure, with only one Scum flipping, we don't have enough data to know what's going on.

If Scum didn't get a kill two nights, it means they got blocked one, and either didn't believe Ulti or they assumed that the Doctor wouldn't save the other claimed power. It's more likely they shot Ulti N3, that in mind.

Or who knows, maybe they have the role we gave to Death in XBC3 mafia where they get to just bank kills.

PunishedBen posted...

Who do you feel I'm leaving out that deserves more focus?

Actually reading and making conclusions and not liveblogging.

Oh that's not a person.

Ben, you're pulling such a classic "look, activity!" move that like, I wouldn't be giving a damn about a lot you are saying even if you weren't focused on a bad conclusion.

But that's what it is - you're focused on a bad conclusion and you're dragging your feet.

Already said it, but sure will be a shame when today ends without you having even finished D1.

Ah you dismissed me idea for a strong team and immediately brought up something else. That's the point here.

You don't go about thinking scum is probably weak or weak numbered, it has lost town so many games here.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


When we recruited Death, we gave him a role that made it so that, instead of taking a shot for a night, we could bank it for another night.
Death was Cop before recruit, he got our main recruiter lynched, so everyone believed he was Cop from then on.
Then we banked kills so that Dumey could claim Doc, and when we had enough banked and mislynched Lopen because he kept coming up with ideas instead of being an emotionless sheep, we had like 3 kills at night and Town didn't have protection and we won.

Fun game, wouldn't have been possible if Town had reason to suspect there was a back-up Recruiter.

But it's a perfect example of how I can strategize as Scum, even if I'm not the best at playing it.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Ah you dismissed me idea for a strong team and immediately brought up something else.

If you are all 3 Town, that's what Occulam's says.

If Scum's only way to deal with a Cop, a Weak Tracker, a BP Doctor, and a Bus Driver/RB (which are both MUCH stronger than a Doctor)...

... is an unblockable, then yes, they are weak.

I told you already - they could have something else that could be some form of CC. Ben/BCT being untargetable, for example. But it's still not a whole lot.

What else could Scum have? Give me ideas.

I know I've focused on JC a lot, but Ctes, yours is the role that probably fits the least.

For people that consider if scum shoots vanilla mislynch option to make a fakeclaim - you all sure aren't willing to humor the idea of a scum team thinking they can win without Chris.

I stick to my point. Simplest answer by far regarding JC is that he's town and it should be seriously considered if anyone suggesting otherwise is trying to distract and/or keeping options available. It makes no sense to consider him presently.

ctesjbuvf posted...

For people that consider if scum shoots vanilla mislynch option to make a fakeclaim - you all sure aren't willing to humor the idea of a scum team thinking they can win without Chris.

I stick to my point. Simplest answer by far regarding JC is that he's town and it should be seriously considered if anyone suggesting otherwise is trying to distract and/or keeping options available. It makes no sense to consider him presently.

You're right. I think you are more likely scum than JC at this point.

And my previous notion that JC and BCT/Ben being opposite alignment should then inform me that I was right about BCT all along!

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Chris is probably intentionally wrong about Death so

##Unvote: JC
##Vote: Death

Hmm. So here Han has decided Chris is scum for coming at him, but uses that to make a vote on Death. I'm not fully following why Han says "Chris is intentionally wrong about Death". As far as i can tell Chris is not town reading Death. He voted him but it didnt result in anything and then moved to Han. Han do you remember why you singled out Death in relation to other people Chris had went after?

Ctes as truthful:

Town win:
1 lynch
NK redirected at Scum
1 lynch
vig kill

Town wins before D3 against 4 Scum, at end of D2 with 3 Scum

Scum win:
Mislynch
Kill, vig kill
Mislynch that Chris hammers

Scum wins at start of D3 with 4 Scum... with 3 Scum, they can't win with a perfect game until D5? Unless they get one Town to vote with them on D4 and then quick-hammer.

"Balanced" to the point of a quick game with 4 Scum either way, very very unbalanced with 3 Scum.

If 4 Scum and Ctes truthful, at that point I would expect a BP Scum in the set-up.

PunishedBen posted...

Hmm. So here Han has decided Chris is scum for coming at him, but uses that to make a vote on Death. I'm not fully following why Han says "Chris is intentionally wrong about Death". As far as i can tell Chris is not town reading Death. He voted him but it didnt result in anything and then moved to Han. Han do you remember why you singled out Death in relation to other people Chris had went after?

I went back to reread to remind myself and instantly encountered like 5 posts from Chris that put it in clear light that he's loosely pushing me, not putting his whole self on the line to directly say I'm Scum, but trying to clearly set me up with a mislynch with the words "you haven't shown me your town soul yet".

And yet you're ignoring those posts.

So I'm done rereading to answer your question because, at this point, it's not worth it while you're not in good faith reading up.

PunishedBen posted...

Who do you feel I'm leaving out that deserves more focus?

apparently Death

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Actually reading and making conclusions and not liveblogging.

Oh that's not a person.

Ben, you're pulling such a classic "look, activity!" move that like, I wouldn't be giving a damn about a lot you are saying even if you weren't focused on a bad conclusion.

But that's what it is - you're focused on a bad conclusion and you're dragging your feet.

Already said it, but sure will be a shame when today ends without you having even finished D1.

That is a shame but unfortunately I cant help it. I'm trying to fully understand the game before I do something drastic like lynch you! But yes I am leaning that way and admittedly have been leaning that way since I replaced in due to what I had seen of you. Always open to being convinced otherwise and I'd really like to get today right

If that's true, Ben, then write notes down as you go, stop posting to simulate activity, and give actual conclusions.

You're not playing like Town who wants to get things right.

One thing I still cant get past with Sultan and jc is how perfectly they seem made for each other as opposite alignments. Either sultan is lying scum or town drunk and a decoy for scum. It doesnt really have good implications for jc but Im not sure this meta piece is alone is a good reason for lynching jc.

Ctes said he hasnt used roleblock right and thats supposedly the last weapon in his Jack tool belt? Vig shot, redirect and roleblock, yeah?

wallmasterz posted...

One thing I still cant get past with Sultan and jc is how perfectly they seem made for each other as opposite alignments. Either sultan is lying scum or town drunk and a decoy for scum. It doesnt really have good implications for jc but Im not sure this meta piece is alone is a good reason for lynching jc.

I wouldn't expect "Drunk" to be the first, second, or even eighth thing to come to someone's mind when trying to come up with a claim.

And it would work again both alignments. It is a defense against Scum seeking power... or it is a distraction to Town seeking Scum.

In the scenario where all 3 of Ctes, JC, and Ulti are Town, then I would say Sultan certainly exists to gimp a Town JC.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Han and Dumey both said I was shot last night, right? Odds one slipped?

Bro, I hate to put you on the spot here, but can you like, idk, actually read the day?

"If JC is Scum, it would mean Scum shot Ulti".

That's the context.

I mean yeah Ive considered scum drunk sultan but he still moves and that seems like a handicapped role as scum, right?

UltimaterializerX posted...

Han and Dumey both said I was shot last night, right? Odds one slipped?

Was this not in response to Ctes talking about JC being scum, which would imply they did not shoot your save target?

Also I did post in my second post of the day that I thought it was more likely for scum to have shot you than shoot JC, just because I thought JC would be considered a viable lynch still. And if it was true that JC was shot at, then that means scum was afraid that one of the Vanilla's that JC might test would be caught moving.

killing scum who just bumps into people is still killing scum, good thing for town and kind of nerfed for scum

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Death was not in Chris' veto list, and i don't see a post super declaring Death town. Just less interest in pursuing him. The point that I thought was suspicious is that Han doesn't vote a mafia (Chris) and instead votes a town (Death) while simultaneously using "Chris is probably scum" as his reason for voting Death.

wallmasterz posted...

I mean yeah Ive considered scum drunk sultan but he still moves and that seems like a handicapped role as scum, right?

I'd say it's not a possibility. Why give Scum a role that always random visits someone when you could also have them just make the Scum shot? It seems a little pointless.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

If you are all 3 Town, that's what Occulam's says.

If Scum's only way to deal with a Cop, a Weak Tracker, a BP Doctor, and a Bus Driver/RB (which are both MUCH stronger than a Doctor)...

... is an unblockable, then yes, they are weak.

I told you already - they could have something else that could be some form of CC. Ben/BCT being untargetable, for example. But it's still not a whole lot.

What else could Scum have? Give me ideas.

I know I've focused on JC a lot, but Ctes, yours is the role that probably fits the least.

My whole point about Occulam was that you among others were trying some pretty twisted setup ideas to fit JC as scum and it sounded like stuff you'd usually use Occulam's to say was wrong. Other than my roleblock, my powers are extremely hit or miss. Not to mention they're all one-time use. I think you're making it sound stronger than it should considering we're in a game where they have helped scum more than town. They make the game more swingy than anything. Why do you need specific ideas of what scum could have? It's not important, they might make up for it in numbers anyway. Quit trying to setup meta and consider play.

EDumey posted...

You're right. I think you are more likely scum than JC at this point.

And my previous notion that JC and BCT/Ben being opposite alignment should then inform me that I was right about BCT all along!

What an unexpectedly bad post. Why are you turning it into me or JC here?

PunishedBen posted...

Death was not in Chris' veto list, and i don't see a post super declaring Death town. Just less interest in pursuing him. The point that I thought was suspicious is that Han doesn't vote a mafia (Chris) and instead votes a town (Death) while simultaneously using "Chris is probably scum" as his reason for voting Death.

I can't imagine coming up with statements like this without having read the end of day.

It's rich.

I also like how you correctly pointed out why Death looks bad from it, and just ignore that part.

Ben, I'll save you the time since clearly you won't get to the end of the day: I didn't want to lynch Chris. His arguments were bad on me - I thought it was closer to a 65-35 that he was Scum, but I still didn't and WOULD not want to lynch Chris Day 1.

wallmasterz posted...

One thing I still cant get past with Sultan and jc is how perfectly they seem made for each other as opposite alignments. Either sultan is lying scum or town drunk and a decoy for scum. It doesnt really have good implications for jc but Im not sure this meta piece is alone is a good reason for lynching jc.

I get the point, but were both not in your town list earlier?

wallmasterz posted...

Ctes said he hasnt used roleblock right and thats supposedly the last weapon in his Jack tool belt? Vig shot, redirect and roleblock, yeah?

Correct.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Bro, I hate to put you on the spot here, but can you like, idk, actually read the day?

"If JC is Scum, it would mean Scum shot Ulti".

That's the context.

And what a bad context that is.

Lea is a bit more time consuming to ISO than anyone else, but did she not back off Chris until he called her a coward and told her to vote him again?

ctesjbuvf posted...

Quit trying to setup meta and consider play.

I am doing that.

I am pretty convinced Ben is Scum at this point.
I also find your insistence to cower at the thought of set-up meta to be points against your favor.
As day goes, we talk, and we discuss, and some things get said, and some reads are found further set in stone. That's not changing based on my discussion. And I'm not completely distracted away from other things that this is the only thing I'm talking about.

Additionally, I think you're misrepresenting how "convoluted" things would have to be.
"Crescent targeted Scum Godfather JC" is not convoluted.
"Ctes and JC are both Scum" is not convoluted.
"Ctes's role is really strong for the apparent lack of Scum power" is not convoluted.

And in a "smaller" game of 14 players, having 1-time use powers is not "weaker". Crescent had infinite uses, and she only got to use the results of whatever she did N1 once.

And btw

ctesjbuvf posted...

it should be seriously considered if anyone suggesting otherwise is trying to distract and/or keeping options available. It makes no sense to consider him presently.

This is how we got Lopen mislynched in XBC3 mafia. By framing his ideation as Scum behavior.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I checked. You unvoted him, he said that,n you said "foreshadowing" but didn't get on him for another few pages. That's not zero percent.

ctesjbuvf posted...

What an unexpectedly bad post. Why are you turning it into me or JC here?

Because as noble as you trying to clear JC's name is, the point stands that we need to entertain the idea that not all scum are hiding in just Vanillas, and the conversation we've been having for the last day is about whether or not the setup makes sense with all claimed power. Yours is the one that stands out. So if JC were scum, it might make you look better, but if JC is town, it makes you look worse. I'm not putting it in a binary situation, but I'm clarifying that for the people doing setup meta right now, you are the one that looks out of place here.

ctesjbuvf posted...

And what a bad context that is.

And what the hell response is this? Why are you getting so aggro and accusatory of Han RESPONDING TO THE HYPOTHETICAL THAT YOU PRESENTED?

All of this discussion has also helped me think that Sultan has 0% chance of being Scum, so

I guess my question is how much weight do I put in the potential scum slips Wallz made this morning. I thought walls looked pretty good going into today and he has made some floundering posts today.

Does my thoughts on Ctes being scum stoll ring true. I do find it odd he let us go on a wild goose chase looming for free Redirector when it was him and we mislyched Isquen beacuse we were looking in the vanilla... like he could maybe have prevented that mislynch maybe not but I feel like with holding the information was a bit detrimental to town and he wasn't even going to claim it today until pressured and that is also anti town. It was a 1 use so he says so why not just claim it from the get go??.

Sultan, can you elucidate on potential slips from Wall?

I don't find your unease at Ctes for not claiming upfront an issue, BUT I don't think it's fair to attribute Isquen's lynch to him not full claiming.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Sultan, can you elucidate on potential slips from Wall?

I don't find your unease at Ctes for not claiming upfront an issue, BUT I don't think it's fair to attribute Isquen's lynch to him not full claiming.

I wasn't fully baliming it on him no I was just saying it could have changed prospective a bit

As for Walls ill go grab those few posts

HanOfTheNekos posted...

All of this discussion has also helped me think that Sultan has 0% chance of being Scum, so

We agree on this

Topic 9 372 to like 388 area Wallz and my interactions this morning.

I chalked up the ine part of saying I have the privilege of knowing I'm not town as a typo but everything else reads in an area of knowing to much