Current Events > ''This whole country mollycoddles Christians and I'm fuckin tired of it''

(+) Yeah! (+)

IceCreamOnStero posted...

No one should be

I think us atheists have the luxury of pointing out all the moral flaws and shortcomings of all the Abrahamic religions and their often awful track record when in power, without anyone being able to jab an accusing finger back at us about our own religion. #smug mode :-)

Patriotwolf posted...

Says we coddle Christians but Muslims stomp and set fire to a pride flag and nothing is said because people are too afraid to be labeled Islamaphobic

Those Muslims are bigot ****s as well. Oh look, I said something against them!

It's not a one size fits all thing. Christians still hold way, way too much institutional power and sway in the US, but it's much more socially OK to criticize them. Other religions don't have as much power, but socially criticizing them is often more likely to be seen by some people as phobic due to the same exact issue. I don't think coddling is the right word, but people walk on eggshells around certain issues because they don't want to be put in the same box as actual bigots.

Vampire_Chicken posted...

I think us atheists have the luxury of pointing out all the moral flaws and shortcomings of all the Abrahamic religions and their often awful track record when in power

I agree. Nowhere did I say any one religion should be exclusively criticised, the Abrahamic ones are all barbaric and backwards.

without anyone being able to jab an accusing finger back at us about our own religion.

I don't have a religion

IceCreamOnStero posted...

I don't have a religion

Exactly.

Nemu posted...

It's not a one size fits all thing. Christians still hold way, way too much institutional power and sway in the US, but it's much more socially OK to criticize them. Other religions don't have as much power, but socially criticizing them is often more likely to be seen by some people as phobic due to the same exact issue. I don't think coddling is the right word, but people walk on eggshells around certain issues because they don't want to be put in the same box as actual bigots.

Because it often times IS. Also people are getting hung up on the definition of coddling while ignoring the actual definition.

1.
treat in an indulgent or overprotective way.
"I was coddled and cosseted"

Christians in this country absolutely are indulged with laws and regulations bent around the whims of their beliefs. Allowing people of other faith to go to another room to pray isn't coddling, forcing the entire classroom to sit through your pray IS.

Vampire_Chicken posted...

at us about our own religion.

I wouldn't even give them that as atheism isn't a religion. Religious people love to call atheist of being religious too and its incorrect.

Atheist do not share the same pursuit of systems, faith or interest to which atheists attribute to be important. There's no great book or godly figure atheist turn to for interpretation of morals and teachings. Theres nothing to interpret. So when a religious person loves to point at a particular atheist(s) those atheists are following a system of interest, beliefs and morals that have nothing to do with any interpretations of how to be a proper atheist.

Religions like Christianity for example do however have multiple interpretations based on their book on how to be a proper Christian. Those interpretations often end up in a no true Scotsman territory, but the point remains theres multiple interpretations of the religion that guides the principles of Christianity.

Just to send a signal loud and clear about this: no one should be afraid to stand up for the human and civil rights of all religious minorities who suffer genuine discrimination and persecution, anywhere in the world. Holding a grudge against wealthy, comfortable, and powerful Christians in your own country should in absolutely no way dissuade you from being prepared to defend marginalized Christian communities that are under attack either from sectarian terrorism or theocratic (or atheistic) governments.

KanWan posted...

Ethics and morals would have never existed without the idea of previous religions religion.

Atheists develop a moral compass on their own.

KanWan posted...

Ethics and morals would have never existed without the idea of previous religions religion.

Ethics and morals would exist without religion.

Just because you need a fairy in the sky to tell you stomping on babies heads is morally wrong, doesn't mean everyone else needs it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality

There's plenty of evidence morality is a result of evolution. A species that helps each other will get much farther than one that cannibalizes itself. Religious people give religion too much credit.

She's absolutely right.

For a "free" country, we sure do love forcing Christian ideology on everyone else

What a shock, PatriotWolf has shown up to "whatabout Islam" again

KanWan posted...

Putting morals and ethics in the bubble of atheism means the same morals and ethics can be completely dismantled by its own rationale. Theres no reason those morals and ethics should apply, theres no enforcement of those morals as theres no applicable truth that applies to anyone atheist.

You've proved morality is subjective, you haven't proved it doesn't exist.

KanWan posted...

Putting morals and ethics in the bubble of atheism means the same morals and ethics can be completely dismantled by its own rationale. Theres no reason those morals and ethics should apply, theres no enforcement of those morals as theres no applicable truth that applies to anyone atheist.

You cant separate culture from the people, Im not saying theres no such thing as an atheistic culture but its incredibly close taking away the main selling point of atheism the more you begin to form that up.

Fairy in the sky, a big turtle, whatever you wanna call it it intersects through a lot more cultures than other ideas which is why it caught on in the first place honestly

I think Id rather have a fairy in the sky than a bunch of staunch man babies any day though

You have said absolutely nothing that established morals and ethics needed religion to exist.

If you need this fairy in the sky or magic turtle or whatever to tell you to not stomp on babies heads, or even believe we need religion to tell us this..... it says far more about you.

The level of delusion some religious people convince themselves. Not everyone born turns to a religion for morals and ethics. So your religion can't birth something a person wasn't turning to in the first place to determine morals and ethics.

Man, I'm not even an atheist/agnostic, but the argument that morals can't exist independent of religion is complete bunk.

NatsuSama posted...

The level of delusion some religious people convince themselves. Not everyone born turns to a religion for morals and ethics. So your religion can't birth something a person wasn't turning to in the first place to determine morals and ethics.

Also, with how often I've heard stories of people who had "deeply religious parents" growing up, and the experience both damaged AND drove them away from that religion, I get the feeling that not only can morals and decency exist without religion... they thrive without it.

What stops me from murdering someone? Besides pragmatism? The fact I'd feel like shit afterward. Because of my conscience. That is, my functioning brain. That is where my morals come from. Not adherence to an ancient book (that people pick and choose from anyway).

KanWan posted...

All I said was that they are born from religion, to say they dont is completely disingenuous

What you are claiming is incorrect and disingenuous at best.

Morals and ethics were not born from religion. Regardless if your religion tells you this. Regardless if your religion has a set of interpretations of how to have upstanding morals and ethics.

Morals and ethics would exist without religion as morals and ethics vary from person to person, from culture to culture and region to region. Ones compass of right/wrong and ethics would exist regardless of religions existence.

KanWan posted...

nothing wrong with paying your dues, even the idea of atheism comes from the split of something else.. that something else is religion

This feels like you're saying "religion is the default, atheism is a reaction."

Hard disagree there.

KanWan posted...

Theres plenty of evidence for it once you get past the hate boner for religion.

If there's plenty of evidence why aren't you posting any?

KanWan posted...

Im not here to prove morality doesnt exist outside of religion I am in 110% favor of that in fact (see Immanuel Kant). It would be atheists in this case that wouldnt think so seeing as how theres no evidence or proof of them neither here nor there.

There is extensive proof that humans abide by (their subjective) moral codes.

Dark_Arbron posted...

This feels like you're saying "religion is the default, atheism is a reaction."

Hard disagree there.

Yup.

Atheism would be the default. Humans didn't come out of the womb naturally believing in God.

Religion itself is humanity's attempts to explain, contextualize and interpret the unexplainable, making it a reaction by default.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Yup.

Atheism would be the default. Humans didn't come out of the womb naturally believing in God.

Religion itself is humanity's attempts to explain, contextualize and interpret the unexplainable, making it a reaction by default.

And in the modern era, it's a weed that persists even though the things it was created to explain have already (partly) been explained, and the gaps will continue to be filled because science is an ongoing process.

The Abrahamic religions have done well to last this long, and you'd need a historian far better educated than me to explain why*, but eventually it will be considered a myth, without controversy, the same way Egyptian and Greek mythologies are.

*Though if I had to take a guess, it would be some combination of winning the right wars, colonizing the right lands and establishing lasting power structures.

KanWan posted...

Your conscience develops from where then? Think of what surrounds you the good?

I rest my case

Conscience developed from the brain which evolved from successful behavioral selection and adaptation in mammals. Not the magic good permeating the air lol

KanWan posted...

All I said was that they are born from religion, to say they dont is completely disingenuous

nothing wrong with paying your dues, even the idea of atheism comes from the split of something else.. that something else is religion

No.

KanWan posted...

The same proofs an atheist has are the same proofs religion have

No.

If someone raised on a remote island figures out the theory of relativity on their own, you can't really claim they stole from Einstein. Just because some people took common sense ideals and attributed them to a mystical being thousands of years ago, doesn't mean all common sense is derived from magic.

Bad_Mojo posted...

I don't see Christians get excused from class to go pray by themselves, tbh. I don't see shit talking Christians accused of hate speech.

But no, there isn't a lie here

I mean school schedules basically work around Christian religious practices. Christian kids have weekends off, and winter and spring break used to just be called Christmas and Easter break respectively.

If all you have are your beliefs then you have nothing. Beliefs are not real, you can believe anything to be true...

KanWan posted...

Your conscience develops from where then? Think of what surrounds you the good?

I rest my case

My religion does not

Facts, science, philosophy hell even atheism at one point form up the idea I want to get much closer to religion than not and this is after a basic rejection of the thing

Carl Jung said it best

So you don't know what fact and science are then. Explains a lot.

This entire post has way too much to unpack that you thought any of it is backed by actual science and facts instead of your religion.

I'm honestly impressed at how much he's posting without actually saying anything at all.

Scouts sided with christians (just christians only) about working on Sundays. Now employers have to make exceptions for christians who don't wanna work on Sundays. Seems like coddling to me

KanWan posted...

the rest of my understanding of the world as it pertains to me, nor am I interested in convincing anyone of any other idea other that religion has brought some good to the world

More than we care to admit it seems

Your understanding of the world is not fact and science. Just your truths. Your truths =/= facts and science.

Your belief that humans wouldn't have morals and ethics without religion is by no means fact or scientific in anyway.

As for a strictly different topic you just brought of religion doing at least some good for the world. No one here said it didn't do any good for specific groups of people. We know for some it provides specific types of people a sense of community and purpose. So for those type of people it did good.

That said, your beliefs that religion provided everyone morals and ethics is by no means a fact and by no means backed by science. Humans are not born believing in whatever mythical, mystical, spiritual or whatever being your religion prays, worships, pours faith into.

There's no real reason to respond to KanWan. He's not seriously engaging in any debate and it would be very hard for passive onlookers to believe he is.

Nirvanas_Nox posted...

Scouts sided with christians (just christians only) about working on Sundays. Now employers have to make exceptions for christians who don't wanna work on Sundays. Seems like coddling to me

Also never forget Hobby "What about my religious right to deny my employees healthcare I claim my religion disagrees with" Lobby.

Dude's somehow still spewing meaningless drivel and managing to not say anything at all, it's impressive.