Current Events > What is Hamas' endgame?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Aitz posted...

Oh please, no need to stereotype all Islamist people as supporters of genocide

This. The whole situation is already a touchy subject to begin with, thus we dont need to ratchet up the tension even further by throwing out nonsensical generalizations.

That goes for both parties currently at war with each other by the way, before somebody accuses me of picking one side over the other.

I mean, the quick version is that the Jewish people were hunted and exterminated in the early 20th century, leading to an extremely large refugee population. UN agreement was made to allow them to settle in Palestine, but the Muslim population felt like this was an invasion of their land. There was a lot of violence in this time, which led to a lot of talk about setting up independent states, largely that the Muslim Palestinians rejected, and since then Israel has slowly but surely been expanding their land in the area, taking over what little Palestinians had left.

This led to Palestinians to get in bed with Hamas, an explicitly anti-semetic terrorist group, and that group has been attacking population centers of Israel while using the citizens of Palestine as cover. This leads to a lot of bloodshed, and here we are.

But this is very very simplified, and just from my vague memory, so take it with a grain of salt.

Go out fighting instead of letting Israel complete their genocide?

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

UN agreement was made to allow them to settle in Palestine, but the Muslim population felt like this was an invasion of their land.

From what I've heard the agreement was made without local Muslim representation, thus contributing to their grievances.

Whether or not that's true however, I'll leave to someone better informed than me to say.

Dark_Arbron posted...

From what I've heard the agreement was made without local Muslim representation, thus contributing to their grievances.

Whether or not that's true however, I'll leave to someone better informed than me to say.

I don't believe they were a part of the UN at the time, correct.

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

I don't believe they were a part of the UN at the time, correct.

Yeah, in which case it would be a legitimate grievance if they weren't even consulted. That might as well be an invasion.

Palestinians obviously have reasonable grievances, particular modern Palestinians. But Palestinians are not Hamas, despite the fact that they elected Hamas into power. We should also be aware that a two state solution has never really been something that Palestine has wanted, and certainly not something that Hamas wants.

Dark_Arbron posted...

From what I've heard the agreement was made without local Muslim representation, thus contributing to their grievances.

Whether or not that's true however, I'll leave to someone better informed than me to say.

This is correct. There was then the Nakba, where the Zionist militias intentionally killed 15k people and forcibly relocated thousands upon thousands of Palestinians for the purpose of creating the Jewish majority. It was absolutely an act of ethnic cleansing.

Dark_Arbron posted...

Yeah, in which case it would be a legitimate grievance if they weren't even consulted. That might as well be an invasion.

I'd say so. Mistakes were made in the last and apparently the people of today have to pay for it, which is ridiculous. It's like having a bunch of other countries decide that you have to give up your land and then a ton of other places just support this happening.

Tbh, this is largely out of hand because of other country involvement.

MARKINGRAM22 posted...

Is that why they killed that German girl by breaking her leg and parading around her body and using her as a seat cushion until she died???

They knew she was German?

KiwiTerraRizing posted...

Go out fighting instead of letting Israel complete their genocide?

There is a huge difference between Hamas and Palestine.

ArtiRock posted...

Tbh, this is largely out of hand because of other country involvement.

One reason why "can't they just get along?" doesn't work given Israel is heavily backed by the US.

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

Palestinians obviously have reasonable grievances, particular modern Palestinians. But Palestinians are not Hamas, despite the fact that they elected Hamas into power. We should also be aware that a two state solution has never really been something that Palestine has wanted, and certainly not something that Hamas wants.

Yeah, in another topic wasn't it pointed out that something like 40% of Palestinians weren't even born when the last election happened? That's a significant shift in demographic.

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

Palestinians obviously have reasonable grievances, particular modern Palestinians. But Palestinians are not Hamas, despite the fact that they elected Hamas into power. We should also be aware that a two state solution has never really been something that Palestine has wanted, and certainly not something that Hamas wants.

This. Conflating Hamas with Palestine is exactly what Israel wants.

Dark_Arbron posted...

From what I've heard the agreement was made without local Muslim representation, thus contributing to their grievances.

Whether or not that's true however, I'll leave to someone better informed than me to say.

I'm fairly sure they simply refused to participate in any kind of negotiation that would result in the establishment of the state of Israel.

Paragon21XX posted...

I'm fairly sure they simply refused to participate in any kind of negotiation that would result in the establishment of the state of Israel.

See, this would change the context heavily. Hence why I'm tentative about making any definitive statements.

Sadly my dad sees Hamas and Palestine as the same, along with Russia and the Russian army.

SayHeyyShohei posted...

This. Conflating Hamas with Palestine is exactly what Israel wants.

This is why they need new elections ASAP in Palestine. The current government there don't have a mandate imo and they've not had an election since 2006. 17 years ago. Considering 50% of the population is 19 years old and younger it's about time they did.

Paragon21XX posted...

I'm fairly sure they simply refused to participate in any kind of negotiation that would result in the establishment of the state of Israel.

Do you blame them? I mean imagine if Americans were forced to give back all the native land they stole. Do you think Americans would accept a 2 state solution?

Cheater87 posted...

Sadly my dad sees Hamas and Palestine as the same, along with Russia and the Russian army.

I think a lot of people on this board do as well tbh In a lot of the UKraine war topics we've had over the last 12 months there is little distinction made between Russian Politics and the Russian Civilians.

ClayGuida posted...

Do you blame them? I mean imagine if Americans were forced to give back all the native land they stole. Do you think Americans would accept a 2 state solution?

I would. I think if there were any large refugee population after a large genocidal event, many many Americans would support bringing them in.

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

I would. I think if there were any large refugee population after a large genocidal event, many many Americans would support bringing them in.

Like Syrian refugees?

SHRlKE posted...

I think a lot of people on this board do as well tbh In a lot of the UKraine war topics we've had over the last 12 months there is little distinction made between Russian Politics and the Russian Civilians.

Don't Putin and his war have majority civilian support?

Dark_Arbron posted...

Don't Putin and his war have majority civilian support?

All media in Russia is state run so if Russian news said that it is just the regime saying that.

ClayGuida posted...

Like Syrian refugees?

Who is it that had issues with Syrian refugees?

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

Who is it that had issues with Syrian refugees?

The entire Republican party and every red state, as well as a majority of the US population, due to that fear mongering.

ClayGuida posted...

The entire Republican party and every red state, as well as a majority of the US population, due to that fear mongering.

What's their rationale?

ClayGuida posted...

The entire Republican party and every red state, as well as a majority of the US population, due to that fear mongering.

I think we can all agree that how right-wingers view refugees, both in the west and east, is fucked.

I think "what would republicans do?" is a really shitty standard to hold people to.

I continue to be convinced that people that say Israel wants to "genocide" palestine, in context of this discussion (where Hamas literally wants to exterminate all the Jews) are just trying to troll or be edgelords. Like one group literally tells citizens where they are going to be bombing to try to minimize civilian casualties. That alone says a LOT. The other group targets civilians as their goal and constantly attempts to attack them.

Please imagine for a moment what would happen if Hamas had the same military power that Israel did. And as bad as you think Israel is to Palestine, if things were reversed they would be far worse. Israel is not great for sure but they are much better than Hamas and anybody drawing an equivalence....its just weird. People are defending people that are absolutely awful and would lead a country FAR worse than israel if given the chance.

Its true that Israel keeps a tight lock on Gaza and has treated them poorly but for people that talk about the open-air prison could that be because people from there are always trying to kill and terrorist attack the Israelis? And after the Holocaust where people LEGITIMATELY tried to genocide the Jews, they are most likely defensive of the one Jewish country that exists (which apparently people think should not exist)

Like people are just completely ignoring the role that anti-semitism plays in this.

You would honestly think the people talking about Hamas are on the right, not left, but apparently the left of all people have decided to support the genocidal terrorists and be proud of it?

None of this is to say that Israel is good or has not done bad things, but when held next to Hamas its not even the same level

SHRlKE posted...

What's their rationale?

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/17/us/politics/gop-governors-vow-to-close-doors-to-syrian-refugees.html

Ask the 25 Republican governors.

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

I would. I think if there were any large refugee population after a large genocidal event, many many Americans would support bringing them in.

Supporting refugees is entirely different from telling Americans you have to give up what you own and give it away.

That proposed idea isn't going to fly too well.

A vastly overwhelming majority of people if not literally all Americans were born AFTER anything the United States Government did. So anyone who owns any land being told they must give it up is definitely going to be met with resistance.

ClayGuida posted...

Do you blame them? I mean imagine if Americans were forced to give back all the native land they stole. Do you think Americans would accept a 2 state solution?

I would, because my belief that we committed a genocide against them doesn't stop the moment it inconveniences me.

Dark_Arbron posted...

Don't Putin and his war have majority civilian support?

By "support" you mean they agree to say the things that won't get them gunned down or imprisoned.

HHH_is_the_game posted...

I continue to be convinced that people that say Israel wants to "genocide" palestine, in context of this discussion (where Hamas literally wants to exterminate all the Jews) are just trying to troll or be edgelords. Like one group literally tells citizens where they are going to be bombing to try to minimize civilian casualties. That alone says a LOT. The other group targets civilians as their goal and constantly attempts to attack them.

Please imagine for a moment what would happen if Hamas had the same military power that Israel did. And as bad as you think Israel is to Palestine, if things were reversed they would be far worse. Israel is not great for sure but they are much better than Hamas and anybody drawing an equivalence....its just weird. People are defending people that are absolutely awful and would lead a country FAR worse than israel if given the chance.

Its true that Israel keeps a tight lock on Gaza and has treated them poorly but for people that talk about the open-air prison could that be because people from there are always trying to kill and terrorist attack the Israelis? And after the Holocaust where people LEGITIMATELY tried to genocide the Jews, they are most likely defensive of the one Jewish country that exists (which apparently people think should not exist)

Like people are just completely ignoring the role that anti-semitism plays in this.

You would honestly think the people talking about Hamas are on the right, not left, but apparently the left of all people have decided to support the genocidal terrorists and be proud of it?

None of this is to say that Israel is good or has not done bad things, but when held next to Hamas its not even the same level

Are you aware of what the Nakba was and it's role in creating the current state of Israel?

Kimbos_Egg posted...

Oh yes, keep defending terrorists who don't even live in Palestine.

That actually makes it worse. Why would Israel kill so many non terrorists?

ScazarMeltex posted...

Are you aware of what the Nakba was and it's role in creating the current state of Israel?

So are you going to acknowledge that it was in response to the 1948 War where a league of arab nations attempted to wipe Israel off the map the moment it was declared a state? Are you going to go a half step back before that where the 1947 partition map as rejected by the Palestinian people, opting instead to go to war to kill everyone and take all of the land in the partition plan? Are you then going to go even further back and point out that the partition was made in response to the collapse of the ottoman empire, under which Israel was one of like a dozen countries that was formed, and yet no one ever seems to claim that the boundaries of Iraq or Syria are invalid because they were made by the League of Nations and the UN at the exact same time as israel?

Or are you going to do that thing where you remove all of the history and context leading up to those events so that it doesn't look like Israel was responding to an attempt to genocide every single Jewish person that lived within the boundaries of that country so that you can try and make them look like some kind of objective bad guy while they're in the middle of fighting a terrorist organization that has the global eradication of the Jewish people in their charter.

HHH_is_the_game posted...

Stop whiteknighting.
Where will you flee when they send bomb warnings everywhere you can go?
They sent no warning when they used battleships to kill kids playing soccer on the beach.
There are amnesty reports showing that they target civilians with no traces of Hamas.
They didnt create the open-air prison because of Hamas, the open-air prison created Hamas.

ClayGuida posted...

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/17/us/politics/gop-governors-vow-to-close-doors-to-syrian-refugees.html

Ask the 25 Republican governors.

I'm asking you.

The problem as I see it here, is that much like we have to separate Israel's far right government from citizens and Jewish individuals, we also have to separate Hamas from the greater Palestinian people.

The unfortunate and sad circumstance here, is that "the west" simply does not value the lives and rights of Palestinians who have suffered under an apartheid state for years. So often the media and politicians will conflate all Palestinians with Hamas militants which makes it easier to dehumanize them and justify any brutal response from the Israeli military.

Also, it's important to note that many of the leading voices speaking out against the apartheid state in the Palestinian territories are Jewish, and well versed in the history and politics of the situation.

HHH_is_the_game posted...

I continue to be convinced that people that say Israel wants to "genocide" palestine, in context of this discussion (where Hamas literally wants to exterminate all the Jews) are just trying to troll or be edgelords.

Edit: found a clip of just that part
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb86oDsousI

pnut027 posted...

That actually makes it worse. Why would Israel kill so many non terrorists?

40% of Palestine's people were not even born when Hamas were elected into power. Alongside this, there has been exponential pushback against Hamas from within Palestine's borders. These would be the same non terrorists that Israel continues to kill.

Without going further into it, Hamas and Israel share a common goal. Hamas wants to stay in power, Israel wants to take over the state. I'll let your mind go from here. Just know that both parties want the same group of people out of the picture to fulfill their own separate interests.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Edit: found a clip of just that part
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb86oDsousI

I have no idea who that is but its a bad take.

Torgo posted...

The unfortunate and sad circumstance here, is that "the west" simply does not value the lives and rights of Palestinians who have suffered under an apartheid state for years.

The harsh truth is, neither to the Arabs or Persians. To them the Palestinians are nothing more than a wedge to use against Israel.

HHH_is_the_game posted...

I have no idea who that is but its a bad take.

Only if he is speaking on behalf of defending Hamas. But he's not.

Never forget how Kuwait deported over 100k Palestinians(I forget the exact number) Immediately after we liberated them from Iraq.

ScazarMeltex posted...

I would, because my belief that we committed a genocide against them doesn't stop the moment it inconveniences me.

More power to you if you would, I doubt most would.

Buying something like a house or even a small business is already tough on low and middle class Americans. I don't see most just giving up their homes or businesses because the United States Government did something before their great great+ grandfather was even born.

The idea that the children must atone for something their government did centuries ago, I dont see such an idea winning over the hearts of people who are struggling to make ends meet and were not the ones who committed those past deeds dated decades and even centuries before they even existed.

s0nicfan posted...

So are you going to acknowledge that it was in response to the 1948 War where a league of arab nations attempted to wipe Israel off the map the moment it was declared a state? Are you going to go a half step back before that where the 1947 partition map as rejected by the Palestinian people, opting instead to go to war to kill everyone and take all of the land in the partition plan? Are you then going to go even further back and point out that the partition was made in response to the collapse of the ottoman empire, under which Israel was one of like a dozen countries that was formed, and yet no one ever seems to claim that the boundaries of Iraq or Syria are invalid because they were made by the League of Nations and the UN at the exact same time as israel?

Or are you going to do that thing where you remove all of the history and context leading up to those events so that it doesn't look like Israel was responding to an attempt to genocide every single Jewish person that lived within the boundaries of that country so that you can try and make them look like some kind of objective bad guy while they're in the middle of fighting a terrorist organization that has the global eradication of the Jewish people in their charter.

Which makes it even scarier when members of the Israeli government are now saying they need a Nakba in Gaza. The citizens of both countries need to rise up above their oppressive leadership that uses their lives as fodder. Israel needs to stop electing far right shitheads and Palestinians need to get out from under terrorist rule.

SHRlKE posted...

I'm asking you.

I linked you. Read.

Same as Israel. To eradicate the other nation down to the man over some nonsense mythology.

asdf8562 posted...

More power to you if you would, I doubt most would.

Buying something like a house or even a small business is already tough on low and middle class Americans. I don't see most just giving up their homes or businesses because the United States Government did something before their great great+ grandfather was even born.

There's a reason someone unknowingly buying a stolen item isn't legally liable for the theft.