Current Events > What is Hamas' endgame?

(+) Yeah! (+)

ClayGuida posted...

Which makes it even scarier when members of the Israeli government are now saying they need a Nakba in Gaza. The citizens of both countries need to rise up above their oppressive leadership that uses their lives as fodder. Israel needs to stop electing far right shitheads and Palestinians need to get out from under terrorist rule.

This I agree with. And obviously Israel has done awful things as well.

SayHeyyShohei posted...

Only if he is speaking on behalf of defending Hamas. But he's not.

The thing is that the situations are not equivalent. He leaves out how often Israel gets attacked by the people around them (and that's been the case since the beginning). He also leaves out that if the roles were reversed, as bad as you might think things are for palestinians in Israel, it would be so much worse the opposite way. I still think if Hamas has Israel's military power, then Israel is just wiped out.

I can understand thinking the conflict is complex (it is) and that Israel has committed awful acts themselves (they have) but its not even. And I think people neglect to talk about how antisemitism plays a role

You know, a massive amount of people born after the election of Hamas do not believe in the ethnic cleansing of Jews and Israel's people. There are strong pushbacks from within Palestine's borders to oust Hamas that is served with tyranny from their own government.

So disregarding what happened in 1948, it would probably be pretty stupid for Israel to attack Palestine instead of, idk, help its citizens overthrow Hamas. But that would require Israel regarding Palestinians as people, so it's a no-go for them.

Like I said before. Hamas and Israel share a common interest in their own separate goals. This was bait, and Israel is going to take it. Hamas wants to lose the battle but win the war. This is exactly how they accomplish that.

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

I would. I think if there were any large refugee population after a large genocidal event, many many Americans would support bringing them in.

What fictional America do you live in? We're lucky if we get 50/50 support on genocide victims within our own borders.

SayHeyyShohei posted...

So disregarding what happened in 1948, it would probably be pretty stupid for Israel to attack Palestine instead of, idk, help its citizens overthrow Hamas. But that would require Israel regarding Palestinians as people, so it's a no-go for them.

I think this is the best solution for everyone, but how do you do this? How do you even know who you can trust and who's a terrorist?

s0nicfan posted...

So are you going to acknowledge that it was in response to the 1948 War where a league of arab nations attempted to wipe Israel off the map the moment it was declared a state? Are you going to go a half step back before that where the 1947 partition map as rejected by the Palestinian people, opting instead to go to war to kill everyone and take all of the land in the partition plan? Are you then going to go even further back and point out that the partition was made in response to the collapse of the ottoman empire, under which Israel was one of like a dozen countries that was formed, and yet no one ever seems to claim that the boundaries of Iraq or Syria are invalid because they were made by the League of Nations and the UN at the exact same time as israel?

Or are you going to do that thing where you remove all of the history and context leading up to those events so that it doesn't look like Israel was responding to an attempt to genocide every single Jewish person that lived within the boundaries of that country so that you can try and make them look like some kind of objective bad guy while they're in the middle of fighting a terrorist organization that has the global eradication of the Jewish people in their charter.

Anybody with with any knowledge of the region post WW1 will argue that borders of every country that came out of it are garbage. Most of the problems you have today in the region still stem from those borders.

Hell the borders that were drawn in Eastern Europe were garbage as well, that's how you got countries like Yugoslavia with upwards of 7 ethnic groups who didn't like each other in it. Or Czechloslovakia, where Czechs and Slovaks (who hated each other) crammed in with Germans. It's always a bad idea to have weirdo power brokers with something to gain from discord draw your borders.

Regardless of what the Nakba was in response to ethnic cleansing isn't a justifiable course to take. Also in what reality should the Arab Palestinians have accepted European involvement in partitioning their land? Would you have if you were them? Especially when the last time they did it you got ridiculous shit like Syria and Iraq, and Kurds ending up without a state and being minorities in 5 different countries.

That being said the Arab League's solution of "well if we invade and just wipe them all out or displace them then Europeans can't create a state for them here" is also absolutely an attempt at genocide as well.

Well meaning European involvement (at best) is the chief cause of the problem if you want to go back all the way to the root of the modern problems there.

It's like I said originally, there is no acceptable solution to both parties that will lead to a just and lasting peace because both groups have long standing and legitimate grievances. Obviously Hamas needs to be removed and elections held because they absolutely do not represent the interests of Palestinians, if they did they wouldn't have immediately suspended future elections the moment they gained power.

HHH_is_the_game posted...

I think this is the best solution for everyone, but how do you do this? How do you even know who you can trust and who's a terrorist?

It's not easy. But eliminating the people preventing Hamas from being overthrown is exactly how you make it harder and even more impossible.

Hamas wants power. Israel wants an ethnostate. Both sit in ivory towers manipulating and killing their citizens to accomplish that goal, even if it will never be achieved. To them, the status quo is still a viable option.

The most evil fuckery on the planet.

DerWillZurMacht posted...

They were tired of their people being slaughtered on the regular by monsters.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/9/2/AAfg3pAAE6Wo.jpg

You'd think being an open terrorist sympathizer would be a moddable offense.

variasuite posted...

You'd think being an open terrorist sympathizer would be a moddable offense.

If they did that, no one that supports either side would be left.

variasuite posted...

You'd think being an open terrorist sympathizer would be a moddable offense.

Its not sympathetic to say that while Hamas is very bad, the IDF are orders of magnitude worse.

hockeybub89 posted...

What fictional America do you live in? We're lucky if we get 50/50 support on genocide victims within our own borders.

Again, living to the standard of right-wingers is not something I hold in high regard.

We shouldn't talk as if Trump is right, and therefore Palestine was right to throw a genocidal fit when being asked to accept refugees into their country.

The crazy thing is that people actually believe in the 1948 logic of "well it happened so we need to take it back".

Do they even realize how ridiculous the world would be if everyone followed that mantra? France would be trying to take over all of Europe. Australia and Oceania would be at war with the UK and US. Indigenous peoples would be taking over all of the Americas. Italy and Greece would be taking over the whole eastern hemisphere.

The world would be chaos. I hate to use the phrase "get over it" but it fucking applies at this point. What happened was disgusting. There should have been justice. But we don't live in a just world. Those who should have been held accountable are long gone. Any attempt at righting those wrongs are just creating new and more dangerous wrongs.

But Israel knows that and are operating in bad faith. They don't "want the land back", they want the land, period. It's not about justice. It's about an ethnostate.

It's nuts how every single civilized country on the fucking planet understands this yet there are people from within their own borders that support the nonsense that is going on between the IDF and Hamas. It's insane. That being said, fuck Hamas and fuck the IDF.

Kimbos_Egg posted...

They exist to exploit a power vacuum and to make money using terrorist attacks and propaganda. They aren't fighting for freedom. They're terrorist dictators.

As is the Israeli government

https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1710986563285311656?t=rwsFvEtwsyQ0huRJ39xjhw&s=19

Just normal freedom fighter things. Kidnapping children from their homes is how we get to a two state solution.

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

Just normal freedom fighter things. Kidnapping children from their homes is how we get to a two state solution.

The solution would be to help Palestine's citizens in overthrowing Hamas. But Israel would have to admit they are citizens first.

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

I would. I think if there were any large refugee population after a large genocidal event, many many Americans would support bringing them in.

You are out of your fucking mind if you think thats true. The country that thought Slavery, the Trail of Tears, and Jim Crow were a good idea would suddenly wake up and decide to give the natives their land back? This is just some bullshit people say just so they can take another cheap shot at Israel, even as the death toll continues to rise.

SayHeyyShohei posted...

The solution would be to help Palestine's citizens in overthrowing Hamas. But Israel would have to admit they are citizens first.

Hamas still has majority support from Palestinians, and Palestinians do not currently support a two state solution. The Palestinian government has never supported a two state solution.

The framing people have been pushing is entirely ahistorical and counter anything we are seeing. The whole "if Israel were to just back off and accept a two state agreement this would be over but they don't because they are genocidal." That's a work of fiction, I assume concocted by left leaning activists who wish to frame things in particular ways (read: push propaganda).

SayHeyyShohei posted...

The crazy thing is that people actually believe in the 1948 logic of "well it happened so we need to take it back".

Do they even realize how ridiculous the world would be if everyone followed that mantra? France would be trying to take over all of Europe. Australia and Oceania would be at war with the UK and US. Indigenous peoples would be taking over all of the Americas. Italy and Greece would be taking over the whole eastern hemisphere.

The world would be chaos. I hate to use the phrase "get over it" but it fucking applies at this point. What happened was disgusting. There should have been justice. But we don't live in a just world. Those who should have been held accountable are long gone. Any attempt at righting those wrongs are just creating new and more dangerous wrongs.

But Israel knows that and are operating in bad faith. They don't "want the land back", they want the land, period. It's not about justice. It's about an ethnostate.

It's nuts how every single civilized country on the fucking planet understands this yet there are people from within their own borders that support the nonsense that is going on between the IDF and Hamas. It's insane. That being said, fuck Hamas and fuck the IDF.

More or less.

On top of this, the sad truth is that there will never be peace in multicultural territories that aren't rich enough to care about anything else (like for example Switzerland or Belgium).

Everywhere else it's going to keep happening as long as there are two or more sides with different views and cultures. It's just disgusting human nature and unavoidable.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see a good resolution in all of this. This can cool down a bit, but then it'll start over again. In a year, two, ten, twenty, doesn't matter. There's no long-term peace in the middle East.

SayHeyyShohei posted...

The solution would be to help Palestine's citizens in overthrowing Hamas. But Israel would have to admit they are citizens first.

As I said, Israel should tell Palestinians that if they help overthrow Hamas, they'll give them what they want.

I don't think this is going to cool down anytime soon unfortunately. Netanyahu has faced some troubling with his power in recent years. And while I do think Israel have the right to respond to the recent attack he's going to go all out on the response to play to his base back home.

Yes, both side have done horrific shit, and Israel needs to stop their expansionist and oppressive bullshit.

Most of the other middle-eastern countries would probably completely wipe out Israel if they could, though. If the roles were reversed and the Muslims nations had more power (militarily, politically and economically) than the Israel, the Jewish people would have another genocide.

Also, fuck Britain and France for being a major catalyst for all this in the first place.

.

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

Hamas still has majority support from Palestinians, and Palestinians do not currently support a two state solution. The Palestinian government has never supported a two state solution.

"support"

Funny how much you can support something with a gun to your head and the threat of your entire family disappearing. Kind of like how Palestine "supported" Hamas in 2006.

SayHeyyShohei posted...

"support"

Funny how much you can support something with a gun to your head and the threat of your entire family disappearing. Kind of like how Palestine "supported" Hamas in 2006.

What indication is there that you see that the support is coerced? Where are you getting that Hamas was actually illegally placed into power?

Any evidence at all.

This is what most people would call one of COVxy's "mask off" moments.

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

What indication is there that you see that the support is coerced? Where are you getting that Hamas was actually illegally placed into power?

Any evidence at all.

They've not had any more elections in 16+ years. While that's not necessarily any proof the last election had issues it certainly does help paint a picture of the sort of "democracy" we're talking about here.

I have no mask, and idk if you can cover up you just blatantly making things up by claiming so.

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

I have no mask, and idk if you can cover up you just blatantly making things up by claiming so.

Like claiming you have a PhD?

SHRlKE posted...

They've not had any more elections in 16+ years. While that's not necessarily any proof the last election had issues it certainly does help paint a picture of the sort of "democracy" we're talking about here.

Yes, Hamas are a right-wing authoritarian group. Of course they would not let go of power once they have it. But in other right-wing authoritarian regimes, there are always cracks in the support that give an indication that it's coerced.

In this case, prior to the election Palestinians supported Hamas, and then they elected them into power. And the polling still suggests the majority support the regime. Not at ridiculously high levels that you expect from coerced support, but majority support.

variasuite posted...

You'd think being an open terrorist sympathizer would be a moddable offense.

If you can post generalisations about what all 'Islamists' want, I guess you can also post statistics supplied by the United Nations.

ClayGuida posted...

As I said, Israel should tell Palestinians that if they help overthrow Hamas, they'll give them what they want.

Holy shit how can you be this ignorant of history?

5 times they gave them "what they want", only to find out "what they want" is the mass genocide of jews.

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

But in other right-wing authoritarian regimes, there are always cracks in the support that give an indication that it's coerced.

Like what exactly?

Kimbos_Egg posted...

Holy shit how can you be this ignorant of history?

5 times they gave them "what they want", only to find out "what they want" is the mass genocide of jews.

Just curious. Who is "they" in your post?

SHRlKE posted...

Like what exactly?

How do you know Russians don't support the government?

Do you just intuit, or are there things the you see that tell you as much? Do those things exist in the case of Palestine? Is there a record of Palestinians being disappeared after verbal opposition to the government? Is there a record of Hamas shutting down protests with heavy handed violence? Are there polls that show something ridiculous like 90-100% support, which statistically is just unreasonable?

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

How do you know Russians don't support the government?

Do you just intuit, or are there things the you see that tell you as much? Do those things exist in the case of Palestine? Is there a record of Palestinians being disappeared after verbal opposition to the government? Is there a record of Hamas shutting down protests with heavy handed violence? Are there polls that show something ridiculous like 90-100% support, which statistically is just unreasonable?

Why do you ask these things so confidently as if you actually took the time to verify that there was no record of any these things happening when we all know you didn't?

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

How do you know Russians don't support the government?

Do you just intuit, or are there things the you see that tell you as much? Do those things exist in the case of Palestine? Is there a record of Palestinians being disappeared after verbal opposition to the government? Is there a record of Hamas shutting down protests with heavy handed violence? Are there polls that show something ridiculous like 90-100% support, which statistically is just unreasonable?

What I think about Russia and their Government doesn't really come into this. It's not for me to use my own opinions to help you answer the question. I'm asking you to answer the question with your own thoughts.

Did you only read the first half of the post? The questions were rhetorical to get you to think about this.

Psuedo_Audacity posted...

Did you only read the first half of the post? The questions were rhetorical to get you to think about this.

Rhetorical implies that there is a common understanding that the premise you were making was true.

Mostly self perpetuation. Hamas' attacks don't seem to be designed to achieve any military or territorial goal, so much as annoy Israel to counterattack and create a rally behind the flag effect. It is after all is hard to criticize your government's actions when it is at war. Thier attacks also seem calculated to be annoying enough that the Israelites will counterattack, but not so threatening that Israel feels the need to outright overthrow them, so they can be in a constant state of warfare

DragonClaw01 posted...

Mostly self perpetuation. Hamas' attacks don't seem to be designed to achieve any military or territorial goal, so much as annoy Israel to counterattack and create a rally behind the flag effect. It is after all is hard to criticize your government's actions when it is at war. Thier attacks also seem calculated to be annoying enough that the Israelites will counterattack, but not so threatening that Israel feels the need to outright overthrow them, so they can be in a constant state of warfare

It helps Hamas knowing that they sacrifice nothing, because when Israel counter attacks they kill the very people that would overthrow them.

indica posted...

Bruh, for one, Gaza is definitely a part of Palestine, and two, it's pretty normal for people to defend heavily oppressed people >_>

It's not normal to defend those that butcher (as in the literal definition: hacking into pieces) living human beings.

Or those that cheer for it.

SayHeyyShohei posted...

It helps Hamas knowing that they sacrifice nothing, because when Israel counter attacks they kill the very people that would overthrow them.

True. Hamas likes putting a lot of thier military installations in civilian centers such as apartments, hospitals and schools to maximize civilian casualties in any counterattack. I think it is much more for PR reasons though. It is a lot easier to sell the idea of avenging fallen children and civilians than a bunch of fallen Hamas fighters who knew what they were getting into.

Killing all the Jews

ClayGuida posted...

They knew she was German?

Are you saying it would be fine to rape and murder her and parade her corpse around if she was Israeli? That sounds like you're implying that.

Background_Guy posted...

Are you saying it would be fine to rape and murder her and parade her corpse around if she was Israeli? That sounds like you're implying that.

Whomever I quoted said if this was only about Israel, why did they do this to a German. If that was you, stop saying stupid shit.

ClayGuida posted...

Whomever I quoted said if this was only about Israel, why did they do this to a German. If that was you, stop saying stupid shit.

Okay well why did they do that to a civilian, regardless of their nationality? They're kidnapping and killing a bunch of civillians of a bunch of different nationalities.

Death toll is said to be close to 1000.

ClayGuida posted...

Whomever I quoted said if this was only about Israel, why did they do this to a German. If that was you, stop saying stupid shit.

He's going to get banned soon so I'd just ignore him.

This conflict is all Britains fault.

Avirosb posted...

This conflict is all Britains fault.

Britain and Henry Kissinger.

Tom_Joad posted...

It's not normal to defend those that butcher (as in the literal definition: hacking into pieces) living human beings.

Or those that cheer for it.

Denying that Palestinians are heavily oppressed and generalizing that a minority of horrific actions represent the whole of that oppressed group are both really bad takes. I think you might need to reflect a little before posting next time...