Current Events > When are Democrats going to realize not voting for Biden will ensue a Trump win?

(+) Yeah! (+)

DrizztLink posted...

"fuck you i got mine"

Well it's hard to sympathize when red states like South Carolina are the ones who overwhelmingly nominated Biden in the primaries. People in blue states like California tried to offer a candidate more likely to motivate us blue staters to vote.

SecretBase posted...

Well it's hard to sympathize when red states like South Carolina are the ones who overwhelmingly nominated Biden in the primaries. People in blue states like California tried to offer a candidate more likely to motivate us blue staters to vote.

"fuck you i got mine but with more words"

You can just admit to being self-centered.

I wonder if they were always far right cultists to begin with or old age is changing their mind set cause they dont like change?

LoZguy709 posted...

We aren't getting progressive leaders until a majority of the country will get behind them, and it's not registered Democrats who tend to be your problem, but the votes that are actually up for grabs that need further convincing.

We don't subscribe to that theory since progressive Bernie Sanders did just fine in general election polling. If he or a candidate like him made it to the general they would clinch a healthy amount of independent votes.

The obstacle is totally registered Democrats, in the primary, since they're the ones who vehemently shut down our candidates.

Your analysis would be accurate if we were deadset on getting someone like AOC, who may prove unpopular in swing states for various reasons, elected. But I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. I'm fine with just running the most electable anti-plutocracy candidate possible.

SecretBase posted...

We don't subscribe to that theory since progressive Bernie Sanders did just fine in general election polling. If he or a candidate like him made it to the general they would clinch a healthy amount of independent votes.

Bernie Sanders couldnt even beat Hillary Clinton, and people keep telling me shes literally the worst candidate ever.

By that logic Barack Obama was barely a better candidate than Hillary Clinton

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/0787a47c.jpg

McMarbles posted...

Bernie Sanders couldnt even beat Hillary Clinton, and people keep telling me shes literally the worst candidate ever.

She's a weak candidate in the general. Not the primary.

The primary and the general are not the same election and do not feature the same voters. Being unpopular within a political party is not the same as being unpopular within the whole country at large. Independents, a big portion of Bernie's support, can't even vote in most primaries. When the voters are mostly party loyalists, having the endorsements of the grand majority of party leaders like Hillary did is an insurmountable advantage.

An example of how different primaries and generals are was shown in 2010, when Lisa Murkowski lost the Alaskan Senate primary, but then when she ran independent she won the general of the same race.

You cannot use someone losing among one set of voters to say that they'd also lose among another group of mostly different voters (the general electorate far outnumbers the primary electorate), especially when no recorded data supports that conclusion at all.

--Zero- posted...

Stop it. Get some help.

I'm explaining why polling figures (like the ones that predicted Bernie would lose the primary, but claimed he could've won the general) look the way they do. The people who choose to dismiss real data and think whatever they want are the ones who need to get help.

Once the primary is over, it is your responsibility to stop bitching.

Starks posted...

Once the primary is over, it is your responsibility to stop bitching.

This. Politics ends after primary season. After that, the only job is damage control by voting against Republicans as effectively as possible.

SecretBase posted...

The obstacle is totally registered Democrats, in the primary, since they're the ones who vehemently shut down our candidates.

The very same voters you are suggesting register as republicans to vote in their primaries....

Also, yes I know I am not voicing my opinion on where to eat when the group asks. But gods damnit, I expect them to take into account my silence and change their views accordingly because they should know that I don't want McDonalds and the other choice if it's not McDonalds is literally eating a dog turd.

Starks posted...

Once the primary is over, it is your responsibility to stop bitching.

The primaries are currently ongoing.

Once the primaries end in July or whenever then yeah people could stand to be quiet, but stop bitching" needs to go both ways. As in, people stop bitching about the nominees and also stop bitching about people not voting the way they want.

If you bitch at someone else though you gotta expect bitching back.

SecretBase posted...

We don't subscribe to that theory since progressive Bernie Sanders did just fine in general election polling. If he or a candidate like him made it to the general they would clinch a healthy amount of independent votes.

The obstacle is totally registered Democrats, in the primary, since they're the ones who vehemently shut down our candidates.

Your analysis would be accurate if we were deadset on getting someone like AOC, who may prove unpopular in swing states for various reasons, elected. But I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. I'm fine with just running the most electable anti-plutocracy candidate possible.

Polling numbers don't prove how an election would have played out, but it's almost certain that Republicans would have tried to double down on the socialism label the same way they tried to paint Democrats as "the radical left" when Biden was the nominee.

If I remember right, most the primaries on the Democrat side were open, but progressive voters (mainly people from my age demographic) have worse tendency to throw tantrums and not end up voting anyways than moderate Democrat voters, who are more likely to vote just out of principle.

To me, the real problem on the left back was all the inner-bitching once the primary was already decided. And this year there is no real point of a primary without other viable candidates that show better chance of winning (let alone not running an incumbent being generally pretty damn dumb), which makes all the inner-bitching even more obnoxious and furthermore highly suspicious when it comes to intention.

SecretBase posted...

Well it's hard to sympathize when red states like South Carolina are the ones who overwhelmingly nominated Biden in the primaries. People in blue states like California tried to offer a candidate more likely to motivate us blue staters to vote.

Now which group is of the base of Democratic voters in South Carolina?

Hint, that base votes pretty much the same even outside of South Carolina.

My issue is the idiots who choose to blame other people for their own failed candidate. Hillary is a great example, so many even today blame Bernie for Trump beating her. You know who's fault it is that Hillary lost? Hillary Clinton, that's who's to blame. She did a poor job appealing to huge numbers of voters, completely ignored Michigan even to focus on Iowa and tried to get disaffected Republicans (which didn't work) and alienated more progressive voters.

If a politician needs certain groups to win? Then they should actually try to do SOMETHING to appeal to those groups instead of just saying "vote for me or else". That's not how you win votes and a lot of people on this site need to figure that out too. Trying to guilt trip people into voting for your candidate doesn't fucking work and can be counter productive. I always encourage people to vote for the Dem because Republicans are just SO much worse but holy shit it's the politicians to blame if they fail to appeal to the voters they need, it's not the people who are to blame.

Enclave posted...

My issue is the idiots who choose to blame other people for their own failed candidate. Hillary is a great example, so many even today blame Bernie for Trump beating her. You know who's fault it is that Hillary lost? Hillary Clinton, that's who's to blame. She did a poor job appealing to huge numbers of voters, completely ignored Michigan even to focus on Iowa and tried to get disaffected Republicans (which didn't work) and alienated more progressive voters.

If a politician needs certain groups to win? Then they should actually try to do SOMETHING to appeal to those groups instead of just saying "vote for me or else". That's not how you win votes and a lot of people on this site need to figure that out too. Trying to guilt trip people into voting for your candidate doesn't fucking work and can be counter productive. I always encourage people to vote for the Dem because Republicans are just SO much worse but holy shit it's the politicians to blame if they fail to appeal to the voters they need, it's not the people who are to blame.

Correct Dems are just as responsible for this mess (the 2 clown show) as the Republicans are. Vote in someone better next time.

Ehh, I'm fine blaming voters if I think they're just being dumb. The politicians ultimately has to play the game as it is, yes, but I'll dislike voters for causing politicians to have to do stupid performative shit

SauI_Goodman posted...

Correct Dems are just as responsible for this mess (the 2 clown show) as the Republicans are. Vote in someone better next time.

One clown is unapologetically trying to become a dictator. They are not the same.

Starks posted...

It's destructive in the long run. Look at what Trump did with the judiciary and Supreme Court.

Progressive hissy fits lead to 30 years of conservative courts.

The hissy fits wouldnt happen if they were properly represented.

Look at why they are upset instead of just the fact that theyre upset.

DrizztLink posted...

Spoken like someone who is conveniently ignoring Project 2025 for some reason

Im a liberal Black man. Dont come at me with the sanctimonious bullshit.

You refuse to understand why leftists would rather not vote in these situations, and thats what costs us elections.

McMarbles posted...

Always, always sideeye anyone telling you not to vote. Because we know who benefits when we don't vote.

No one is saying dont vote. Were saying we understand why choose not to.

Enclave posted...

My issue is the idiots who choose to blame other people for their own failed candidate. Hillary is a great example, so many even today blame Bernie for Trump beating her. You know who's fault it is that Hillary lost? Hillary Clinton, that's who's to blame. She did a poor job appealing to huge numbers of voters, completely ignored Michigan even to focus on Iowa and tried to get disaffected Republicans (which didn't work) and alienated more progressive voters.

If a politician needs certain groups to win? Then they should actually try to do SOMETHING to appeal to those groups instead of just saying "vote for me or else". That's not how you win votes and a lot of people on this site need to figure that out too. Trying to guilt trip people into voting for your candidate doesn't fucking work and can be counter productive. I always encourage people to vote for the Dem because Republicans are just SO much worse but holy shit it's the politicians to blame if they fail to appeal to the voters they need, it's not the people who are to blame.

I believe Hillary carries a good bit of the blame for a lot of the oversights she made, but so do progressives who parroted the "lesser of two evils" shit that sailed Trump to victory. Hillary is now out of the picture for the most part, but progressives helping the party remain self-defeating are not so there's still a good need for discourse evidently.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

One clown is unapologetically trying to become a dictator. They are not the same.

Seconded. Most anyone that acts like voting for either candidate is virtually the same is so full of shit and is likely influenced by Republican sentiments far more than they are ready to acknowledge.

pnut027 posted...

Im a liberal Black man. Dont come at me with the sanctimonious bullshit.

You refuse to understand why leftists would rather not vote in these situations, and thats what costs us elections.

You didn't actually address the Project 2025 thing, just clutched some pearls.

Please try again.

DrizztLink posted...

You didn't actually address the Project 2025 thing, just clutched some pearls.

Please try again.

I oppose project 2025. See that wasnt hard.

The choices are self-evident. A binary choice. Your vote does not need to be won.

There's no point trying to convince people. They think once Republicans enact totalitarian religious fundamentalism and corporate cronyism, elections will still exist and Democrats will have "learned" by then. Even if they don't go full fascist, they will enact even more voter suppression, gerrymandering, and replacing electors with those who will always vote in Republicans' favor. How will Democrats have any chance then? They don't think.

Either that or they're just trolling.

pnut027 posted...

I oppose project 2025.

Not very fuckin' effectively.

Which does at least make it in-character for the whinging fence sitters.

What are they doing to earn my vote?

If you aren't inspired enough to vote against a potential reign of terror by Trump, you're hopeless.

It takes insane amounts of privilege to assume you can just coast through the next few years and not worry about who is in the White House.

Even if you don't get hurt, others will.

-ZIO- posted...

What are they doing to earn my vote?

Trying to keep the country and global climate from collapsing, but I guess they should probably throw in a few perks, shouldn't they?

Not sure if this post was serious, but I decided to respond anyways.

Enclave posted...

My issue is the idiots who choose to blame other people for their own failed candidate. Hillary is a great example, so many even today blame Bernie for Trump beating her. You know who's fault it is that Hillary lost? Hillary Clinton, that's who's to blame. She did a poor job appealing to huge numbers of voters, completely ignored Michigan even to focus on Iowa and tried to get disaffected Republicans (which didn't work) and alienated more progressive voters.

If a politician needs certain groups to win? Then they should actually try to do SOMETHING to appeal to those groups instead of just saying "vote for me or else". That's not how you win votes and a lot of people on this site need to figure that out too. Trying to guilt trip people into voting for your candidate doesn't fucking work and can be counter productive. I always encourage people to vote for the Dem because Republicans are just SO much worse but holy shit it's the politicians to blame if they fail to appeal to the voters they need, it's not the people who are to blame.

You realize that multiple people can be at fault, right?

And it's laughable to say that she alienated progressive voters and courted republicans.

Wanted to make college free for most americans, reform immigration to give a path to citizenship, add a public option, gender equal pay, increase min wage. She wasn't Bernie but she was pretty far to the left on issues.

If you meet a progressive that sat out 2016, it's reasonable to ask what was more important that trying to get the person into office that is closer to them in ideals.

LoZguy709 posted...

Polling numbers don't prove how an election would have played out, but it's almost certain that Republicans would have tried to double down on the socialism label the same way they tried to paint Democrats as "the radical left" when Biden was the nominee.

They tried against Obama and it failed because he rallied enough independents and disaffected leftists (youths) who didn't care about the typical partisan smears. Whereas the propaganda was effective against Hillary since she was campaigning mainly for more traditional voters.

Granted these judgments are mostly made with hindsight, it's hard to know how specific candidates would do.

LoZguy709 posted...

If I remember right, most the primaries on the Democrat side were open

Checking it 25 contests were closed, which is almost half. 14 others were semi-closed; rules for these can vary, some simply allow independents to vote freely, but others require the independent to temporarily register with their major party of choice for the day.

That's not to say that every primary being fully open would've changed the result, though. Just that little things contribute.

LoZguy709 posted...

To me, the real problem on the left back was all the inner-bitching once the primary was already decided. And this year there is no real point of a primary without other viable candidates that show better chance of winning (let alone not running an incumbent being generally pretty damn dumb), which makes all the inner-bitching even more obnoxious and furthermore highly suspicious when it comes to intention.

Well it's not like the problems people originally bitched about vanished, and there's also a new one (the Palestine issue).

Pitbuller_26 posted...

Now which group is of the base of Democratic voters in South Carolina?

Hint, that base votes pretty much the same even outside of South Carolina.

I'm not sure about that, dynamics are different in the deep south compared to the north.

Heineken14 posted...

The very same voters you are suggesting register as republicans to vote in their primaries....

That was satirical. I was parodying how often people are told to drop all their other ideological priorities for one specific political cause (stopping Trump).

SecretBase posted...

That was satirical. I was parodying how often people are told to drop all their other ideological priorities for one specific political cause (stopping Trump).

Lol good cover.

-ZIO- posted...

What are they doing to earn my vote?

Dems have passed a lot of legislation on the state and federal level since 2021. If you can't figure out if you want more of that type of thing, or more total abortion bans and IVF bans, then you don't have to vote. Just don't pretend you're interested.

SecretBase posted...

They tried against Obama and it failed because he rallied enough independents and disaffected leftists (youths) who didn't care about the typical partisan smears. Whereas the propaganda was effective against Hillary since she was campaigning mainly for more traditional voters.

Obama didn't campaign as a progressive. A ton of people when he was president were shocked he "betrayed them" by being a centrist, but that's what he always was. That's why the socialist stuff didn't stick.

All of your causes go to shit if Trump is reelected.

I'm saying that if they want my vote, they should placate me. Whatever they have done I have not really felt much of. I am not better off today that six years ago. What's their messaging right now to earn my vote? Cause I'm not hearing anything other than "Well, we're not the fascists". Doesn't really get me enthusiastic.

I don't know how you can say that when the Republicans make it clear on a daily basis that they will not cater to anyone. They proudly declare that conservative policies are good for everyone as is. And then it turns out the only people that benefit are rich white religious people.

And then you expect the Democrats to placate you. Shame on you.

Your feelings are somehow more important than a healthy society.

-ZIO- posted...

I'm saying that if they want my vote, they should placate me. Whatever they have done I have not really felt much of. I am not better off today that six years ago. What's their messaging right now to earn my vote? Cause I'm not hearing anything other than "Well, we're not the fascists". Doesn't really get me enthusiastic.

Well were not the fascists is unfortunately the most accurate thing to run on. Theres no great party in the US, but theres one thats openly becoming fascist, and one thats not.

-ZIO- posted...

I'm saying that if they want my vote, they should placate me. Whatever they have done I have not really felt much of. I am not better off today that six years ago. What's their messaging right now to earn my vote? Cause I'm not hearing anything other than "Well, we're not the fascists". Doesn't really get me enthusiastic.

the bipartisan infrastructure deal, the Inflation Reduction Act, the CHIPS and Science Act that will make this a decade of infrastructure and invention. A decade of building, of decarbonizing, of researching. They expanded the Affordable Care Act, took at least the first steps toward letting Medicare negotiate drug prices.
Cancelled over 100 billion in student loans. $35 insulin prices, codified gay marriage. Reduced inflation faster than any other country. I can keep going

Biden is literally bringing manufacturing back to the United States and creating high tech manufacturing jobs for people in blue and red states. We're going to fucking negotiate drug prices, which is how other countries are able to limit drug costs, huge infrastructure spending for high speed rails, EVs, solar, battery, nuclear, etc. Expanded health care and health insurance.

What sucks is that these things take time to do. These are the required but slow moving changes that need to happen, but it's hard to directly show people the outcomes right now.

emblem-man posted...

Obergefell (same sex marriage SCOTUS) case wasn't even decided until 2015, and you think a codifying Roe V Wade would have been possible in 08-09 with that majority ?

Unless my memory is wrong, even California couldn't get enough votes to legalize gay marriage in 2008.

My point was voting Biden get us nothing so this just strengthens my point. We're no where near the supermajority we need for anything to get done. Even then there's probably a bunch of Joe Manchins and Sinemas where still nothing gets done.

ButteryMales posted...

My point was voting Biden get us nothing so this just strengthens my point. We're no where near the supermajority we need for anything to get done. Even then there's probably a bunch of Joe Manchins and Sinemas where still nothing gets done.

hey go post in the topic about project 2025. You told me Trump and Biden are exactly the same so why arent you over there?

SecretBase posted...

They tried against Obama and it failed because he rallied enough independents and disaffected leftists (youths) who didn't care about the typical partisan smears. Whereas the propaganda was effective against Hillary since she was campaigning mainly for more traditional voters.

Granted these judgments are mostly made with hindsight, it's hard to know how specific candidates would do.

It didn't work so well against Obama because he pretty much straight up denied and tried to distance himself from any association with socialism. However, groundless accusations of socialism against Obama (thanks, Joe the Plumber!) were actually pretty successful in 2008, just 8 years before Bernie ran as a candidate using that word as part of his platform (and calling it Democratic Socialism didn't really mitigate much any of that).

Checking it 25 contests were closed, which is almost half. 14 others were semi-closed; rules for these can vary, some simply allow independents to vote freely, but others require the independent to temporarily register with their major party of choice for the day.

That's not to say that every primary being fully open would've changed the result, though. Just that little things contribute.

There are other reasons for keeping primaries closed, like not wanting Republican plants getting in. Still, I won't act like there wasn't any fuckery in the 2016 elections, and I'm frankly surprised you didn't come back with the superdelegate argument which is a bit tougher to get around. That wasn't the case in 2020 though, as the DNC was much more on guard about alienating progressives through a "rigged" primary system, and moderates still carried the vote. It wasn't because their positions were preferred, because Democrats as a whole would actually like to move further left if possible, but it was because people though Biden would be able to keep moderate voters from going for Trump (which as I like to point out, is twice as bad as losing the vote of a progressive).

Well it's not like the problems people originally bitched about vanished, and there's also a new one (the Palestine issue).

The problems people bitched about with regard to Hillary are now irrelevant because hopefully Biden's campaign team will learn from hers' mistakes. The other problems, like the one you're pointing out, will only get worse if we allow Republicans to win this election, and inspiring voter apathy is a great way to make sure they have the presidency, senate, house, and the Supreme Court like they already have thanks to our failure to elect a Democratic president in 2016. If they have enough of the House and Senate to bypass filibuster, they can basically "lawfully" (you know, Constitution aside) do whatever the fuck they want.

Fence-sitters will happily throw out Democrats for simply not having those supermajorities and then shrug when Republicans face the same challenges.

ButteryMales posted...

My point was voting Biden get us nothing so this just strengthens my point. We're no where near the supermajority we need for anything to get done. Even then there's probably a bunch of Joe Manchins and Sinemas where still nothing gets done.

But look at all the stuff we have done under the Biden admin despite our slim majority. The admin knows how to get stuff done and we should acknowledge that. We are absolutely getting something and it's insane to think we're not.

LOL at the "earn my vote" shit as applied to a general election. Anyone that can't be bothered to vote blue in general elections is a fucking lost cause.

The time and place where "earn my vote" makes sense is in primary elections. People absolutely should vote their preference in primaries. That said, there's nothing good that can be said of people who are voting against Biden in the primary and running their big fat mouths off with all kinds of Republican ratfucking talking points against Biden.

If your candidate is so much better than Biden, then tell us why as opposed to doing Republicans' dirty work for them. Especially since you are the people that always squawk about "but Trump" being a shitty argument. News flash: your "but Biden" isn't any better.

-ZIO- posted...

I'm saying that if they want my vote, they should placate me. Whatever they have done I have not really felt much of. I am not better off today that six years ago. What's their messaging right now to earn my vote? Cause I'm not hearing anything other than "Well, we're not the fascists". Doesn't really get me enthusiastic.

Oh ok so you weren't joking. Good to know so I won't give you the benefit of the doubt.