Current Events > When are Democrats going to realize not voting for Biden will ensue a Trump win?

(+) Yeah! (+)

animebop posted...

Obama didn't campaign as a progressive. A ton of people when he was president were shocked he "betrayed them" by being a centrist, but that's what he always was. That's why the socialist stuff didn't stick.

He campaigned to the left of the mainstream candidate (Hillary) on foreign policy, healthcare, free trade, and the safety net while at times calling himself progressive. (granted even Hillary and Biden have called themselves progressives, professional Dems seem to have a different definition for the term than how it's commonly used)

In terms of voting record and messaging he was always a step to the left of the party standard bearers of his time. The flips criticized after he won are ones like "I didn't campaign on a public option" even though it was in his campaign platform and was promoted in speeches, opposing an individual mandate before supporting it, or claiming to reject most political labels before he was in office but then formally identifying with the center-left "New Democrat" wing of the party afterwards.

But you have a point that obviously he wasn't an anti-corporate socialist like Bernie. Yet the thing is Bernie was open about his political affiliation and still maintained high favorability and polling. So there's a question of how Republicans saying, "this openly socialist guy you all like is a far-left radical!!!" would've actually effected anything. The first thing anyone hears about Bernie is that he's an independent self-identified Democratic Socialist, there's nothing to uncover there.

LoZguy709 posted...

Still, I won't act like there wasn't any fuckery in the 2016 elections, and I'm frankly surprised you didn't come back with the superdelegate argument which is a bit tougher to get around.

I'm not particularly invested there since I don't think the result changes regardless. Endorsements are extremely powerful in primaries regardless of whether there's a prominent tally of them (the superdelegate tracker) or not. It's simply an additional annoyance.

LoZguy709 posted...

That wasn't the case in 2020 though, as the DNC was much more on guard about alienating progressives through a "rigged" primary system, and moderates still carried the vote.

In terms of vote totals the moderates did have a slight lead over the progressives after the first three contests, but it was thin; about 3k votes out of over 500k cast. But it was at least competitive. It was Clyburn kicking off the parry official endorsement train for the moderates that granted that turned the contest completely one-sided.

I don't think progressives have a win locked down in any scenario but it's at least plausible without all the endorsements disproportionately targeting the other side.

LoZguy709 posted...

It wasn't because their positions were preferred, because Democrats as a whole would actually like to move further left if possible, but it was because people though Biden would be able to keep moderate voters from going for Trump (which as I like to point out, is twice as bad as losing the vote of a progressive).

Actually I think moderate side policies may have more broad appeal in certain instances. For example the public option is more popular than Medicare for All, even though both are popular. And staunch progressives like Bernie keep pushing stuff like middle-class tax hikes and allowing convicts to vote, which even if those are necessary or the right thing to do, certainly aren't popular. I certainly don't mean to claim progressives are pristine electoral machines held down only by the corrupt establishment, there are matters they could afford to take a more incremental approach on for the sake of electability.

LoZguy709 posted...

The problems people bitched about with regard to Hillary are now irrelevant because hopefully Biden's campaign team will learn from hers' mistakes.

They did avoid many of those errors on the management end.

Teddytalks posted...

If Biden the best democrats can do, then America deserves Trump tbh.

It really, really doesn't.

Teddytalks posted...

I'm not voting in the next election

Then you deserve Trump.

Starks posted...

Biden literally proposed a temporary ceasefire today.

And what exactly has he done to induce Israel to cease firing? An arms embargo? The suspension of all US government funding to Israel? That should have been the bare fucking minimum response to what Netanyahu's government has been doing for the past four months.

LoZguy709 posted...

Future generations will be the ones to suffer the most from it, and they've done absolutely nothing to deserve Trump.

Picking the clown again after what he done just tells me that the Muslims I love lives are forfeit once white people are angry enough. That what this whole incident tells me as the west see their lives as worthless. I rather just cut and run at this point, because although Trump is definitely worse on every policy than Biden, he also idiotic enough to not be palatable, and I can trust America to implode before he finish doing the shit he wants, like it nearly did last time.

Thanatos_the_Great posted...

Then you deserve Trump.

And so do you.

Pitlord_Special posted...

What did Biden do that you find so offensive?

I think you already know.

Teddytalks posted...

Picking the clown again after what he done just tells me that the Muslims I love lives are forfeit once white people are angry enough. That what this whole incident tells me as the west see their lives as worthless. I rather just cut and run at this point, because although Trump is definitely worse on every policy than Biden, he also idiotic enough to not be palatable, and I can trust America to implode before he finish doing the shit he wants, like it nearly did last time.

That's the thing, Trump is incompetent, he had a Republican Congress for the first two years and all he got done was tax cuts for the rich, bank deregulation, and conservative judges (i.e. the same shit literally any Republican would've done, and it's not like we can keep them from ever winning an election again).

The unique problems he causes are down to stuff the president can manage alone, such as foreign, trade, and border policy. He cannot radically change the domestic landscape of the US because his office doesn't provide that capacity, and even if someone was clever enough to successfully override the constitution to change that it's certainly not him or anyone associated with him. Trump is the guy who couldn't repeal DACA despite having every right to do so because the text of his order failed to comply with established procedure. From the party that failed to repeal Obamacare because they were too stupid to provide a feasible alternative to a member of their own party (McCain). They're fucking losers.

Teddytalks posted...

I think you already know.

I worry for you. Do you not have any friends or family that have been hurt or targeted by conservative rhetoric?

Naughtol posted...

I worry for you. Do you not have any friends or family that have been hurt or targeted by conservative rhetoric?

Yes, but the liberal government killing them anyway. It makes zero difference, so no reason for me to care. The most moral thing I can personally do is just save up a bunch of money, and keep the people around me safe how I can. The family not being targeted now, won't be targeted under Trump atleast.

SecretBase posted...

I'm not particularly invested there since I don't think the result changes regardless. Endorsements are extremely powerful in primaries regardless of whether there's a prominent tally of them (the superdelegate tracker) or not. It's simply an additional annoyance.

I don't really see any problem with endorsements, so long as they're not being bought or something as corrupt as that.

In terms of vote totals the moderates did have a slight lead over the progressives after the first three contests, but it was thin; about 3k votes out of over 500k cast. But it was at least competitive. It was Clyburn kicking off the parry official endorsement train for the moderates that granted that turned the contest completely one-sided.

I don't think progressives have a win locked down in any scenario but it's at least plausible without all the endorsements disproportionately targeting the other side.

Progressive positions are getting more popular, but they're not very easy sells to centrists, and tend to inspire better turnout from the right, so if you ask me, that's at least a huge part why Biden won the primary and that's why he's the nominee right now instead of a slightly older Bernie Sanders.

Actually I think moderate side policies may have more broad appeal in certain instances. For example the public option is more popular than Medicare for All, even though both are popular. And staunch progressives like Bernie keep pushing stuff like middle-class tax hikes and allowing convicts to vote, which even if those are necessary or the right thing to do, certainly aren't popular. I certainly don't mean to claim progressives are pristine electoral machines held down only by the corrupt establishment, there are matters they could afford to take a more incremental approach on for the sake of electability.

Right, so their best strategy for winning is to be more moderate.

They did avoid many of those errors on the management end.

I really hope, but it's never something to be too assured of I guess.
Teddytalks posted...

Picking the clown again after what he done just tells me that the Muslims I love lives are forfeit once white people are angry enough. That what this whole incident tells me as the west see their lives as worthless. I rather just cut and run at this point, because although Trump is definitely worse on every policy than Biden, he also idiotic enough to not be palatable, and I can trust America to implode before he finish doing the shit he wants, like it nearly did last time.

Ok, that definitely adds up. You want America to suffer and logically Trump would be the way to get there.

The energy crisis is our greatest concern as a species though, if not nuclear war, and you're effectively advocating for the United States to leave the Paris Climate Agreement again and go back to using harmful energy sources, which will inspire much of the rest of the industrialized world to do the same. The consequences will result in suffering for the children of all countries, especially less developed countries. Then with the issue of nuclear war... do I even need to go there?

remember @ButteryMales when you said this about Trump and Biden in this very topic?

I've lived through 4 years of both of them. I believe you voting for Biden just makes you feel better and doesn't do anything either.

I seriously doubt you actually care about Palestine with a view like that, so dont use that as a shield for you thinking theres nothing different between Trump and Bidens second presidencies.

ButteryMales posted...

I've lived through 4 years of both of them. I believe you voting for Biden just makes you feel better and doesn't do anything either.

I just want to see you try to justify project 2025 without deflecting.

LoZguy709 posted...

Excuses

I am tired of the liberal excuses white people throw at me. The dead have no future, so the conversation is pointless to me. Go find someone that actually have a future to worry about, as the people I love face death.

Teddytalks posted...

I am tired of the liberal excuses white people throw at me. The dead have no future, so the conversation is pointless to me. Go find someone that actually have a future to worry about, as the people I love face death.

is this some accelerationist shit or something

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

is this some accelerationist shit or something

It looks like someone is mightily bothered by the defects of the only party preventing an GOP dictatorship in the US.

I really do wonder if there was this kind of "the people opposing Hitler are _____, therefore what's the worst that could happen" shit as the Weimar Republic fell.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

is this some accelerationist shit or something

"White people make me so mad that I want everyone other than white men to suffer" is certainly something

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

I seriously doubt you actually care about Palestine with a view like that, so dont use that as a shield for you thinking theres nothing different between Trump and Bidens second presidencies.

I seriously don't care about your opinion. I was exaggerating "doesn't do anything" and I meant "doesn't do much".

ButteryMales posted...

I seriously don't care about your opinion. I was exaggerating "doesn't do anything" and I meant "doesn't do much".

lmao you dont see a big difference between another Biden presidency and a fucking theocracy

youre beyond hope.

Teddytalks posted...

Yes, but the liberal government killing them anyway. It makes zero difference, so no reason for me to care. The most moral thing I can personally do is just save up a bunch of money, and keep the people around me safe how I can. The family not being targeted now, won't be targeted under Trump atleast.

But don't you see the damage that's already been caused by the GOP? You're much safer with a liberal candidate over a conservative one. These people seem to reduce your right to vote. A wife's right to be a person. A gay person's very right to exist.

What has hurt you so you feel this way?

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

I just want to see you try to justify project 2025 without deflecting.

I don't want to justify project 2025.

Do you want to justify the Israeli genocide of the Palestinians?

Teddytalks posted...

I am tired of the liberal excuses white people throw at me. The dead have no future, so the conversation is pointless to me. Go find someone that actually have a future to worry about, as the people I love face death.

If not voting and letting things get worse is that important to you, I won't try to stop you. If people are really going to vote for Trump because "it's what we deserve," then shit what am I gonna say... I just like the option where there is less suffering but that's obviously easier to say when the lives of you and your family are not in immediate jeopardy.

Naughtol posted...

But don't you see the damage that's already been caused by the GOP?

There no benefit for me and mine. At this point, I'm voting for people who just insult me and mine lol. This whole topic just full of sneering people who couldn't careless about my family lol. Why should I care about them.

What has hurt you so you feel this way?

The general attitude liberals have towards Muslims is "who cares If they get murdered, because Republicans going to do it aswell and worse! Vote Democrat because it benefits me".

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

And blocked. I'm tired of you people.

ButteryMales posted...

I don't want to justify project 2025.

Do you want to justify the Israeli genocide of the Palestinians?

again hiding behind palestine because you dont want to admit theres an ocean of difference between Biden and trump.

Bidens stance on israel is awful. He could improve on this stance in time. Trump will make everything worse and never improve, WHILE also creating a U.S. theocracy. Youre okay with that.

Teddytalks posted...

I think you already know.

The fact that you're not voting means you don't have a word in this topic or in the discussion of politics. Not voting is an utter slap in the face to previous generations that fought for your freedom.

Teddytalks posted...

And blocked. I'm tired of you people.

Can't answer the question. Curious.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

again hiding behind palestine because you dont want to admit theres an ocean of difference between Biden and trump.

Bidens stance on israel is awful. He could improve on this stance in time. Trump will make everything worse and never improve, WHILE also creating a U.S. theocracy. Youre okay with that.

Biden and Trump are different. Trump, a guy who's definitely not Christian, successfully creating a U.S. theocracy instead of just getting shot in the head by his Secret Service is asinine.

ButteryMales posted...

Biden and Trump are different. Trump, a guy who's definitely not Christian, successfully creating a U.S. theocracy instead of just getting shot in the head by his Secret Service is asinine.

Project 2025 is public information. Theyre not even hiding their plans, and the entire right supports it. Trump isnt getting assassinated by people that he fucking hired specifically to do his bidding, and that also support his agenda

--Zero- posted...

The fact that you're not voting means you don't have a word in this topic or in the discussion of politics. Not voting is an utter slap in the face to previous generations that fought for your freedom.

I really hope you get the worse that the future can have in store for a person. Anyway I'm done with this topic and really the politics of this board. The liberals and the conservatives on this board aren't that much different anyway. I will post in non political topics for now on.

Teddytalks posted...

I really hope you get the worse that the future can have in store for a person.

You want a Trump presidency, we get it.

ButteryMales posted...

Biden and Trump are different. Trump, a guy who's definitely not Christian, successfully creating a U.S. theocracy instead of just getting shot in the head by his Secret Service is asinine.

You realize that his secret service wholly supports him?

Teddytalks posted...

I really hope you get the worse that the future can have in store for a person. Anyway I'm done with this topic and really the politics of this board. The liberals and the conservatives on this board aren't that much different anyway. I will post in non political topics for now on.

Please get help. This is unhinged behavior. I hope you enjoyed my Ted Talk.

ClayGuida posted...

You realize that his secret service wholly supports him?

For example, we know that Pence isn't a total idiot precisely because he insisted on being guarded by his own secret service detail on J6, instead of going off with the agents "helpfully" provided by Trump.

I don't necessarily agree with the notion that if you aren't voting (or if you're voting independent, libertarian, etc) that you can't discuss politics. You can discuss why these candidates dont do it for you. Really maybe this is a good thing for American history. (I mean after the next 4 years is over.) Start fresh and let this be a lesson for all of us as a nation who not to put in office.

Unknown5uspect posted...

Can't answer the question. Curious.

I mean, people who make sweeping statements like you people and this board after posting bad takes and getting dunked on for them usually arent the most honest

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

Project 2025 is public information. Theyre not even hiding their plans, and the entire right supports it. Trump isnt getting assassinated by people that he fucking hired specifically to do his bidding, and that also support his agenda

He hired Mike Pence and Bill Barr only for them to drop him at the last moment. He spent his entire first four years trying to find people to do his bidding and failed at it with a revolving door administration.

SauI_Goodman posted...

I don't necessarily agree with the notion that if you aren't voting (or if you're voting independent, libertarian, etc) that you can't discuss politics. You can discuss why these candidates dont do it for you. Really maybe this is a good thing for American history. (I mean after the next 4 years is over.) Start fresh and let this be a lesson for all of us as a nation who not to put in office.

Yeah, Im sure Project 2025 will only last four years followed by a reboot.

ClayGuida posted...

You realize that his secret service wholly supports him?

Citation needed. Did you think Bill Barr wholly supported Trump?

ButteryMales posted...

He hired Mike Pence and Bill Barr only for them to drop him at the last moment. He spent his entire first four years trying to find people to do his bidding and failed at it with a revolving door administration.

So youre basically just saying that Trump might not get enough support to institute the GOP theocracy that basically supports everything the GOP wants.

Thats a chance youre willing to take. Instead of just voting for Biden who wont even attempt a dictatorship.

ButteryMales posted...

He hired Mike Pence and Bill Barr only for them to drop him at the last moment. He spent his entire first four years trying to find people to do his bidding and failed at it with a revolving door administration.

You sound disappointed by this. Can't think why.

In any case, since this touches on getting minions to do his will, I'm sure such mistakes would be prevented in a second Trump administration. By now it is completely and excruciatingly clear who in the Republican party longs to eat colon polyps directly out of Trump's ass, and Trump would make his appointments accordingly.

EPR-radar posted...

You sound disappointed by this. Can't think why.

inb4 this board calls everyone who doesnt worship Biden a Trumper!

ButteryMales posted...

Citation needed. Did you think Bill Barr wholly supported Trump?

The source is his entire term of criminal activity.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

So youre basically just saying that Trump might not get enough support to institute the GOP theocracy that basically supports everything the GOP wants.

Trump just wants power, he's not a Christian.

If all the GOP just wanted Theocracy, gay marriage wouldn't have been legalized with 1 GOP vote.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

Thats a chance youre willing to take. Instead of just voting for Biden who wont even attempt a dictatorship.

Yes, it's a chance I'm willing to take. I'm not going to implicitly vote in favor of the Palestinian genocide out of fear.

ButteryMales posted...

Trump just wants power, he's not a Christian.

If all the GOP just wanted Theocracy, gay marriage wouldn't have been legalized with 1 GOP vote.

Yes, it's a chance I'm willing to take. I'm not going to implicitly vote in favor of the Palestinian genocide out of fear.

Yes we know, you're a Republican, Trumper, and MAGA extremist.

Dark_Arbron posted...

inb4 this board calls everyone who doesnt worship Biden a Trumper!

That's the alternative if they say they're not voting for Biden. You can't not vote for Biden and be ignorant enough to not understand you helped Trump win 2024 if that happens though. This is the easiest black and white logic going into this. There's no room for grey in this situation.

They might not like Trump, but they would be giving him a vote if they don't vote at all or vote for someone other than Biden. It's not worshipping Biden at all. 2028 I wouldn't even consider Biden again if it was possible for him to run. It doesn't even have to be Biden that's in office right now. It could be any Democrat (almost any) as president and I would happily vote the popular democrat if it meant stopping Trump. Don't misunderstand people when they say we need to stop Trump in 24. The only reason anyone can be critical of Biden through these 2 years is his stance on Israel. That is not a good enough reason to give Trump a win knowing what he'd do and his stance on Israel already.

ClayGuida posted...

Yes we know, you're a Republican, Trumper, and MAGA extremist.

A notorious Trumpist not even bothering to bust out an alt for their "both sides" turn is somewhat like a J6 rioter showing up for the riot with identifying information visible on their clothing.

Everyone clap for TC and his opinion

ButteryMales posted...

Yes, it's a chance I'm willing to take. I'm not going to implicitly vote in favor of the Palestinian genocide out of fear.

You're just going to explicitly allow Palestinian genocide out of ego.