Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 419: It's Joever. Bye, den.

(+) Yeah! (+)

I guess I was around to make this topic after all!

FFDragon 4 minutes ago
#500
vote potato

I nominate myself as the new VP

Also thanks to Hb and swordz for workshopping this title!

Harris has the high ground

My hot take is that the read that this plays into "Dems in Disarray" is completely wrong. If anything it's the opposite. The stereotype is that Dems are wishy-washy wimps that can't make a decision, but to most people this is going to read as Dems making a decisive, ballsy decision. And it's a decision that poll after poll after poll has shown that the vast majority of voters *wanted* Democrats to make. Kamala Harris might end up being an awful nominee, so it might have been a mistake on that level, but on a narrative/momentum level, I don't see how this doesn't benefit Democrats.

Lopen posted...

Lmao fuck off. Don't preach to me about privilege from your ivory tower of the privilege to go to college for a music degree

Tell me what access it grants that our existing systems + the option to pay for

I know a lot of lower class people who basically had to live paycheck to paycheck in HUD housing that were made a lot worse due it crippling their finances because it was said they were making enough to afford it

But yeah call it privilege I guess

I am privileged in very many ways, but choosing to go into education is hardly the one to highlight.

And it is being privileged and recognizing the ways that makes it easier to put things into framing.

I have personally been in the ACA income bracket... From graduation for 7 years. Most people don't realize that they still qualify for ACA while they still make $50000. And, of course, I've spent a lot of time in southeastern Ohio where just about everyone is impoverished.

Anyway, hospitals and doctors refuse treatment for non-medical emergencies, so the ACA allows people to get preventative treatment, prescriptions, all sorts of things that they couldn't.

I am by no means trying to argue that the ACA is perfect or shouldn't be fixed or replaced, merely that it has had a positive effect for people who wouldn't have had insurance otherwise. Somewhere around 20 million people have insurance when they wouldn't have. People with pre-existing conditions got protected.

Because of Obamacare, people are alive today that wouldn't be without it.

If those people's lives are worth nothing, then sure, you have a point. But as long as you are not someone whose life has depended on the ACA preserving your healthcare, then yes, you are privileged in this manner.

https://twitter.com/drmistercody/status/1815103678623428866?s=46&t=v9nzYLLBIiNYrqldFs9NWQ

main reason kamala is running for president is because of that hogan promo.
if she comes out with war paint it's over.

Tag

dems just clinched the election

Even in his farewell note, he never mentions ending the Afghanistan War. Why are democrats so afraid to mention this? Is it really so embarrassing to be anti-war nowadays, across the board?

I will vote for anyone who claims they helped end that war. If that's Kamala then sure, even though she's a cop. But I'm afraid that they'll use this chance to bring in someone who can distance themselves from Biden's anti-populist actions like ending one of our forever wars, and pausing the low interest rate grift. I don't want to vote for that kind of democrat. I was so ready to vote for Biden...

HanOfTheNekos posted...

But as long as you are not someone whose life has depended on the ACA preserving your healthcare, then yes, you are privileged in this manner.

These people you speak of are actually strawmen.

Red13n is saying how much better the poor people who are buried in debt are than they would be-- you tell them that. I don't think they agree with you. In fact I regularly have conversations with a close friend who has a similar economic condition than I used to be who actually DOES need and use Obamacare, and he spends tons of time ranting about how shitty our health care is.

Like do any of you know anyone who is actually buried in medical debt who is praising Obamacare? Or are you just being dumb with numbers because now they owe $15000 and make $300 a month when before they'd owe $30000 and make $600 a month and you've deluded yourself into thinking that's better.

It's a shit system. I'm closer to the shit than most of you despite being in fairly good health myself due to being poor and among poor people for most of my life (your $50000 you're woe is meing about is not poor), and as such still being good friends/family with many of them who have need for better Healthcare even though I do not (I'm sure I do actually have some medical conditions that could use help-- haven't been to a doctor in like 20 years because I have only arguably been able to afford it for the last two. I guess I'm just so darn privileged I skimp on healthcare for the fun of it)

also the dems picked up 5 mil in donos in the past hour

https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1815087051605266924?t=4bMAaDrqN0o0IQa6THxxxg&s=19

Thank you Chiitan

https://twitter.com/chiitan7407/status/1815091736840192499?t=XSA7f_PrxVIv1RTV0VjRaA&s=19

https://x.com/ZackBornstein/status/1815096339233190282

I dont think this is a good decision but its up to the president and if his party feels better I guess.

I'm personally betting Pete Buttigieg. He's got a decent national profile and most importantly is a milquetoast white guy.

KamikazePotato posted...

https://x.com/ZackBornstein/status/1815096339233190282

What a shitty wine list.

LOLOL

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/3/33b925b0.jpg

House Speaker Mike Johnson says if Democrats replace Biden at this late stage, Republicans will file lawsuits challenging ballot access in every state.

I mean of course they are Biden dropping out is the worst thing that could have happened. All of the smart Democrats that everyone liked and would prefer as the nominee supported Biden and all the democrats everyone hated were the ones calling for him to step down.

I hate almost all the Dems that were asking him to step down as well, but that doesn't mean I didn't agree with them.

And listen

I still think Obama was a good president, and I think Obamacare came from a good place but it got ruined at some point in the pipeline by mixing it too much with greedy insurance companies

There are good things about Obamacare and it's SLIGHTLY better than nothing if for no other reason than the preexisting conditions clause (literally the only good thing about it-- the rest is just dumb math to make it look better on paper when it's still crippling people financially functionally identically to what the old system did)

The whole thing that spurred this is whether I respect Romney distancing himself from it and him wanting to scrap it entirely. And I do. What worked (if it worked, can't say as I haven't lived in nor do I know anyone living in Massachusetts) doesn't necessarily work when scaled up.

I think Obamacare is better but it's such a small amount better than what we had that I'd take my chances with rerolling it. Instead we're just stuck with shit and no one has to acknowledge it because a bunch of middle to upper middle class democrat kids crow about how it's so much better and there's no uproar about it anymore because the actual poor people aren't posting about it on the internet.

Glad AOC and Bernie stuck with Joe, at least I don't have to hear about how this is the progressive left's fault. The calls were coming from the center of the house!

Seginustemple posted...

Glad AOC and Bernie stuck with Joe, at least I don't have to hear about how this is the progressive left's fault. The calls were coming from the center of the house!

It's going to be rougher on them if she wins!

looking forward to having a new election to re-litigate for the next eight years

although if she loses I'm probably not around in eight years

Lopen posted...

Like do any of you know anyone who is actually buried in medical debt who is praising Obamacare?

Yes.
I had a student with severe physical conditions who would not have been covered after turning 18 - however, the ACA allowed him to be supported, which meant his brother didn't have to avoid going to college to take care of him. Both of them have better lives because of the ACA.

I had a student who was one of many children whose parents didn't work and their siblings all needed government assistance, and the ACA allowed them to get medication that they needed which they credit for keeping them alive.

I almost had to use the marketplace myself but the school managed to secure enough funds to keep me over the limit.

Just a few examples, I know more. But yes, these are real people that exist who are better due to the ACA.

Also, to be clear, the $50k number was just a "you still qualify for the ACA with this" number. When I taught, I only made more than $20k one year.

And, one more time - yes, our healthcare system is shit. I just don't think it'd be better to purge tens of thousands of American lives than have the ACA in place.

Did someone say medical debt?

Hello lol

Seeing lots of assumptions from others that it's going to be VP Pete as well. Nothing actually stated by the campaign of course, people just seem to be guessing like I was.

No insurance + severe health issues = me irl

Obamacare was a much needed step but it was painfully small due to Republicans and comservative democrats literally being evil :)

VP Pete would be such a a losing maneuver Jesus Christ.

Lopen posted...

And listen

I still think Obama was a good president, and I think Obamacare came from a good place but it got ruined at some point in the pipeline by mixing it too much with greedy insurance companies

There are good things about Obamacare and it's SLIGHTLY better than nothing if for no other reason than the preexisting conditions clause (literally the only good thing about it-- the rest is just dumb math to make it look better on paper when it's still crippling people financially functionally identically to what the old system did)

The whole thing that spurred this is whether I respect Romney distancing himself from it and him wanting to scrap it entirely. And I do. What worked (if it worked, can't say as I haven't lived in nor do I know anyone living in Massachusetts) doesn't necessarily work when scaled up.

I think Obamacare is better but it's such a small amount better than what we had that I'd take my chances with rerolling it. Instead we're just stuck with shit and no one has to acknowledge it because a bunch of middle to upper middle class democrat kids crow about how it's so much better and there's no uproar about it anymore because the actual poor people aren't posting about it on the internet.

Man why are you ever arguing then? You jumped through hoop after hoop just to arrive at "we think the same thing lol"

I think you gotta go with a straight guy to soothe all the people who are already on edge about black people and/or women

I don't LIKE that we live in that world, and I don't even know what the options look like, but

Lopen posted...

These people you speak of are actually strawmen.

Red13n is saying how much better the poor people who are buried in debt are than they would be-- you tell them that. I don't think they agree with you. In fact I regularly have conversations with a close friend who has a similar economic condition than I used to be who actually DOES need and use Obamacare, and he spends tons of time ranting about how shitty our health care is.

Like do any of you know anyone who is actually buried in medical debt who is praising Obamacare? Or are you just being dumb with numbers because now they owe $15000 and make $300 a month when before they'd owe $30000 and make $600 a month and you've deluded yourself into thinking that's better.

It's a shit system. I'm closer to the shit than most of you despite being in fairly good health myself due to being poor and among poor people for most of my life (your $50000 you're woe is meing about is not poor), and as such still being good friends/family with many of them who have need for better Healthcare even though I do not (I'm sure I do actually have some medical conditions that could use help-- haven't been to a doctor in like 20 years because I have only arguably been able to afford it for the last two. I guess I'm just so darn privileged I skimp on healthcare for the fun of it)

More people would be dead and more people would be in crippling medical debt.

And covid would have crushed the system.

https://twitter.com/penningtonkm/status/1815115478278578371?t=R-Admheq9OltszMMtYuUmw&s=19

Seems enthusiasm is very much present.

Can't really tell if I'm shocked or not this happened. Put me down on team "I think this was a Dem own-goal" but I was increasingly thinking that the self-inflicted panic was rising to the point where maybe it equals a wash (but not in a good way, they were sinking themselves with all the in-fighting)

@Thorn

Youre a smart guy. Im reading its too late in the process for anyone other than Kamala to use the funds. Is this true?

Uh, so, AFAIK - Harris is the only one who can easily access the ~$96m the Biden campaign has - though the GOP has indicated they will challenge this just like they will with Harris's ballot access (which seems pretty damn absurd, the DNC hasn't even happened yet. Biden may have been the presumptive nominee the whole time but he has never been official because uh... that's what the convention is for. But GOP gonna GOP)

But supposing for a moment it's not Harris - no, I don't think any other candidate can get that money. There may be loopholes though that keep the money for Dems.

In theory I think you're "supposed" to refund the donors - but that basically never happens in any campaign. Instead, what would likely happen is that the Biden campaign warchest would be transferred but to where would be the question. It could go to a SuperPAC (thanks citizens united) but that's less than ideal since they're not allowed to coordinate with the campaign. ...Of course, as Colbert showed a few cycles ago you basically can but still it'd be suboptimal.

Their better bet would be to transfer the money to the DNC - this probably shouldn't be allowed but Bloomberg did it in the 2020 primary and the FEC basically went "yeah sure whatever. campaign finance is dead who cares." (thanks citizens united) but that still wouldn't be directly in the hands of a non-Harris nominee but would be a lot better.

AriaOfBolo posted...

I think you gotta go with a straight guy to soothe all the people who are already on edge about black people and/or women

I don't LIKE that we live in that world, and I don't even know what the options look like, but

I officially deem the veepstakes "White Boy Summer"

After all the time we spent speculating who the Republican VP would be, I think the ultimate plot twist was that wed know before we knew the Democrat on.

foolm0r0n posted...

Even in his farewell note, he never mentions ending the Afghanistan War. Why are democrats so afraid to mention this? Is it really so embarrassing to be anti-war nowadays, across the board?

Afraid of the optics of how it ended.

~~~

As for VPs for Harris. My first instinct/zero thought choice was Andy Beshear. You could make the argument that the governor of Kentucky doesn't "help" the ticket in terms of the electoral college and I get it but that kind of leaves you with like Shapiro/Wolf as your choices if that's the angle you want. idk like I said, never thought hard on this.

https://x.com/portoul/status/1815101317171606015

Finally, it's happening.

https://twitter.com/operagxofficial/status/1815090103653695516?t=-hX-vYHtupGJhFbgvSHcfA&s=19

Lopen posted...

I think Obamacare is better but it's such a small amount better than what we had that I'd take my chances with rerolling it.

I think most people here agree with this. It's just that we'd want it replaced with something rather than just throw it out and hope there's enough suffering that Congress eventually chooses to make a new system.

Time to watch this show finally.

https://twitter.com/Cande313/status/1815093641133830514?t=SaL02c-oqg7QU_IJQWUrgQ&s=19

FFDragon posted...

VP Pete would be such a a losing maneuver Jesus Christ.

Nah Pete has great charisma he would be fine actually

Don't like his policies but he can stomp any republican.

Pete's been going out of his way to specifically shit talk Vance for the past week. Practice?

So are you arguing that without the ACA these people would be dead?

Like you're saying "they are getting care because of the ACA" but like, what happened before the ACA? They just died? That's not true. I think because they're students they don't know better and want to attribute it to that, but there were still ways it just wasn't as standardized. You had to go through programs and stuff but it was all there and more importantly it was a lot cheaper if you DIDN'T need it because you weren't being bled dry by an insurance premium you couldn't afford.

Like "they got this with Obamacare" doesn't actually mean "they couldn't get this at all if Obamacare didn't exist" you do realize this right? Do you have statistics? Did medical condition based mortalities plummet after Obamacare? I really don't think they did. The illusion that Obamacare suddenly got all these people-- it got people who didn't have insurance coverage insurance coverage, and that looks good on paper, but a lot of that was coerced and a lot of that, if really needed, could have been achieved without the ACA.

One source of many from as I was growing up: My single mother who raised me with less than 15k a year was able to get a bunch of medication she needed to live without Obamacare existing even after Medicaid got dunked. I'm not saying everyone would be able to with exactly the same ease with Obamacare, just that in an Obamacareless world people weren't dying left and right because they couldn't get meds.

Leafeon13N posted...

More people would be dead and more people would be in crippling medical debt.

And covid would have crushed the system.

I think covid would have crushed the system and we would have seen meaningful reform when the crushing occurred. It would be done in a panic and be much stronger than what we have now. That's my primary argument for Obamacare being harmful. It's not a hot button topic and IT SHOULD BE because the ACA is shit.

Instead we've deluded ourselves into thinking Obamacare works and we have deep blue people defending it hard.

The uninsured numbers dropped by 20 million since the ACA was passed.

There's a metric.

Get ready to learn about Roy Cooper.

Lopen posted...

I think covid would have crushed the system and we would have seen meaningful reform when the crushing occurred. It would be done in a panic and be much stronger than what we have now.

What

If anything, Republicans would have forced even more concessions if covid crushed the system. They can take advantage of the emergency much better than Democrats because they do not care if people die when they can successfully shift blame.