Lurker > KanzarisKelshen

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KanzarisKelshen posted...
Don't buy dodge on Jax. If you do your build is outdated by a year and a half and you should feel bad.

Well uh what do you buy for him then? His stun is based entirely on how much dodge he has, and the only way to get dodge other than masteries and runes is ninja tabi.

Flat damage. 20% dodge is plenty, your focus should be on your RIDICULOUSLY good scalings with AP and AD to kick the other guy outta lane early on.

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Don't buy dodge on Jax. If you do your build is outdated by a year and a half and you should feel bad.

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PartOfYourWorld posted...
Man, I guess trying to troll a topic with a "ridiculous" response doesn't work when a good portion of the people in here probably agree with it. Christ people.

I honestly didn't notice it was a troll response because people look like they're serious about it. Depressin, innit?

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Africa. Not really that difficult. Losing the videogame industry sucks, but it wouldn't be the end of the world and certainly wouldn't cramp up humanity's style as much.

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Win with a mageslayer.

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Biolizard28 posted...
Yeah, now it's official. I can't anymore.

Losing a game to a team of two AP/AD carries and Rammus while I have a Shaco acting like he's Garen and a suicidal Renekton.

It's not about ****ing team comp, it's about the fact that solo queue doesn't want me to win.

I'm taking a break before I ****ing hurt myself.

Why are you playing TT

It's a crap map

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Lopen posted...
From: KanzarisKelshen | #305
Justin_Crossing posted...
how broken would an "autoattack while moving" passive be

Ridiculously broken. It means the character is completely inescapable, because chasing is balanced around people lagging behind as their attack anims play, for starters. Let's also consider that it's like having a permanent mobility steroid a la Tumble too, and so on and so forth. Imagine if Ashe could attack on the move. Good luck catching her!
I think you're overestimating it.

For one, if it's on a melee character it'd be pretty much what Singed is. EDIT: Well, okay, a bit more potential as Singed even with huge amounts of AP still does damage over time so it's not gonna compare to a guy built pure AD. Still though, make that character "not too great" for melee and it'd work out fine.

If it's on a ranged character it's not really going to be tougher to escape than Ashe as long as it doesn't have Frozen Mallet, which would be the only potential gamebreaker there. Bushes and CC would still stop the auto attack, as would just moving faster than them.

Not if the character has a CVer on his team and packs Cleanse/QSS. A guy with mallet and moving autos is a better version of ashe that is ten times as hard to catch because you keep getting chainslowed as you go. Also, the big difference with Singed is that the attack speed of poison doesn't scale - imagine if he got two ticks per second and they had a 50% chance of dealing 250% times their usual damage. Doesn't sound balanced, does it?

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Justin_Crossing posted...
how broken would an "autoattack while moving" passive be

Ridiculously broken. It means the character is completely inescapable, because chasing is balanced around people lagging behind as their attack anims play, for starters. Let's also consider that it's like having a permanent mobility steroid a la Tumble too, and so on and so forth. Imagine if Ashe could attack on the move. Good luck catching her!

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Warwick the best. Tankwick gives absolutely no ****s.

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Oh, I'm not saying they're all terrible! Just that Project Chaos is a work of art and lays waste to all of them if you at all enjoy guitar heavy tracks.

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jRPG albums so bad

The S&K album meanwhile is pretty much 100% gold. Walk on Water, Malicious Fingers, Scrambled Eggman, Breathtaking Vision, Dead Batteries, Live at the Sandopolis...I could go on, it's all good. A bit guitar heavy, but it doesn't detract from it at all.

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Blulum posted...
I also don't think this is a bad thing. Just because people aren't elevated to mythical status in music anymore doesn't actually degrade the quality of music. People just get confused because they equate the best music only with people who are legendary. You have to listen to a lot more music than that before you gain any real perspective.

Of course, this is why I asked who actually listens to Bach or Beethoven on a regular basis. These composers are treated as godlike by people that would almost never actually listen to them, it's disgusting.

*Raises hand*

And I'd wager I have a much broader taste than most other people in this topic, since my library goes from noise music, to ambient, to forgotten 50's blues, to jazz, to the good ol' rock standbys. This doomsaying is ridiculous and you should feel bad for it.

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Blulum posted...
There will probably never be mythical composers like Bach or Beethoven again because making music is so much more accessible now and there is so much more variety out there. These are people synonymous with the time periods they lived in, the beatles were probably the last music act that will ever be able to claim that kind of status.

Which makes sense, because we're talking about select people over the centuries. The next ultra-legendary group is probably just around the corner.

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This topic is new, exciting, and correct.

/end sarcasm

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Ed Bellis posted...
From: Biolizard28 | #071
I was mostly referring to the Sirius thing. >_>

Your points make plenty of sense, if I'm getting the correctly. It's like, you have this big, world changing event, and rather than going into the aftermath and repercussions, it's just "Who cares, yay weddings and babies"
Oh. My bad!

Yeah, that's pretty much my point. Flashing forward into the future is fine, but the entire world the books constructed just got left behind abruptly. We get 'resolution' in the sense that we see a happy ending in the distant future, but there was so much left unexplored, left unanswered. JK Rowling said she'd 'like to imagine' Harry got a portrait of Snape hung in the Headmaster's Office. She - and we - shouldn't have to imagine that at all!

It's called ending fatigue, Ed. There's only so much you can stretch a climax before it winds down unnaturally and the reader ends up feeling cheated out of a decent end. Additionally, there's the matter of presentation - it would be very difficult to take the usual third person/first person viewpoint of the rest of the books and make it work over the years without making it much longer than any other chapter, or very jarring. That sort of stuff works in the books of Terry Pratchett, but on in the books of J. K. Rowling.

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Liberi Fatali below Eyes on Me 'gross'

Not that either is great (and I honestly agree with the writeup; it would fit perfectly as part of a bigger symphony, but it's a standalone piece instead), but that order feels so wrong

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Forceful_Dragon posted...
I guess I'll field this one ^_^


First of all the "2 builds" you are comparing only differ by 1 item (IE instead of the 2nd PD) and so the 2nd build costs 1000 gold more.



And second of all simple number crunching does not necessarily reflect how different builds work in practice. You seem to be indicating the IE is needed for roll damage, but attack speed DOES have its place in vayne, particularly when laning bottom. The idea is that when your opponents give you the opportunity, you punish them with a roll and attack(s). Because of that all that front loaded damage most people have to turn because they will not stand up to a sustained fight at that point. (Or perhaps you got into position to hit them after they were already turned, making it even less likely that they are going to turn back to you)

But the point is that you have a VERY limited amount of time to get your shots in and sticking the attack speed at the front of your build makes the most of this. It can be the difference between 2 shots instead of 1 or more often 3 instead of 2 before you can no longer attack them.

What's more I think you underestimate the value of silver bolts:
The third consecutive attack or ability against the same target deals an additional 20/30/40/50/60 plus 4/5/6/7/8% of the target's maximum Health as true damage.

I bolded the important part. The damage from silver bullets is NOT mitigated by armor at all. Getting more true damage procs holds a lot of value. And again the simple practicality of how vayne lanes and teamfights makes this viable.



There is also the idea of how practically you can finish the items and which ones you can make the most use of in which order. IE for this reason is NOT ideal on vayne and Cleaver is the much more useful first item to build. You'll get some attack speed (all the better to get the 3rd attack sooner with), and you'll get damage and the armor shred. All very useful. And so thats 2900~ gold down. You can NOT chase a cleaver with an IE because it just isn't practical. You end up saving 1650 for your next buy when you could be picking up your zeal for less than 1200 and then of course you'll have your finished product a whole 1000 gold sooner.

And so now that you've dropped nearly 6k on Cleaver and PD you will probably have survivability to consider if your opponents give you cause to worry at all. So thats 2700 on a veil.



The point to see here is there very likely will not be room in her build order for any kind of early IE. And also I think you under value silver bolts.

I see. The point where I disagree is on the frontloading - in a teamfight you just can't pull that sort of concentrated focus enough for Silver Bolts to pull its weight so straight-up damage is better imo, particularly because it makes your Q pokes absolutely incredible. I can see the argument for AS though - it's not the better damage build, but it is the build that is easier to pull off, which is very important in a real fight. So the IE build would be more like an "in case of winning, buy to winmore" build vs. the dancer build being "in case of long game and sustained farming, buy to keep scaling". I can see how Cleaver functions as a terrific first item regardless though!

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red13n posted...
Please dont thirster first on Vayne. She scales really, really hard...with attack speed.

thirster is a huge investment and a waste of a ton of damage(If you really wanted raw damage, infinity edge would be the item to get. But you dont)

Why would you get more than one AS item on Vayne. Your passive is going to proc once per teamfight if we're being generous.

Do not listen to the above statement.

At all.

Cleaver+Dancer+Dancer is literally the destroyer of worlds build.

I usually do some variation of the above with survivability items thrown in as needed.

For kicks.

That build's AS: roughly 1.85.

AS of say, an IE + Dancer + Claver build (using Cleaver because of the ArPen, swap it for brutalizer, beefsword and a vampscept if you want a little more sustain): 1.35

Damage of aforementioned build on a typical squishy per second: 648 (applying silver shots across all three hits, assuming you attack the same target without interruptions, should be 40ish damage a shot)

Damage of second build on a typical squishy per second: 638 (assuming about 25ish damage per silver counter)


So it looks like the first build gets ahead...but HOLD IT!

First build's Tumble damage: 512

Second Build's Tumble Damage: 810


So yeah red, gg but no re. AS Vayne is straight up worse because of Tumble unless I got my math terribly, terribly wrong. Not to mention Condemn, and the fact that usually, you will NOT be able to autoattack your teamfight targets to death because you will be the enemy team's most wanted and you lose a bunch of damage if you're kited away. As usual, even stat mixing wins over heavy single stat stacking.

PS: Just so that everybody else can replicate my results: I used Zerkers for both builds, and used Corki as my baseline test character. If you want to run tests on Heimer and Shen/Alistar to see how the builds match up against extremes you're invited to do so. I can run tests against higher armor/health values if you wish too.

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Anagram posted...
I've never seen a Vayne who didn't get attack speed items.

Why would you get more than one AS item on Vayne. Your passive is going to proc once per teamfight if we're being generous.

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Her jungle is pathetic. 7 minutes to 6 and without a leash she has no speed. She's intended to be bot, period. Whether that fits the meta or not isn't really important because she doesn't work elsewhere.

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My day just got made. Awesome news!

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LillySatou posted...
You are forgetting the AP regen.


14 AP per shot times 6 would mean that she would have to spend 84, just 1 AP under he regen.

You can spend one extra Gale Bullet at one time, but it wont regen unless you do the Tree Leave NP as well as the Wind God one(which is absurd, considering the upkeep)

It isn't actually. You lose 8 mana a turn if you go full-tilt onto Aya. That's...super cheap considering you're not only upping your damage but also cutting the reflection damage down. It's win-win and the only reason it might not be profitable is if you're on the move because the AP bonus mysteriously doesn't carry over between zones. You can literally do 30 nights of salvos before having to drop either Phantasm, and one way or another there will have been a death before that.

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And again, this isn't including Ayumi's familiars. Add them for bonus damage if you feel like it, but you still lose the trade if archer keeps permadodging rider, which she should.

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Yes, I'm running these calcs with full manareg and allowing Rider to decay. Archer wins the trade anyway because Alena only blocks three out of seven shots post turn two. Blocking a full barrage consumes 96 mana.

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SupremeZero posted...
Why the hell do you care about terukuni? Gale bullet was archer's single target snipe.

Oh, so you want to argue the attack that OOMs you in two turns, including jewel charges? Well...be my guest, sure. Archer wins that trade over time, easily with metagaming, pretty easily without. Plus she has the double damage shenanigans on top for extra funzies.

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SupremeZero posted...
Meanwhile, you take half damage. So you're roughly dealing around the same amount you're taking. At long range. Before rider.


-Crystal Reflector
Rank: C
Type: Reactionary
Properties: Physical Barrier
Cost: 14 mana
Requirements: A projectile attack is used against Alena or her servant.
Maximum Targets: 1 [self or servant]

Description: Creates a crystal mirror which can reflect projectiles back to their user. The effect vary based on the rank of the attack.
---Rank E-D: 50% of the damage is reduced and dealt back to the attacker.
---Rank: C-B: 25% of the damage is reduced and dealt back to the attacker.
---Rank A: 10% of the damage is reduced and dealt back to the attacker.
---Rank EX: No effect.
---Prior knowledge of an attack's properties is needed in order to set conditionals for it.



-Cork Sign: Terukuni Throughout the World
*IMPORTANTIMPORTANTIMPORTANT*Rank: A++*IMPORTANTIMPORTANTIMPORTANT*
Type: Offensive, Magical
Properties: Wind Elemental, Projectile
Cost: 100 AP, 125 mana
Requirements: Aya is at a high location. Wind God: Storm Day is active. 6 turn cooldown.
Damage: 63 Magical
Maximum Targets: Entire Map
Delayable: No

Description: A massively powerful spellcard that fills every corner of the map with magical bullets, offering no escape to anyone.
---Protected masters are hit for 40% damage.
---Doesn't hit anyone inside of Aya's current area.


???????????????

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For the sake of fairness I'll say one thing: Thundaga is an amazing skill and made Rider into a super workable area attacker because it combined with pretty much anything to great effect. Currently considering whether to run a math test with all-in conditions or practical conditions. Opinions?

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SupremeZero posted...
I will when the silly thing has 0 cooldown, yes.

Right, and at full tilt it OOMs you in...one, two, three and a half turns. With charges that's...six turns with off-the-cuff math, though I could be under/overshooting it by as much as a turn. That bounces about...45 damage or so? This is pre-resistances of course so reduced, it's about...30 maximum. Probably less.

EDIT: And to clarify, this is while tanking a potent attack that hits for 58 damage a turn. Pretty much a best case scenario as we're not discussing weak pellets but big hits.

EDIT EDIT: ...At long range, 10 damage is reflected back to Archer. Whoop-dee-freakin'-doo.

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SupremeZero posted...
What did ryo say about the intended method of combat here again? Maybe I'm crazy, but I think it was multiple teams. And you have a bloody damage reflector.

The 4-to-12-damage reflector? Are we gonna argue THAT? Seriously? I mean, if you want to argue it fine, I can include it in the math tests, but it remains a nonfactor. And I'm still waiting on a reply on what our ideal teams were because unless we ally with exactly the right set of people to block the pull+freeze trick we still lose.

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Also, just for fun and because I'm annoyed at you guys not seeing my point, I'm willing to run math tests against other characters. For fairness' sake I won't run a test against Assassin or Berserker, so go ahead and pick any other Servant/Master pair and we'll see how Rider fares. Just for kicks.

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So basically, let me clarify my problem: Rider had decent base mechanics, but the war just doesn't support sustained fighting like that. If everybody's base HP was 600, Rider would be a goddamn monster. But when burst is king and everybody else does BETTER damage in the turns that matter (i. e. the ones that aren't theory op) she just doesn't work. She would have gotten a hundred times better if Alena's jewel charge could have powered her up, or if she had a chance to drop stagger benefits when she wanted to, or if Odin retained skills. Really, she was THIS close to being good, but due to having hodgepodge mechanics was TERRIBLE instead.

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"doable without factoring for regen"

"240 base mana"

"260 mana costs"

The defense rests.

PS: with 30 manareg, it's also not doable at 320 mana unless you want to Ruin for the next four turns.

PPS: Method 3 has a sustained DPR of about 45 pre-resists so you still didn't refute my claim of doing crap damage until stagger is up. Also, you just pointed out to everyone that you have to burn most of your mana to max stagger on a character that relies on the 75% boost to deal good damage, so kudos on showing the incoherence of it to everyone.

PPS: And Method 2 suffers from super severe manaburn because of upkeep costs and having no followup attacks either. Ain't life grand?

PPPPS: In case it wasn't clear, the problem is that we need to reach 75% stagger to deal good damage. To reach those values, we have to burn so much mana we can't deal good damage anymore, or sit on Ruin chains while our opponents rip us to pieces. Funnily enough, we just happen to get outdamaged in that timespan.


@Satou: You missed the way I died, right? Just to be doubleplussure before I lol at you?

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...

Why the eff would it not be? I've been running it on XP forever. :-/

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Sceptilesolarbeam posted...
Scep, you've played more wars than I have. How many times do battles last five-six rounds? What about five-six rounds uninterrupted pre-final battle? If we had a skill to isolate people for two turns of 1v1, sure, I'd have played poorly, but in practical terms we couldn't use Army of One because we didn't have the mobility to strike and run.

Rarely, but that's a circular argument. The only reason battles tend to be over more quickly is because a team can usually kill any other team in approximately four turns. That still doesn't deny another option.

Yes, right, but when people band together battles don't last that long. Also, if I get killed in four turns I never get my high theoretical deeps, so we're back to square one already. And I also want to know what the hell is circular about saying "hey, enemies can burst us down before we get mad deeps and until then we're mediocre, there's a problem here".

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Sceptilesolarbeam posted...
You're changing your story somewhat. Haven't you acknowledged that there is a damage range where Zantetsuken is preferable? In which case it's not completely useless. Mostly useless, yes, but that's nothing new.

Incoherent is a major exaggeration, since you've already been able to create a theory as to the sheet's goals. And incidentally, there's also nothing wrong with a sheet encouraging drawn-out battles, as long as you pick your fights properly to compensate.

Scep, you've played more wars than I have. How many times do battles last five-six rounds? What about five-six rounds uninterrupted pre-final battle? If we had a skill to isolate people for two turns of 1v1, sure, I'd have played poorly, but in practical terms we couldn't use Army of One because we didn't have the mobility to strike and run.

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SupremeZero posted...
KanzarisKelshen posted...
LillySatou posted...
"lol im not to blame for writing a bad move"

1. It's pure Melee, and Lightning has a higher STR than she does MAA. When used against those with weak END, it does massive damage just because of this.
2. It has a large base, with a chance to deal more damage.
3. Instant death isn't that bad, right? Anyone who has been taking a beating will surely die from it.
4. If I'm reading this correctly, if it is combined with focus+a decent chunk of stagger, it should be pretty powerful.


@Shrunken:

I felt like Saber was a counter towards Archer. High STR, what seemed like weird movement(You literally came out of nowhere when I used my second CS, and I started the turn on a high spot) and how I intended to flee when you hit us before the GMaport but didn't for some stupid reason. Also, apparently you can kill Ayumi's familiars easily if you wanted.

1) It does 10 more damage than Army of One combined with Stagger's base damage bonus. Add an Elemental Strike and you have more damage for less mana. Don't give me bull about doing more damage when *we did the math on it*
2) My basic attacks have large bases too in the situations where we're comparing them, but they cost a fifth of the mana. They also don't shoot the stagger gain to hell.
3) Instant death is terrible when you need to have a target below 100 to kill...and surprise surprise, the base damage is something like 90. Sure worth it, burning so much mana on that 10 HP killshot instead of just fighting smart!

So basically you didn't read the sheet at all, which is good to know. Next time, do the math and then come back to me. Rider had good sustained damage, but sustained damage is not worth anything in a war.

Yes, Kanz. You will do 100 damage with a 90 base attack, when your offensive stats are C average. There's also hit count (Zantetsuken's 1 to Ao1's 11), and the fact that 100 health is still a good 1/3 of the max health.

And you forget the important bit: it's a third of max health after a good five rounds of combat because losing stagger made it nigh-on impossible to get some damage going. So yay, I'm doing 40 damage for four turns before spiking up to like...80 damage. By that point I've been kaboomed to zero. This is, again, on a one-on-one situation. Without a mano a mano, I'm down to elemstrike combos/ruin combos, which cuts the damage down further. Again, look past the shiny numbers and at the usability factor. You've got theory DPS, I've got practical DPS.

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IhatethisCPU posted...
Assassin won War 13 with an instant kill NP, Kanz. Just sayin'. >_>'

I could care less about that. I expect brokenness, I just want a sheet that isn't incoherent and self-obsoletes itself.

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Shruikonn posted...
KanzarisKelshen posted...
LillySatou posted...
Kanz, you played badly.



I don't think you even understood your sheet either.

Tank based sheet? A NP that is only useful for instant killing people within a certain range?

Apparently you continuously attempted to do nondelayable attacks outside their phase, even when told they couldn't be used like that.

Holy crap, Rider did like 5 damage in her first around against Berserker. Did you know that Berserker escaped our first fight with only 8.8 health?

Did you know that the orders for that turn got mucked up and I was not responsible for it? And apparently you're not aware of the damage numbers on your attacks, because seriously, Zantetsuken had no use. If you think it does, go ahead and explain it. I'm listenin'.

I heard 70 + X with a maximum of 90 base damage is pretty good.

I heard 70 base with a maximum of about 100 is better. Also, costs less mana. Also also, it debuffs. Also also also, it works at full power against fliers, unlike lolnoskills odin. I could add even more alsos about how Paradigm Shifting allowed for total superiority of basics vs. Odin, but I don't feel like it. It's obvious if you take a second to look past the shiny numbers.

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LillySatou posted...
"lol im not to blame for writing a bad move"

1. It's pure Melee, and Lightning has a higher STR than she does MAA. When used against those with weak END, it does massive damage just because of this.
2. It has a large base, with a chance to deal more damage.
3. Instant death isn't that bad, right? Anyone who has been taking a beating will surely die from it.
4. If I'm reading this correctly, if it is combined with focus+a decent chunk of stagger, it should be pretty powerful.


@Shrunken:

I felt like Saber was a counter towards Archer. High STR, what seemed like weird movement(You literally came out of nowhere when I used my second CS, and I started the turn on a high spot) and how I intended to flee when you hit us before the GMaport but didn't for some stupid reason. Also, apparently you can kill Ayumi's familiars easily if you wanted.

1) It does 10 more damage than Army of One combined with Stagger's base damage bonus. Add an Elemental Strike and you have more damage for less mana. Don't give me bull about doing more damage when *we did the math on it*
2) My basic attacks have large bases too in the situations where we're comparing them, but they cost a fifth of the mana. They also don't shoot the stagger gain to hell.
3) Instant death is terrible when you need to have a target below 100 to kill...and surprise surprise, the base damage is something like 90. Sure worth it, burning so much mana on that 10 HP killshot instead of just fighting smart!

So basically you didn't read the sheet at all, which is good to know. Next time, do the math and then come back to me. Rider had good sustained damage, but sustained damage is not worth anything in a war.

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LillySatou posted...
Kanz, you played badly.



I don't think you even understood your sheet either.

Tank based sheet? A NP that is only useful for instant killing people within a certain range?

Apparently you continuously attempted to do nondelayable attacks outside their phase, even when told they couldn't be used like that.

Holy crap, Rider did like 5 damage in her first around against Berserker. Did you know that Berserker escaped our first fight with only 8.8 health?

Did you know that the orders for that turn got mucked up and I was not responsible for it? And apparently you're not aware of the damage numbers on your attacks, because seriously, Zantetsuken had no use. If you think it does, go ahead and explain it. I'm listenin'.

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