Lurker > 1337toothbrush

CRON posted...

So it's basically Vampire Survivors but with Vtubers?

Yes, but they've been adding a whole bunch of side games.

It's an amazing amount of game for free. Here's the link for those unfamiliar: https://store.steampowered.com/app/2420510/HoloCure__Save_the_Fans/

Never, because democrats will always blame anyone and anything but themselves. Meanwhile democrats full-throatedly supporting genocide isn't "that's what you voted for", it's "but the other guy is worse *continues to send billions in weapons to israel*".

Starks posted...

Anyone that can rip into or steal his coalition. Someone that can defy demographic and long-term trends working against the party.

If those voters want a republican, they will simply vote for a republican. They're not going to vote for a democrat running as a Great Value republican.

bfslick50 posted...

I guess saying "weapon sales will continue either way with no significant difference either way" was a false statement. Who could've predicted that? But now some Americans will sleep better knowing they feel personally more distanced from those sales. I sure as fuck won't though, we really let those innocent civilians down.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/

Starks posted...

Simply existing on the coast with a name other than Trump, so-called "woke" policies, being a multiracial woman, her history on crime and protests.

If you think that's the case, are you trying to say that the only winning strategy for democrats would be to run a trump clone?

AceMos posted...

then what are you even argueing about

almost every one here agrees what is happening in gaza is genocide

we all agree biden is a monster for his support of said genocide

but like you we knew voting for haris was the best option possible

so why are you criticizing every one else for voting the exact same way you did for the exact same reasons

Because celebrating with "leopards ate their faces" and "I told you so" is wildly disgusting and inappropriate. Also, democrats should not have blame shifted off of them when they're a major reason why we're currently in the situation we're in.

Starks posted...

There's a faulty assumption here: You cannot coddle or please everyone with a shiny new object or policy. The change for the sake of change voters wanted Trump. Only Trump.

The voters wanted change but trump was the one candidate out of the two promising it. Harris's campaign should've listened to voters and catered to them, which is what any competent politician would do. Instead they said biden was fine and that we'd get more of that which isn't what the voters wanted to hear.

Westernwolf4 posted...

This. As if the problem here is whether people are being overly smug or not. Instead of, just as in 2016, we couldnt bother to unite against the obvious MAGA threat. Now we get Trump, who will be worse in everything for everyone. Worse for Gaza, worse for the vulnerable everywhere, worse for the economy, worse for the rule of law.

The rest of this is just chin music. You would think we would be capable of learning after 2016, when Roe vanished and a mismanaged pandemic cost thousands of lives just to name a couple of things. But here we are, having the same purity conversations with the same people while Trump slithers back into the White House to ruin everything.

You mean in 2016 where the democrats themselves elevated trump?: https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/

Democrats love promoting fascists on the other side to make themselves look good: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/09/12/democrats-interfere-republican-primaries/

It's a dog and pony show and I would argue maturity is recognizing reality for what it is. Democrats and republicans play off of each other to drive the country to the right, to the benefit of billionaires. The discussion should not begin and end with voting for the lesser of two evils. Yes, we should vote for the lesser of two evils, but let's not pretend this is going to solve anything and good luck trying to convince most of the population to consistently do the same. The democrats sure as hell aren't doing a good job of convincing them.

Foppe posted...

What is this talk that Biden blocked 2000 pound bombs since day one?
He stopped one shipment temporary many months into the war.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/

That's the sort of technicality that democrats absolutely adore. Other classics include:

"biden is the most progressive president in recent US history" - which sounds impressive until you realize that it's only technically true because democrats ran to the right for so long and biden was a slight movement left in a minor way.

"biden forgave billions in student loan debt" - which again sounds impressive until you realize it's an almost $2 trillion problem that was caused with his support in the first place

"republicans are worse" - technically true, but that's an extremely low bar to clear and democrats use that to their advantage to keep moving to the right along with the republicans to please their billionaire benefactors

WingsOfGood posted...

If everyone on CE voted Harris then when someone says "those who didn't vote Harris got what they wanted" shouldn't upset anyone on CE I would think

When "got what they wanted" is gloating over a ramping up of genocide, I hope you understand why that is considered grossly offensive.

Gwynevere posted...

Well when you have large swathes of leftists willing to just stay home, it's no big surprise that the Dems will put no effort into courting them. It's a waste of time and resources to campaign for a group that's probably not going to vote for you anyway

Progressive policy proposals won throughout the country, approved by even those who voted for trump. The main problem is that enough people's perception of the economy is that it is bad and that's enough for millions to not vote for a continuation of bidenomics. Harris promised more of the same and thus turned these voters off. The margin of loss is so large that it cannot be blamed on "leftists staying home" but pretending that was the case, wouldn't you think the smart thing to do would be to appeal to such an influential voting population?

WingsOfGood posted...

That is not it. It is simply certain users argued night and day to abstain from voting or nearly did suggest it, sometimes suggesting to vote for Harris = you support genocide. The board was exhausted with it. 500 thread after 500 thread.
Now after all those bitter debates we see unfolding before our very eyes "we told you so"
But I can understand it feels bad to have argued bitterly and you were wrong (not saying you were one of these I don't know, saying for those people that is the case)

Interesting that you think this is an occasion to celebrate, but I suppose that shows your priorities.

Starks posted...

The left of Harris has shown no path to 270 or any acknowledgement of the exit polls screaming that she was still too liberal.

Define "too liberal".

Cheetaluv posted...

I guess its ok now to say BoTh SiDeS huh.

When both sides support genocide, it is fair to say both sides. Those 2,000 pound bombs that TC claimed biden was blocking were sent to israel by his administration: https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/

Tell me, why would they send these bombs and then block their usage? The most generous interpretation is that biden did indeed block their usage, but still sent them in case trump got elected so that he could approve their usage ASAP.

AndyReklaw posted...

No one in here is supporting genocide. It's very easy to say that it would be great if the genocide wasn't happening but wishing isn't gonna get us anywhere. Our options were one person who was gonna keep doing bad and another who was going to do worse. I personally don't know anyone that voted specifically for the genocide. This issue was hugely important for me and so I had to settle the fact that I was voting for a bad option because I knew if I didn't it would be much worse. This isn't about inflating our ego it's about making sure people know what their inaction got them.

No one here is supporting genocide, just making a lot of excuses and minimizing the blame of democrats, which is the problem I've been pointing out. Instead of acknowledging this, they double down with the "other guy worse" whataboutism, which apparently is the approach you have chosen to take.

Who do you think on CE withheld their vote? I certainly didn't, I voted for democrats. So people here trying to lecture others about not withholding their vote are preaching to strawmen as a response to people who are saying that genocide should be criticized no matter who is supporting it and that regardless of what people do, a genocide ramping up is an inappropriate time to gloat with "I told you so".

Starks posted...

There's a difference between being underserved and having the rest of your self-determination simply ended with a stubby snap of the fingers.

"Underserved" are you fucking kidding me? If you haven't noticed, there's been an active genocide for over a fucking year now and you're labelling that merely "underserved"?! Stop trying to minimize the bipartisan support for genocide.

havean776 posted...

Oh I see when you vote Harris it doesn't support Genocide. It only does that when the rest of us vote for her.

Thanks for clearing that up!

I voted for democrats, but I made no excuses for their support of genocide. Do you actually understand now or do you need more help?

AndyReklaw posted...

Trying to keep the worse guy out is a valid reason to vote for a bad option. Especially when it was obvious the worse option is worse.

Sure, but it should not be used to excuse democrats for their ongoing support of genocide for over a year now.

Gwynevere posted...

Don't worry, I don't think any of us are under the impression that anyone learned a damn thing from this

That's too bad. I wish democrats would campaign on something other than "we're better than a fascist". Instead each time they lose they insist that they need to keep moving towards the right where the fascists reside.

AndyReklaw posted...

Nope. Anyone with any intelligence knew it would get worse with Trump. So if the choice was bad or worse then anyone choosing bad can't be blamed for not wanting worse.

For the millionth time, "other guy worse" is not a valid defense for democrats supporting genocide.

AndyReklaw posted...

And now they can share the responsibility for every death this decision by Trump leads to.

Does that mean democratic party supporters share the responsibility for every death in the genocide that democrats have supported for over a year now or nah?

cjsdowg posted...

This is an odd take from people on the Left.

It's not the left, it's democrats with this garbage take that this is somehow a "told you so" moment.

Good answer!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6pQpQFfGeE

Prestoff posted...

Is dis a copy and pasta?

No, this is me writing a post.

Regardless of what you think of this particular person, it certainly is a potential problem. A lot of self-censorship stems from reactions to opinions. You may be thinking "if people react poorly to your opinions then GOOD, you should shut up" but think about how in the past media was hesitant to portray interracial relationships. It wasn't that long ago when portrayals of same-sex relationships were also a rarity or completely absent.

It's easy to agree with censorship when ideas that you personally disagree with are censored, but then you're in for a shock when your advocating of censorship gets turned around on you. Just think of what musk buying twitter does to public opinion. He doesn't even have to explicitly delete your posts, he can simply instruct the engineers to tweak the algorithm so that your opinions get less visibility. When you notice that happening, what do you end up doing? You self-censor in the hopes that your opinion doesn't get buried. We see this all the time on youtube with content creators censoring things to fit within the "advertiser-friendly" image of youtube (e.g., blurring bottles of alcoholic drinks). Being able to shape discourse in this way is too powerful for a single entity to control.

No, this doesn't mean I advocate for nazis to spread their ideology. We should try to limit speech that can cause harm (e.g. calls for violence, hate speech, etc), but the problem comes in when the definition of harmful gets spread out to include things that aren't actually harmful (e.g. trans visibility being accused by conservatives as harmful to children). People can claim it's easy to make this distinction, but in practice, once the tool to censor is there, it's ultimately up to whoever holds that tool to make that distinction and you may not agree with it.

Thank you for Arcade Paradise!

Iodine posted...

Im very confused by this. I thought they voted for Trump in order to punish Biden.

The uncommitted movement, like described in the name, was to mark uncommitted on democratic party primary ballots to show disapproval of how Biden was handling Gaza. Its goal wasn't to vote in Trump. Democrats simply ignored the movement and continued their support of the genocide and now they're blaming everyone but themselves for their loss including this movement that wasn't even about getting them to lose. This is what I was getting at in the first post I made in this topic.

luigi33 posted...

Palestine at this point is doomed. Like, I wouldn't be surprised if people begin to talk about them in retrospect.

Palestine was doomed the moment the colonial project known as israel took root. There is a reason the borders were drawn up the way they were and it was obviously not for long-term stability. All actions since then have only reinforced the expansion of the israel, consuming whatever is left of Palestine.

CountCorvinus posted...

It's one thing to meet with Trump. It's another to act like he's his best friend.

Exactly. Given what trump represents, you'd think a meeting would be more like this:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/3/3f09fe97.jpg

LightSnake posted...

The literal only reason you can get away with this is the Politics posts being lost.

We've gone over this before. The politics board going away benefits YOU because you just make shit up about me and don't need to provide a link to any post. If you could link to a post, anyone with basic reading comprehension skills could see that you're making shit up about me.

LightSnake posted...

"Speculate." Yeah, whatever you say.

Oh really? What has trump done so far other than make nominations?

LightSnake posted...

I literally don't believe you do, honestly, given your utter apathy on every other crisis when you can't blame the Dems for it and what you've supported before.

Examples?

LightSnake posted...

Lordy, you're as unhinged as ever.

That's the best you could muster after being called out for only caring when you can score political points? Thanks for proving my point.

LightSnake posted...

Also, a reminder: Brush cheered on Trump leaving the Kurds to be slaughtered by Turkey and screeched at anyone who opposed it. Brush defended Bashar al-Asad for years up to chemical weapons denialism, and he said not a goddamn thing about Trump funding genocide in Yemen.

the only time he ever gave a shit about human rights is when he can tie to the Democrats. That's literally it. So yeah, I am saying his concern is fake. Only reason he can say this is fake is Politics is closed with everything deleted.

Oh look, LightSnake making shit up about me AGAIN. Even worse, it's the same shit he said about me before and where I explained my viewpoints exactly. Instead he chose to ignore that and regurgitate this bullshit again. Then he claims I am benefiting from the politics board closing when he's the one trying to use a closed board as a source for his bullshit claims.

Seriously mods, can we do something about people like LightSnake who make up bullshit and claim they represent the viewpoints of others even though they've been corrected many times already? Getting real sick of this.

LightSnake posted...

"No u" isn't an answer. You barely opposed him the last time he was in office.

According to who? You? We've already established that you read whatever you like out of my posts, make up false accusations about me, and have terrible memory at best. You're not qualified to be a judge of this.

"No u" wasn't my answer, I was actually pointing out that you haven't given a single shit about the active support for the genocide that democrats have been carrying out for the past year. You'd rather speculate about how bad things will be even though it's been horrific for over a year now. The difference is who is in power. Of course you don't give a shit now because you're only in it to score political points.

Unlike you, I actually care about the Gazans being genocided, including the ones being starved out right now because israel couldn't be arsed to stay above biden's minimal red line. The biden admin's respond to violating this red line? They're still going to support israel!

LightSnake posted...

I'd have compassion for this fellow, who did vote Harris in the end, yes.

You have compassion only if they've passed your purity test, huh? Too bad your compassion doesn't extend to urging democrats to actually do something about it. Instead you make up excuses for their support of genocide and scream whataboutism for what trump is going to do in the future, ignoring what is happening right now.

LightSnake posted...

I mean, you can barely be troubled to muster one iota of concern for Trump gearing up to be worse and installing vehemently pro-Israel fanatics like Huckabee and Hegseth as part of his admin.

That's obviously bad, but again, they're not in power yet. It's more productive to talk about what can be done now than to speculate on how bad things will get.

LightSnake posted...

They didn't cost the Dems the election. It's little more than a rounding error. This was purely an election decided from inflation of 2022 and matches global trends.

That was my point. People here are laughing at this guy for supposedly costing democrats the election and yet the movement did no such thing.

LightSnake posted...

Can you even pretend to be in any way concerned about what Trump is about to do to Palestinians and the US? It's a little telling you only ever seem to care to use it as a chance to attack Democrats.

You seem to only care about the genocide when trump is involved. I will have plenty to say when he gets into office, but if you haven't noticed, the democrats are still in power and have been for the last year they've been supporting the genocide.

If you want to accuse people of not actually caring, you should start with the people taunting with messages of "leopards ate my face" and other such messages acting like this is deserved. Or you could start with yourself, who makes all sorts of excuses and uses whataboutism to distract from democrats actively supporting this heinous crime against humanity.

I've been consistent in my views on Palestine and israel long before october 7th. One of the last moderations I had before the politics board was shut down was a post where I called out israel for what it is (and then later october 7th happened, and israel's reaction showed everyone, including the most clueless, their true colors). It's incredibly insulting that you keep accusing me of faking care. If anything this is another case of projection that you love employing.

Democrats during the election: "we can safely ignore the uncommitted movement."

Democrats after a crushing defeat that goes far behind the numbers of this uncommitted movement: "it's your fault we lost!!!!!!!!"

It's really disgusting seeing people take glee in what is happening just because democrats lost the election. The smirking "heh, they need help but biden is gone in a couple months hehehehe leopards ate their faces hohohoho" is a real mask-off moment for this board. Biden had over a year to help and he had the power to do so the entire time but instead he committed billions in support of the genocide.

Weren't you the same people who argued that biden's support of genocide is better than trump making it worse? Well biden still has the opportunity to force through aid to the starving Gazans, which is better than nothing, but he instead he still does nothing. Probably because all the talk about democrats putting any effort into alleviating the suffering of Palestinians was absolute fucking bullshit.

Whatever makes you feel better about getting totally destroyed by the republican clown party, I guess. I suppose you can gloat about how democrats would've totally stopped the genocide if they were competent enough to win an election against a clown.

They sure seem happy hanging out with a fascist.

nocturnal_traveler posted...

So the Democrats only have two choices. Create their own demographic of reliable voters, or cater to non voters. As we've seen, it's impossible to please everyone. Republicans already have reliable voters, so Dems need to create the same. Non voters can be unreliable, but their stupidity makes them easy to sway. As for creating reliable voters on the left, that can never happen if the left keeps up their refusal to unite. As stupid as right wingers are, they can be counted on to show up at the polls when the time comes.

Well one reason why it can be hard to unite the left is because democrats insist on moving to the right. They campaign like republicans and then when they lose, they claim it's because they weren't republican enough. So they don't gain republican voters (they're already voting for the republican party) and they alienate everyone else. The problem is that democrats cannot embrace the left without pissing off their donors because wealth hoarding runs counter to leftist causes.

havean776 posted...

Would of been nice if people voted Hilary so Trump didn't pack teh SC. But hey she didn't "earn" Those votes.

Would have been nice if the deck wasn't stacked against Bernie during the primaries. He seemed like he'd do a lot better during the general election.

Deej posted...

It's almost as if elections have consequences

Elections only have consequences for us peasants. We elected Biden and hoped he'd pursue Trump through legal means. Instead he appointed Merrick Garland to sit with his thumbs up his ass for four years. The supreme court comes up the whole "official acts" thing. What does Biden do with it? Nothing! Of course, Trump will take full advantage.

EPR-radar posted...

Palestinians in Gaza can't afford the kind of political stupidity we just saw from some of their purported supporters in Dearborn MI.

They can't afford this either: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/11/12/gaza-aid-israel-biden-us-deadline/

Jeff_AKA_Snoopy posted...

The fact that Palestinians were asking Americans to vote for "anyone but Trump" and there is some sort of debate at all about who you should vote for if you are wanting to support Palestinians is just depressing.

ooger posted...

None of that guys posts are in good faith.

It's wild that the mods have let him blatantly troll for 7 pages.

I never said anything about who you should vote for. If you haven't noticed, the election is over. You blatantly and purposefully misconstruing my words is trolling, but I'm sure you're mass marking my posts while hoping for a hit.

DrizztLink posted...

I'm not particularly interested in addressing your points.

So why should I continue responding to you?

DrizztLink posted...

You don't give a fuck about Palestine or Palestinians, nothing you've said or done for months now says otherwise.

and I suppose you making excuses for democrats' continued support of the genocide of Palestinians is you caring about them? You have no right to tell me what I care or don't care about.

DrizztLink posted...

You've already proven it several times in this topic alone.

So why bother?

You never bothered trying to understand my posts, which is why you think anything that you claim has been proven. I really hope the democratic party isn't filled with people like you or they're fucking doomed. Keeping your head in the sand solves nothing.

ooger posted...

LOL, like you've addressed anything.

I addressed many posts from multiple people all trying to jump down my throat. It's not my fault that you fail to recognize any of it.

DrizztLink posted...

Can't

bother quoting my whole post, huh? That'd force you to actually address my points instead of you throwing out another "witty" non-sequitur. Don't be afraid, I didn't write many words in that post.

DrizztLink posted...

Says the guy refusing to read the words of, I repeat again, actual Palestinians.

Because you think you know better than them, or because it's inconvenient when the targets of your single issue voting don't appreciate your efforts?

How did I refuse to read the words of Palestinians when I voted for their preferred candidate? The election is over and you're dragging out an article about preference for president to use as an excuse for democrats' ongoing full support of genocide. Stop using the words of Palestinian people to make excuses for democrats supporting their genocide. It's sickening.

WingsOfGood posted...

So why exactly did you vote Democrat as you say you did?

Because it's the better of two shitty choices. Again, criticizing the party and hoping there are some lessons that can be learned to do better in the future doesn't mean I support the other party. Stop it with your purity testing.

rideshort posted...

You've been this way for months on end and still continue this.

Continue what? Warning about the fuckups that our only hope in this crooked system is committing? Do you want democrats to win or do you just want to endlessly praise them while they continue making the same mistakes every election?

Tmaster148 posted...

According to him

> Voting Harris is pro-genocide
> He voted Harris

I said democrats are pro-genocide. I didn't saying voting for democrats is pro-genocide because obviously there are other reasons to vote for them. God, you people need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills. That is, unless you're misinterpreting my posts on purpose, but of course that would be trolling.

DrizztLink posted...

Whole lotta words for "I fucked up my single-issue voting and I want to blame someone/anyone else."

Have fun ignoring their directly stated wishes, you're just too good a person to be dissuaded.

They're so thankful.

Of course you'd think a single sentence is a "whole lotta words" when you've missed me pointing out multiple times that I voted for Harris and helped others do the same. I suppose reading is not your forte?

WingsOfGood posted...

Ladies and gentlemen, this is the words of someone who urged all their friends and family to vote Harris.
i wonder how that went. "Hey Kamala is utter garbage, but vote for her ok?"

Being better than trump, which is an extremely low bar to clear, doesn't make her good.

WingsOfGood posted...

When have you "urged everyone" here to vote for her? Never.
You rant all day long about how bad she is.
You do realize you don't need to say "don't vote for Harris" word for word to say "don't vote for Harris" right?

Urging people to vote for her here is preaching to the choir. If you think that's effective then it's no wonder you think the democratic party did a fine job of voter outreach.Your little purity test doesn't make sense.

WingsOfGood posted...

But sure I will scan this thread for such vitriol and point it out.

Have fun with your fruitless endeavor.

EPR-radar posted...

That's non-responsive to the issue of ignoring their stated preference.

If you haven't noticed, the election is over. I already voted for Harris and did what I could to get others in my life to vote. There is no Harris option now. What the fuck are you doing to support their stated preference? Making excuses for democrats carrying out genocide and using that very same article to do it? Disgusting.

DrizztLink posted...

Cool story, tell it to the Palestinians you've blatantly ignored.

I'm sure they'll understand.

I'd like to tell them, but israel is bombing them and all their infrastructure with the full backing of democrats, so it may be hard to reach them.

rideshort posted...

I'm noticing how this guy is saying a lot of bad about Democrats but is quiet with Republicans. Interesting.

We don't need to waste time pointing out that republicans are obviously worse. No one is arguing against this point so obviously not much is being said about it. Duh.

WingsOfGood posted...

Yet you spend all your time on the net doing the opposite? Doesn't add up

When have I ever told people to not vote for democrats? I challenge you to show me a single fucking instance. The problem you and the rest have is that you're misinterpreting criticism of democrats as lack of support. Again, this goes back to the conservative mindset of "America, love it or leave it". Criticizing democrats doesn't mean I support republicans. I criticize them because I want them to do better.

DrizztLink posted...

The fucking irony to say this immediately after brushing off actual Palestinians.

You're brushing off the ongoing genocide of Palestinians right now with your endless excuses. I never said trump would be better than Harris. This isn't a point that I've ever argued, but you think constantly referring to that link is some kind of gotcha.

ooger posted...

You've posted like six pages of whataboutism.

Sorry dude, if you didn't vote or voted for Trump, the supercharged, utterly horrific and inhumane stuff that is about to go down in that part of the world is 100% on your shoulders.

lol, you missed out on me saying multiple times that I voted for Harris and urged everyone in my personal life to do the same, but you think you can label what I wrote as "whataboutism"? Show me an example of whataboutism.

KajeI posted...

Tell us some more about what solution you've got then.

Under our two-party system, there is no solution. Democrats don't care if the reason for their loss is support for genocide (even though it wasn't), they'd run again in four more years with just as full-throated support for it. All I can do is call out support for genocide as the crime against humanity that it is.

Tyranthraxus posted...

This isn't about me. I'm a privileged dude in America who's life is completely unaffected by genocide in the middle east. The people you need to hear give the answer to that question are in Gaza.

This is what they said.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/anyone-over-trump-gazans-lend-support-to-kamala-harris-fear-pro-israel-trump-presidency/ar-BB1qQyKQ

If you're going to advocate for marginalized people, the first step is to listen to them and find out what they want. If you can't do that, then you don't really care about genocide. It's as others have said, this is about sanctimonious consternation on the Internet.

You know what else Gazans want, far more than any particular person for president? To not be genocided. How about you listen, pay some attention, and understand that genocide is a crime against humanity and should not be tolerated AT ALL. NEVER AGAIN.

KajeI posted...

I'm real tired of being preached at by people who've done nothing but shoot themselves in the foot while throwing everyone else under the bus.

I am also tired of being lectured by democrats.

It's not whataboutism to point out that democrats support the genocide with billions of dollars and even when setting a "red line" don't give a shit when it's crossed i.e. unconditional support. You can't get more supportive than that. True whataboutism is making excuses for genocide by saying other guy will genocide harder. The solution to genocide is not to support genocide "moderately" whatever the fuck that means.