Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 158: A Couple of Indy Schmucks

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TimJab
12/21/11 12:41:00 PM
#101:


another grantland article

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7374363/wwe-underdogs-your-moment

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MartinFF7
12/21/11 2:00:00 PM
#102:


Great read, thanks for that.

It's so true - victories in the ring don't carry the weight they used to, it's really victories against the "powers that be" that mean something...

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JaKyL25
12/21/11 2:10:00 PM
#103:


The great thing about that is that "victories over the powers-that-be" only happen with the blessing of the "powers-that-be."

We are all marks. :-)

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Kirby Driver Reborn
12/21/11 2:18:00 PM
#104:


I still have mixed feelings about Ryder winning, mostly because Dolph is fantastic. :/

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PrivateBiscuit1
12/21/11 2:20:00 PM
#105:


Dolph needs to move on past the midcard title, whereas Ryder needed pushed to the midcard title.

There, feelings sorted.

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Viktor Vaughn
12/21/11 2:21:00 PM
#106:


From: Kirby Driver Reborn | #104
I still have mixed feelings about Ryder winning, mostly because Dolph is fantastic. :/


he has to shake off his midcard title eventually if he wants to move up

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JaKyL25
12/21/11 2:22:00 PM
#107:


The Miz was the hottest rising star in 2010 and losing the US Title to Daniel Bryan along the way certainly didn't hurt him.

This is the equivalent for Mr. Ziggles.

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MartinFF7
12/21/11 2:48:00 PM
#108:


From: JaKyL25 | #103
The great thing about that is that "victories over the powers-that-be" only happen with the blessing of the "powers-that-be."

We are all marks. :-)


hahaha, true, true...

From: JaKyL25 | #107
The Miz was the hottest rising star in 2010 and losing the US Title to Daniel Bryan along the way certainly didn't hurt him.

This is the equivalent for Mr. Ziggles.


Also true!

My only problem with Bryan, and this was the same case with the Miz (and hell, even Swagger too), is that winning via the briefcase isn't enough since they're not even, like, legitimate threats. Didn't Rhodes just pin Bryan cleanly on Friday? Are we expected to beleive that Daniel Bryan can cleanly pin Orton, Big Show, Mark Henry etc. based on his recent performances?

Granted a face-briefcase cash-in is different than a heel one so maybe he can carry the title for longer... I don't see him being in the title scene at all come Wrestlemania and I'd probably be a bit surprised if he still had it after the Rumble...
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JaKyL25
12/21/11 2:55:00 PM
#109:


I've always floated the idea that yes, a Cash-In title reign DOESN'T magically elevate someone's kayfabe strength, hence why most cash-in reigns tend to suck.

What it does do is mix things up by throwing a non-main-eventer (usually) into a title mix he doesn't really "belong" in for awhile, and in many cases that experience SHOULD help him get back there eventually. See: Edge in 2006, Punk in 2008, and Miz in 2010. All three of those reigns sucked, but it forced all three guys into the main event scene for a taste, and they all eventually made their way back there without MitB. You can even say the same about RVD across company lines: his brief taste of the main event in 2006 helped prepare him for his 2010 TNA main event run.

And then you have some people who would never be World Champions WITHOUT Money in the Bank, i.e. Jack Swagger. I've always maintained that it's okay to have fluke champions sometimes, that actually get treated like fluke champions. It happens in boxing, and it happens in MMA. Sometimes some person is just a mid-level guy who gets in the exact right place at the exact right time, and then after losing that never has the skills to get back there without massive strokes of luck.

Bryan could fall into category A, or category B, but regardless, his reign will probably suck. As it SHOULD, in kayfabe. This is his first taste, and in kayfabe he's NOT ready for it. But that doesn't mean he will never be back.

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MartinFF7
12/21/11 3:33:00 PM
#110:


Excellent analysis is excellent.

I liked Miz's run though, it's what got me back into watching Raw... even if I can count his title defences on one hand, really..

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JaKyL25
12/21/11 3:38:00 PM
#111:


Well yeah, I meant his reign sucked from a credibility standpoint.

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FFDragon
12/21/11 3:41:00 PM
#112:


From a kayfabe standpoint, Jerry "The Falls Asleep During RAW Sometimes" Lawler should have beaten The Miz during that run.

That says a lot.

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JaKyL25
12/21/11 3:50:00 PM
#113:


And yet that reign, for all its crappiness, served a purpose.

It gave The Miz exposure, and that is his ultimate career goal--to be the center of attention.

Ever since he lost the title, he's been obsessed with getting back to that mountaintop that in his mind he has already PROVEN belongs to him. That's a fire inside that burns deeper than just believing that it should be yours someday, and that fire has burned many people over the last few months as Miz rages against the machine.

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Wanglicious
12/21/11 3:54:00 PM
#114:


so... miz is cm punk?

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FFDragon
12/21/11 3:54:00 PM
#115:


So you're saying the Miz's fire burns... always?

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FFDragon
12/21/11 3:55:00 PM
#116:


GOD DAMMIT WANG

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XIII_rocks
12/21/11 3:56:00 PM
#117:


pwnt

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JaKyL25
12/21/11 3:57:00 PM
#118:


Kind of!

CM Punk's mission is to make WWE "interesting" again, and he believes that he is the one who should lead the way to this goal.

The Miz's mission is to make WWE "relevant" again, and he believes that only he carries the media cache to accomplish this goal.

And in both cases, you can make a strong argument that both of them just want to be on top, and the first halves of those sentences are their individual justifications for the paths they've taken.

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X_Dante_X
12/21/11 3:58:00 PM
#119:


punk/miz tag team incoming

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edwardsdv
12/21/11 3:58:00 PM
#120:


Speaking of King, the way he talks about Ryder really irks me.

Ryder is, aside from Santino, the most unabashed of our comedy characters.

So when Cole says "this Ryder guy is a goof, he doesnt belong, he needs to go away", King arguing back that "hes not a goof" just seems so hollow. Especially when he could be saying things like "That goof(king emphasis) just beat that Ziggler guy youre always brownnosing" or "He IS a goof and thats why me and the fans love him."

To deny reality is both doing nothing for Ryder(since it implies if he were a goof, he wouldnt deserve to be champ) and makes King look dumb because the guy is a jersey shore ripoff who plays with his wrestling toys on youtube. He is a bit goofy! I think the biggest problem with King Cole is that King lets Cole win too many of the arguments, which buries like all of the faces.

By contrast, I always felt Striker and Josh and Booker always stick it to Cole and make him look like the petty jerk he is.

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edwardsdv
12/21/11 4:00:00 PM
#121:


From: JaKyL25 | #118
Kind of!

CM Punk's mission is to make WWE "interesting" again, and he believes that he is the one who should lead the way to this goal.

The Miz's mission is to make WWE "relevant" again, and he believes that only he carries the media cache to accomplish this goal.

And in both cases, you can make a strong argument that both of them just want to be on top, and the first halves of those sentences are their individual justifications for the paths they've taken.


Man this has me pining for a real Miz/Punk rivalry sometime soon.

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ScareChan
12/21/11 4:46:00 PM
#122:


Ryder is in an interesting position as when he is done with Dolph there is no obvious direction or rivalry for him. And to that I think that there is a lot more than can do with Ryder than a lot of people before him.

Ryder more or less is there only because the fans bought into him. Their love pushed him up the food chain. Beyond all that Ryder had really nothing to lose and everything to gain up until his match with Ziggler. NOW he is the US Champion, one of the People's champions, and now one of CM Punk's personal Agents of Change. This is an enormous amount of pressure for a dude whos goal was just to get noticed and take a swing at the ball. He's reached his mountain top.... Now what does he do?

I think the better route here is to have Ryder lose the title fairly quickly. And taking a snip from Jaykl's Miz analysis, Ryder now has that taste of success. For him to win and then lose it all when everyone was now depending on him and had his back would be soul crushing. I think it opens a great character analysis/ display and can tell a really great story. This guy achieves his dream and has it taken from him. Self doubt and depression sets in and he has to find his way back. They had potential to do this with Bryan not too long ago and chose not to really do it. I think Ryder's charisma far surprasses Bryan's and they have potential for something really great here. This could really make this kid the breakout guy of the next decade if they play this right. Will he be the Rock? No. But they can have something of a common man's type of Rock and that is more than you can get with a lot of people.

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JaKyL25
12/21/11 4:52:00 PM
#123:


Yeah, it would be really in-character dickish for Laurinaitis to come out one day and be like "You know Zack Ryder, you were right. I SHOULD have given you an opportunity at the United States Championship earlier than I did. I won't make that mistake again. Here's tonight's US Title challenger, Brodus Clay!"

"Are you serious, Brodus!?"

And then Brodus wins and Ryder is left back where he started. Then What?

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ScareChan
12/21/11 4:54:00 PM
#124:


Ryder's Dark Spiral could be like story of the year for 2012.

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JaKyL25
12/21/11 4:56:00 PM
#125:


Imagine a few weeks where Ryder is too depressed to even do ZTLIS so Ziggler takes over the entire thing.

I mean, his name starts with Z too!

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XIII_rocks
12/21/11 4:57:00 PM
#126:


...

Z! True Hollywood (Florida) Story?

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JaKyL25
12/21/11 4:59:00 PM
#127:


And then as Ryder finds purpose again, he has to start hacking into Ziggler's show to send the message that he's coming to reclaim what's his.

First the show...then the title!

EDIT: Oh man, Ziggler could even have a custom Internet Title belt made.

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edwardsdv
12/21/11 4:59:00 PM
#128:


From: JaKyL25 | #123
Yeah, it would be really in-character dickish for Laurinaitis to come out one day and be like "You know Zack Ryder, you were right. I SHOULD have given you an opportunity at the United States Championship earlier than I did. I won't make that mistake again. Here's tonight's US Title challenger, Brodus Clay!"

"Are you serious, Brodus!?"

And then Brodus wins and Ryder is left back where he started. Then What?


I was like 300% certain that was gonna happen on Raw.

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edwardsdv
12/21/11 5:00:00 PM
#129:


From: JaKyL25 | #127
And then as Ryder finds purpose again, he has to start hacking into Ziggler's show to send the message that he's coming to reclaim what's his.

First the show...then the title!

EDIT: Oh man, Ziggler could even have a custom Internet Title belt made.


So much for: Ziggler loses the title to move on to ME greatnes though.

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JaKyL25
12/21/11 5:03:00 PM
#130:


Well let's be honest, Ziggler isn't going to be main-eventing Wrestlemania 28 or anything. He's got some time to kill!

Extreme Rules is probably a great place for his World Title breakthrough (take two). Let him build momentum over the summer leading into a Summerslam match against...whoever.

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SmartMuffin
12/21/11 5:06:00 PM
#131:


Well let's be honest, Ziggler isn't going to be main-eventing Wrestlemania 28 or anything. He's got some time to kill!

Depends on how you define "main-event." I've still got him winning the rumble!

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JaKyL25
12/21/11 5:09:00 PM
#132:


I was actually using it in the looser term of "not involved in either title match."

But I guess you think that's a real possibility!

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XIII_rocks
12/21/11 5:10:00 PM
#133:


external image

...oh yessss.

new background.

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JaKyL25
12/21/11 5:14:00 PM
#134:


Speaking of Wrestlemania....

I think on the Raw side it's fairly clear. CM Punk will still be Champ and will be defending against someone, be it 1/2/12, a Rumble winner, or who knows. Basically plug in any of the umpteen heels in the company (or even ones from outside).

On the WHC side, who the **** knows. If you really wanted to make it a culmination of the last year, I'd have Orton coming in as Champ (having won it from Bryan via the Chamber), defending against Cody Rhodes, who wins the title. But there are lots of ways it could go.

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PrivateBiscuit1
12/21/11 5:16:00 PM
#135:


I wouldn't want Cody to win the big one yet. I feel like there are too many guys they still need to establish as solid main eventers before they give Cody a very obvious and predictably short title run that lands him in the very same position as about half a dozen guys right now.

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JaKyL25
12/21/11 5:17:00 PM
#136:


Bryan (c) vs. Barrett would be like an affirmation of NXT.

If they still cared about NXT.

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XIII_rocks
12/21/11 5:18:00 PM
#137:


I would be very happy if Bryan made it to the Chamber with his title. There's no shame in losing it there.

I mean really there's no shame in losing to somebody who outweighs you by 300lbs either, but yeah.

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MartinFF7
12/21/11 5:23:00 PM
#138:


Bryan losing it in the EC is understandable and a face can pin him there, np. But then that begs the question, who will he face (beat?) at the Rumble?

Big Show's still a face, could he be turning...?
Mark Henry dropped the title since he's injured
Barrett's still feuding with Orton
Cody Rhodes will have some IC title match

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ScareChan
12/21/11 5:33:00 PM
#139:


Do Show vs Bryan and have Show get so pissed during the match he knocks Bryan out and the ref out or something. Show goes over but Bryan retains.

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JaKyL25
12/21/11 6:00:00 PM
#140:


Speaking of Elimination Chamber:

Who does Cena face at that card I wonder? There's NO WAY they put him in an actual Chamber match a month before the Rock match and risk anything.

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PrivateBiscuit1
12/21/11 6:17:00 PM
#141:


Kane?

Then again, I don't know why they're using Kane against Cena even right now, since Kane needs to look like a monster now, and you can't have Cena looking weak leading up to his match with The Rock.

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ScareChan
12/21/11 6:18:00 PM
#142:


At the moment looks like him and Kane should be busy for a while

Actually if you take Miz out of the chamber him and Cena squaring off right before Mania is pretty fitting especially if you have Truth come back as Face night after the Chamber

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XIII_rocks
12/21/11 6:25:00 PM
#143:


From: PrivateBiscuit1 | #142
Kane?

Then again, I don't know why they're using Kane against Cena even right now, since Kane needs to look like a monster now, and you can't have Cena looking weak leading up to his match with The Rock.


This is what I said in the chat. It's bizarre.

I mean I presume they've got a plan, just because of all the people for Kane to feud with, it's the strangest choice, but...yeah. Very odd.

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SmartMuffin
12/21/11 6:25:00 PM
#144:


It's especially bizarre to feud Cena with a voiceless monster heel when you've just started teasing him for a heel turn, too...

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PrivateBiscuit1
12/21/11 6:27:00 PM
#145:


The only way I can see it working is if everyone keeps marking out for Kane coming out and destroying Cena, and Kane beats him clean, and then Cena has a freakout over how they're cheering this guy destroying him.

But that requires WWE to have the stones to turn Cena, which they won't do.

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JaKyL25
12/21/11 6:29:00 PM
#146:


Well regardless of whether he turns full time or not, he WILL be playing the in-match role of heel at Wrestlemania.

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TheRock1525
12/21/11 6:31:00 PM
#147:


Jericho/Punk at WM would work, IMO.

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PrivateBiscuit1
12/21/11 6:31:00 PM
#148:


Yeah, but that's in the same way he was heel against Punk in Chicago, which is to say not really.

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XIII_rocks
12/21/11 6:32:00 PM
#149:


From: TheRock1525 | #147
Jericho/Punk at WM would work, IMO.


People would pay to see Rock/Cena
They would go home talking about Jericho/Punk

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JaKyL25
12/21/11 6:32:00 PM
#150:


From: TheRock1525 | #147
Jericho/Punk at WM would work, IMO.


Understatement of the year? <_<

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