At least so far, after the first dungeon. Zelda games usually set their stall out strongly in the early stages so I'm worried that I'm feeling so negatively about this one so far. Hoping it picks up.
(minor spoilers for the first few hours)
It really strikes me as a game built around a control scheme, smart game design is usually the other way round. I mean did they really replace the Big Key with an annoying block puzzle to demonstrate on-screen manipulation? Was a good meaningful boss fight sacrificed for a showcase of the different ways you can strike an enemy?
Most of the puzzles in general seem less about being aware of your surroundings and more about constantly paying homage to the motion controller, its like a tech demo at times. Playing Uncharted 3 at the same time shows the chasm of puzzle differences between the two, in Uncharted the puzzles are solved by thinking, noticing patterns or familiarity and adjusting positions. In Skyward Sword puzzles are solved by seeing which of the controllers features are require in this case. It's like a "How To" and "How Not To" of puzzle games.
Even beyond motion control there's a lot of other strange decisions made in this. The method of control for one, it appears someone in Nintendo thought the ideal world control for this game was to take that universally disliked bird flying mini game from the Mario Galaxy games and use that as your main source of travel. Despite the fact that this mini game was so difficult to control it was worth a star if you managed to not hit stuff more than 3 times along a 2 minute route. A recurring problem in Zelda games is both how you're swimming in Rupees with nothing to spend them on and the rare need to ever buy anything from shops. They've rectified these and created new problems with these solutions, wtf is this shield breaking business about? Why create a mechanic to purposely discourage you from using your shield? The constant mutterings of Fi about it makes me believe that its the intended design that it breaks (or goes to low durability this much) and in one fell swoop the designers have their player excuse to revisit towns and a regular rupee sink. It's a short sighted solution up there with shooting the light bulb out because you want to go to sleep.
What did others who are further in think about it? I'm hoping for a dramatic improvement and that the game will get over its desire to hump motion control, upgrading will halt the excessive shield durability and the later boss fights won't be so goddamn bad.
From: __Smurf__ | #001 Why create a mechanic to purposely discourage you from using your shield?
Because half the reason the combat used to be boring was that you could press R to win except against the Iron Knuckles. This encourages you to guard only when it's truly necessary, instead showing off your mad gamer skills to pirouette around the enemies to slaughter them.
And yes, it picks up. Skyward Sword is the best Zelda since MM.
Given that its just quicker to die and come back than it is to repair my shield and come back I feel like suicide in working out enemy mechanics is the smarter option than even attempting shielding. Only shielding if theres literally no other way to progress. I can't help but feel this isn't a great system. <_<
I started playing around with those large spiders in the first dungeon. Was unsure how to kill so figured knocking it back and progressively bouncing it further and further back against my shield would have it swing too far and snap its web. But silly me that wasn't motion plus enough and I was supposed to swipe sideways. Doing that was a ticket to breaking a full shield in about 30 seconds.
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From: The Mana Sword | #006 Are you implying that the Ghirahim fight was not good?
No, I'm implying it was the worst Zelda boss I've ever played. I thought it was some sort of filler before the actual boss, was pretty annoyed when that heart piece dropped.
From: __Smurf__ | #001 They've rectified these and created new problems with these solutions, wtf is this shield breaking business about? Why create a mechanic to purposely discourage you from using your shield?
3D Zelda combat has had some longstanding complaints about its lack of difficulty. Much of this was attributed to the broken ass shield mechanics, where simply holding the block button rendered 90% of enemy attacks ineffective. In that sense, this game doesn't discourage you from using your shield, it discourages you from spamming it without skill. If you use it well (parry with precise timing), it actually gives you a good advantage in most combat scenarios.
That said, I barely ever used my shield, preferring to dodge attacks instead.
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The guard captain was kind enough to provide you with a practice log for shield blocking. Maybe you should have practiced there instead of in the dungeon. It's not like the game is trying to be mean to you or something.
From: PartOfYourWorld | #010 3D Zelda combat has had some longstanding complaints about its lack of difficulty. Much of this was attributed to the broken ass shield mechanics, where simply holding the block button rendered 90% of enemy attacks ineffective. In that sense, this game doesn't discourage you from using your shield, it discourages you from spamming it without skill. If you use it well (parry with precise timing), it actually gives you a good advantage in most combat scenarios.
That said, I barely ever used my shield, preferring to dodge attacks instead.
I understand the problem, its the solution that doesn't seem logical. The ideal solution is smarter AI, enemies who have more in their arsenal than a single melee swing to a central area on Link. Why can't enemies work together instead of all lining up to take it in turns to smash Links shield? Why can't there be more knockbacks or aerial assaults? Underground shocks, leg sweeps? Why is discouraging shielding to compensate for basic, static AI acceptable?
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(\__/) Meet Ziggy,the Evil Bunny who wants to take over the world and eat the flesh of the weak. (='.'=] Put Ziggy in your sig to support his cause.
Same progress as you, same general critique. The sword control is neat but not really what I feel as at all necessary and motion control sucks the life out of nearly every other thing it's used for in the game.
The shield thing is kinda dumb, yeah. They make a big deal about needing a shield, and using the shield... and then you use it on the first two enemies in order to get them to stop blocking, and it's pretty much done.
A shame because there's a lot of cool stuff creatively going on with the game.
I pretty much loved the game from the start although I guess the very beginning does drag on a bit, but at the same time it established zelda as an actual character I cared about for the first time in the series.
I thought the first dungeon was okay, not great but then again it's the first dungeon and I liked it a lot better than TP's first dungeon at least. the first boss battle was amazing though, definitely the best first boss a zelda game has had.
I thought it was an overall faulted but fantastic experience. Though, I do wish the shields had been more durable so as to encourage me to experiment with them more before I got to like, the final boss since I missed out on a lot of fun use of my shield before then since I just didn't bring it out unless I needed to reflect projectiles. The block puzzles were also very unwelcome and should never make a return.
But if you're insisting on using the shield nearly as much as your complaints imply and still losing it constantly... well, frankly, you're playing the game wrong and/or sucking. Stop holding it out to just block random strikes. You're meant to shield bash and durability loss is a punishment for sucking at it. There are also plenty of uses for Rupees in the game if you aren't just going back to town repeatedly half-way through dungeons when no new items will have popped up. I'm not sure why you expect for there to be new things when you're visiting in the middle of a dungeon, no Zelda game (or indeed just about any game) works that way. And try actually going to Beedle's shop since you have the Beetle and Slingshot now. There are also some pretty expensive items to buy in the Bazaar later. I still had things to buy at the end of the game and was in fact pretty low on money, even with getting every single goddess chest I could find.
SS is weird for me, on the one hand it revives the series creatively and achieves the sense of adventure and magic that WW and TP were devoid of, on the other hand it's full of bad game design that seems completely ridiculous to have gone unnoticed in a five year development cycle, did this game not get play tested at all? there's also a theme of overbearing hand holding throughout the game that doesn't go away even on the new game+ mode, they literally assume you're a mentally handicapped child even after you've beaten the game once. I don't want to call it mediocre because really there's nothing average about it, the game is both fantastic and outright terrible at the same time
From: Azp2k32 | #019 I thought it was an overall faulted but fantastic experience. Though, I do wish the shields had been more durable so as to encourage me to experiment with them more before I got to like, the final boss since I missed out on a lot of fun use of my shield before then since I just didn't bring it out unless I needed to reflect projectiles. The block puzzles were also very unwelcome and should never make a return.
But if you're insisting on using the shield nearly as much as your complaints imply and still losing it constantly... well, frankly, you're playing the game wrong and/or sucking. Stop holding it out to just block random strikes. You're meant to shield bash and durability loss is a punishment for sucking at it. There are also plenty of uses for Rupees in the game if you aren't just going back to town repeatedly half-way through dungeons when no new items will have popped up. I'm not sure why you expect for there to be new things when you're visiting in the middle of a dungeon, no Zelda game (or indeed just about any game) works that way. And try actually going to Beedle's shop since you have the Beetle and Slingshot now. There are also some pretty expensive items to buy in the Bazaar later. I still had things to buy at the end of the game and was in fact pretty low on money, even with getting every single goddess chest I could find.
I'm not holding to block it at all, I generally use my shield very sparingly and seldom. I was using it only in areas where I was stuck and experimenting to see if blocking was the way to go forward, like you mentioned I'm going to end up like you just not experimenting with it at all. I've always been someone who rathered dodging than parrying so ultimately this durability thing is just giving one less toy to play with and not altering my usual way of playing in the slightest.
-- Smurf The cream of Sonic Fanboyism. I liked smurf until he declared me worst user on board 8 - the jp
I never broke a single shield in this game and I always abused the hell out of shielding in other 3D zelda's, the game has a ton of legitimate flaws but this is just silly
From: SupremeZero | #026 If you're breaking your shield, you aren't shield bashing enough. Plain and simple.
From: tereziWright | #028 Busting your shield is a sure sign that all the hand holding in this game was designed for people like youuuuuuuu.
I love the irony of people who think they're insightful repeating things that were already mentioned and explained in the first 8 posts. Go back to youtube.
I love the irony of people who think they're insightful repeating things that were already mentioned and explained in the first 8 posts. Go back to youtube.
That would be why I called it the short version. Amazing thing, really.
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I would have enjoyed it if I was 14 and thought some guy in a cape with a sword was all dark and mysterious and awesome and and and badass and many other vincent valentine-isms. Characters like him were the type of fan service I'd hope were left behind in the 90's and our current generation of villains were something of more substance so I'll admit I started off on a bad foot with the guy himself. He feels like a bit of a throwback and a lazy rival archtype
The fight itself reeked of a mini-boss, I was a little taken aback that it wasn't. The first phase was a simple business of setting his hands starting point to your liking and slashing accordingly. The second was a fairly obvious return slash and blocking a charge. It was...dire. No sense of conquering something difficult, no interesting terrain just a circle room with some heart pots, no scaling a giant beast. Just some dude with a sword who occasionally attacks you. The guy wasn't even slain afterwards so where did the heart piece come from? He wasn't even a permanent resider in the temple, just some dude dropping in for Zelda as well. I'm all for breaking the LoZ code but this was all ridiculous and damage the premise and point of the dungeon a bit.
I guess Armos Knights were at least as bad, its definitely down there with the worst.
The game offers a challenge in demanding more precision from its controls. I thought it was very well done overall and appreciated it, but I understand that it's not for everyone. My brother is playing right now, and it took him a good 10 attempts to land in the correct spot after jumping off the Goddess Statue. Took me a few attempts as well. There is definitely a learning curve, and some people will simply not find it enjoyable enough to soldier on.
That said, the "demands" of waggle controls have been exaggerated by some critics. You can play this game with the controller on your lap, straddling your crotch just as you do with more traditional games and controllers. If you don't want to get into it and use full arm motions, you don't have to. The only times I recall the control scheme forcing anyone out of their "comfort zone" physically is with bomb rolling and harp playing, and both are used only sparingly.
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I haven't played this game nor read anything outside of the title in this topic but I am assuming that you have not played Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, or Spirit Tracks.
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I don't understand the people who think this game is a 10/10 or better than OoT. The beginning is atrocious. Seriously, I didn't think they could come up with a more boring introduction than TP's, but wow, Nintendo does it again! Cliche characters who talk a lot without really saying anything important, menial tasks, flying your stupid duck, a ham-fisted Link and Zelda romantic subplot...I mean, if it were any other game I wouldn't have even continued, but you know, Zelda good will and all that. Is it too much to ask to go into a Zelda game and be able to be done with the first dungeon in less than an hour?
I'm not big on the controls. Why isn't there a way to move the camera (besides Z-centering)? Why is there a stamina gauge? Why does Link get tired from running up a flight of stairs? I should not be in better shape than Link. Don't get me started on flying. I didn't find the combat as mind-numbingly awesome as some people. Wow! Now you have to swing your sword a certain way!
The dungeons are good. I can't complain there. The story does improve as the game goes on, but it's not noticably better than Wind Waker or OoT. It's about as good as TP, which I didn't really like at all. I guess that's how I feel about the game in general, about as good as TP, not deserving of its acclaim.
link is carrying a lot of heavy equipment, still he gasses way too quickly and even if it were realistic, the first question should be "does this make the game more or less fun" and it decidedly makes the game less fun. MM had it right, let us run all the time!
From: __Smurf__ | #001 It really strikes me as a game built around a control scheme, smart game design is usually the other way round. I mean did they really replace the Big Key with an annoying block puzzle to demonstrate on-screen manipulation? Was a good meaningful boss fight sacrificed for a showcase of the different ways you can strike an enemy?
This is the most pessimistic viewpoint I have ever seen about anything
nintendo's MO has been to build games around showcasing gimmick controls first for the past 6 years, other aspects of game design are secondary to them. longer than that really if you consider the DS. this is nothing new
From: Liquid Wind | #046 link is carrying a lot of heavy equipment, still he gasses way too quickly and even if it were realistic, the first question should be "does this make the game more or less fun" and it decidedly makes the game less fun. MM had it right, let us run all the time!
Yep.
I don't get the obsession with realism some developers have
It's not really for realism purposes, the stamina meter is incorporated into some puzzles and whatnot. It also stops you from spin-attacking everything to death.
Anyway, Smurf.
First up, many, many well-designed games have been made entirely around a control scheme. One example: Super Mario 64. Peope overlook it now, but that game treated the analogue stick (and 3D movement in general) like this game treats motion controls. The game is designed around using the controls for creative and fun experiences.
Also the Ghirahim fights are fantastic. Speaking of which.
__Smurf__ posted... I would have enjoyed it if I was 14 and thought some guy in a cape with a sword was all dark and mysterious and awesome and and and badass and many other vincent valentine-isms. Characters like him were the type of fan service I'd hope were left behind in the 90's and our current generation of villains were something of more substance so I'll admit I started off on a bad foot with the guy himself. He feels like a bit of a throwback and a lazy rival archtype
Did you read his dialogue? Did you actually watch his mannerisms? He's nothing like that. I'm not sure there's ever been a villain quite like Ghirahim. He's not about being "badass" or "mysterious" (though he is both). He's about being both flamboyant and threatening, and appearing physically bizarre, yet graceful. And his dialogue is an absolute treat to read (spoilers: he gets all the best lines).
I mean how many villains introduce themselves by practically licking the main character.
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