Board 8 > Ace Attorney Discussion Topic, Part 6 - This Reminds Me of a Crossover Edition

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'd say you should be fine without it, but if you can't remember who Frank Sahwit was, I might have to reconsider...!
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AA5/6 are like AA4 in that they're almost a complete break from the original trilogy. The only older game characters to return, off the top of my head, are major, and they'll remind you of their roles once they appear, too.

LeonhartFour posted...

And the "I've never lost a case" line, too.

I think for this reason, 3-2 Day 1 never felt light on Godot whatsoever. I actually thought 3-2 was probably Godot's best case, though he's consistently excellent in all his appearances.
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If you're talking about the impact he has on the case, Godot doesn't do very much day 1. He mostly lets Phoenix just do his thing while throwing in the occasional zinger, which works because he's Godot.
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Alright, thanks for the opinions, everyone. I'm glad we have this convenient Ace Attorney discussion topic!
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everyone's doing this top 50 RPGs list thing

I wonder if I've played 50 RPGs
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I don't think the 17 cups line was in day 1, but I've been playing this case very slowly so I might have forgotten it

On an unrelated note, having an entire freaking shaker of red pepper spill on your pizza because the cap wasn't screwed on well enough is a great way to ruin your day!
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i don't think i've played 50 video games, much less beaten that number

in terms of rpgs i might be in single digits
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Interesting thing I noticed about L-1 on a replay:

Even in this British localization (it's especially easy to tell because they keep referring to Phoenix as a "defence" attorney, which looks wrong every time I see it), Phoenix is American. He keeps on calling it a 'flashlight' when everyone else (including the game's text) calls it a 'torch', and they have a little fun with this with Phoenix eventually catching onto calling it a torch - later, he makes mention of the 'soccer' scores in the paper.

This makes sense, I guess, because L-1 is predicated on Phoenix being a foreigner, so he has to be anything but British. This makes me wonder actually, does the UK have a separate localization for the other games or does it use the American one? There are a lot of slight things that throw me off in LvW, like using "Mr" or "Ms" without a period, or writing a time as "12:20pm", and I'm not sure if that's standard in the UK or what.

Either way, though, it's a nice little detail. It's funny, of course, because Phoenix was not originally American at all, yet I feel like he's representing my country well!

Yeah, that's standard British grammar. I think the localizations are the same because Layton/PW has Luke's British VA instead of his American one.

But yeah, I noticed those little things, too. Last Window is weird like that, too, because all the characters will use American versions of words (like "elevator" instead of "lift") since the game is set in California, but they still use British grammar.
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I was sorting mail in the back this morning when I overheard some dude talking to the desk clerk (who had no idea what he was talking about since she's probably my mom's age) and saying that the package he just picked up was an FFX necklace. I wanted to shout some dumb line from the game or maybe just do the HA HA HA HA HA HA HA but I elected not to do so.
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opportunity missed
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yeah I've been regretting it all day
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All right, I finally finished Chapter 1 in Layton/AA. It took me a while because it's been busy the last few days and I think I've realized I can only handle the Layton style of gameplay in short bursts, at least in this game. It's just not that interesting because most of the NPCs are boring and you're only talking to them in case they have a puzzle. The only NPCs around town so far who are worth talking to are Ridelle (who reminds me of Yuki Nagato), Lettie, and Patty. I really like the Labyrinthia town theme though. It's very pleasant to listen to and kinda catchy. I'm listening to it as I write this, actually! I've surprisingly done really well on most of the puzzles so far, too! I dunno if it's just memory or good luck. The only one I got stuck on for a little bit was that stupid stamp puzzle where you have to fill it out in a certain way.

Anyway, in terms of the story, it's interesting how much foreshadowing is in this initial chapter. Darklaw is in the wagon with Layton on the ride into Labyrinthia (although her face is obscured, you can make out her cat-like horns through the hood), and she hints that she's the one who set all this in motion. You get lots of foreshadowing of memory manipulation/brain washing/hypnotism here, too, such as no one being able to remember who Carmine was, even Espella. They also introduce Espella's cat Eve and the pendant she wears. The big one is when Phoenix and Maya say they've been working in the bakery for five years, and Espella corroborates the story. As the player, you obviously know that's a load of crap, but you don't really know how to solve the contradiction yet. Phoenix and Maya are pretty great as Ace Bakers though. WELCOME!

Probably the big event in this chapter is the Storyteller's parade and the new Story that foretells two companions being burned by a witch. The game tries to lead you into thinking that the two companions might be Layton and Luke, which you know won't happen (although they pull off a much better misdirection in the next case). They also get in trouble for even suggesting that the Story might not come true. They've really got the medieval mindset down pat in this town!

The Great Archive is a pretty cool location, and as I said before, Ridelle is a fun character. All the stuff about the Grand Grimoire, the Legendary Fire, and the Great Witch Bezella is pretty interesting. Espella is so clearly disturbed by seeing the mural of the Legendary Fire that they even give her a quick ten second cutscene of her freaking about it, for some reason! Then she disappears afterward and the chapter ends by the knights rushing in to the bakery, telling Phoenix that Espella has requested his defense--er, excuse me, "defence." Right before that, there's a great scene of Layton trying to teach Phoenix and Maya about puzzles, and they have rather unique approaches to solving them, which is hilarious.

All right, L-2 begins tomorrow!
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Mass Effect series is going on hiatus for a few years, huh. Makes me sad.
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Oh right, I forgot to mention another foreshadowing bit: Everyone is clearly afraid of Espella.

Anyway, I started L-2, but didn't get too far into it. I forgot how cool the intro here is, with Phoenix and Maya being confused as to why they're here, but Phoenix slowly starting to get back to his old self. It feels a little reminiscent of 2-1. Plus, they go for the big shock factor when you walk in to the courtroom and the first thing you see is a witch being dropped into the fire pit. I like the Labyrinthian Judge's voice, and he probably comes closest to capturing the essence of the normal Judge (aside from his brother anyway). Barnham's introduction is cool, too, and I think I dig the crowd chanting here more than in other games because there's such a mob mentality to this whole system. I like how when they chant Barnham's name, it sounds like they're saying, "Burn 'em!" L-2 is a really solid introduction to the whole thing, but it's a little less effective on a replay once you know all the tricks.
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Replaying E2-2 right now

"Detective. Checkmate is derived from the phrase, 'The king has been cornered.'"

I just had to share how laughably badly translated this line is

Gumshoe also says that he thinks the term Checkmate comes from the patterns on the board "looking like check marks", which makes no sense

That syntax feels distinctly anime-subtitle-esque. That said, 'check marks' making no sense is no reason for Gumshoe not to say it...!
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I would have gone with "the board looks like a checkerboard" and checkmate being derived from "putting the king in check" (difficult to explain the origin of the word in fewer words than this).

Saying "cornered" is kinda fitting for Ace Attorney, so I don't mind that one so much. Gumshoe's observation just doesn't make any sense, and not in the way that his observations in the OT are absurd because you can at least figure out how he reached that conclusion, even if it's completely wrong.
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You would have to rewrite the sentence to something like "The word 'checkmate' is used when the king is cornered" or something like that if you want to stick to the cornered metaphor. To say that "checkmate" is derived from a phrase in which neither the words 'check' nor 'mate' are mentioned is a complete non-sequitur and makes no sense.

I kind of like my suggestion of Gumshoe thinking it comes from checkers, because that both A) makes sense from a wordplay standpoint and B) implies that Gumshoe is unfamiliar with chess but understands checkers, a less complicated and upper-class game, which is fitting for him. (I feel like he's said something to this effect before in one of the other games, maybe AAI1)

Yes, Gumshoe talks about how he's really good at checkers if you examine Edgeworth's chessboard in either E1-1 or E1-2. Whether he's actually good at it or not is anyone's guess!
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Still working my way through L-2 little by little! I like Barnham as a character (Great theme music, by the way). He's one of the few reasonable characters in Labyrinthia, which is good, because of how badly everything else is stacked against Phoenix here, with magic being accepted as common sense, no one knowing what the heck fingerprints are, and the multi-person testimony format. I actually like that as a gimmick in Layton/AA. It's pretty fun, although they don't do as much with it as they could, while somehow simultaneously going way overboard with it in L-4 with that ridiculous 9-person Vigilante testimony. I like how you can see the witnesses huddling up preparing for their next testimony after Phoenix points out a contradiction. L-2 really does a good job of driving home how different this system is from normal.

Speaking of great theme music, Layton busts in to help Phoenix out with the Grand Grimoire, and now the defense's bench is very overcrowded! Organized chaos is the norm in Labyrinthia though!
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It's funny that L-2 is the only case in the game where Phoenix/Maya/Layton/Luke are all together.

Yeah, that's true. Even in L-4 when Layton comes back toward the end, Luke is off somewhere doing his thing.

although gold statue Layton is in L-3 which is close enough I say
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Finally finished 6-4 :P
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LeonhartFour posted...

Yeah, that's true. Even in L-4 when Layton comes back toward the end, Luke is off somewhere doing his thing.

although gold statue Layton is in L-3 which is close enough I say

In neither of those cases are the Phoenix duo and the Layton duo on the same 'side', though

well, in L-4 they basically are working together but they're still on opposite sides of the court... for some reason

Layton is basically being 2-4 Edgeworth in L-4.

and they technically all do end up on the same side by the end of L-3
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Okay, yeah, I guess that's true with L-3

Although Maya is actually in the cage the whole time, so she's never at the defense's bench. Espella fills that role instead, and it might be the best thing she does in the game (although I don't hate her like a lot of people seem to).
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I don't really "hate" Espella, she's just boring and I have little interest in LvW's overarching plot

I didn't know people hated Espella! She's alright. She has a cute design and I was never actively annoyed with her. But she has a lot to do with the main plot that I'm not too big a fan of.
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Espella is kinda bad in L-4 when she starts going all "woe is me I'm Bezella," but she's likable enough the rest of the game.
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All right, L-2 complete! Five testimonies in all: Three with the group of four and two with Some Guy added in. The final piece of evidence was the milk bucket so you can point out where Kira's glasses went and place her at the scene of the crime. This case was more fun than I remembered. I like how unconventional everything is, with witnesses just making stuff up on the fly and outright contradicting each other along the way. The controlled chaos of the witch trials is pretty fun when they do it well. I like how everyone gets so utterly baffled by Phoenix and Layton using logic like it's some kind of witchcraft, but it's neat when Barnham proves he's rather adept at adjusting on the fly, too, and starts using logic himself. It's weird to think he's only the prosecutor--excuse me, inquisitor--for two cases, but I do like him as an opponent. I enjoy how Phoenix gradually earns the respect of Barnham and the Judge, and they stop referring to him as a baker about halfway through.

Some Guy's appearance adds a lot to this case. I don't think it's nearly as good without him. He's medieval town drunkard Larry Butz, except somehow he's even more hated by everyone around him. I love that no one can remember his name, and that it actually ends up being a very important plot point! It's hilarious when Mary and Kira are both arguing that they'd never associate themselves with such a useless man...with Some Guy standing in between them and having to suffer all the insults they're throwing his way.

Kira is a pretty decent villain, and I think the fact that she actually gets some voiced lines helps her. Toward the end when she just starts speaking super fast and rambling about how she can't possibly be a witch, and then slowly delivering the last two words "You lose," it's a really well delivered series of rapid-fire lines. They try to make her a bit sympathetic at the end, although it's hard not to feel bad for someone who gets executed on the spot for being a witch. Kira accuses Espella of being Bezella and says that's why she framed her for the crime. When Bezella is executed, the witch trials will end, and then Kira wouldn't have to live in fear of being discovered anymore.

Chapter 1 playtime: 2:58:31
Chapter 2 playtime: 3:16:00

L-2 investigation playtime: 2:58:31
L-2 trial playtime: 3:16:00
L-2 total playtime: 6:14:31

6-5 - 14:03:49
E2-5 - 9:36:06
3-5 - 9:35:46
2-4 - 9:05:21
1-5 - 8:46:43
E1-5 - 8:42:23
6-3 - 8:13:50
E2-3 - 8:09:06
E2-2 - 7:29:23
5-6 - 7:21:19
5-2 - 7:13:40
5-3 - 6:50:24
4-4 - 6:38:01
5-5 - 6:16:05
6-6 - 6:04:07
3-2 - 6:02:56
E2-4 - 6:01:14
6-2 - 5:58:46
4-3 - 5:58:33
3-3 - 5:48:31
2-3 - 5:06:33
1-4 - 4:59:52
4-2 - 4:58:35
E1-4 - 4:58:26
2-2 - 4:47:40
5-4 - 4:27:31
E1-3 - 4:02:16
1-3 - 3:49:35
E2-1 - 3:36:32
6-4 - 3:21:23
L-2 - 3:16:00
E1-2 - 3:15:49
6-1 - 2:59:52
1-2 - 2:40:40
5-1 - 2:19:33
4-1 - 2:11:44
3-4 - 1:54:15
E1-1 - 1:44:51
3-1 - 1:43:09
L-1 - 1:39:12
2-1 - 1:15:57
4-0 - 1:09:44
1-1 - 0:33:35
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"Do you LIKE evidence, Sir Defender? Do you LOVE proof, Sir Top Hat?" gets me every time

It annoys me how she says "Ha! You can't prove it!" though

I have to say, the Steel Samurai's Ballad doesn't have quite the same emotional pull when in the context of dropping an urn in some paint
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eh it's kind of overrated anyway
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Working my way through L-3. Everyone is together for the early part of the investigation here. They're informed by Barnham that they have two weeks before Espella's trial as Bezella, so we know how much time we have. He also adds that he was not the one who filed the charge against her. That was--you guessed it--High Inquisitor Darklaw. Phoenix and Maya recognize her from L-1, although they never bother to ask her about it for some reason.

There's a weird nighttime investigation with Luke and Maya where they go looking for Eve. It's surprisingly long because you have to solve four different puzzles all over town, but they're pretty good together. We find both Eves, the cat and the human, who is dressed in all black to further the resemblance to the cat. She mentions the murder of the alchemist by a witch in passing and calls Maya by name as she leaves, which she finds strange since she technically shouldn't know it. She warns her that witches can be found in the most unexpected places. I dunno if Eve is foreshadowing that she's setting up Maya for L-3 or what, but that seems to be the implication as I read it.
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The weirdest part of LvW is, after they say 'oh we saw the cat go over there' and then you go over there and Darklaw is just randomly hanging out, I was like, "oh god, she's obviously the cat. Are they really making it that obvious? She's a witch and she turns into a cat. So obvious." You then continue to never see Darklaw or the cat in the same place at once, so I was like, theory confirmed.

But then she's not the cat. I mean based on how magic works in this world it would have been impossible anyway, but they like just suddenly have the cat and Darklaw in the same place and never acknowledge that they were so obviously leading me on. But then she does have the same name as the cat! It's so fucking bizarre that I can't tell if they were trying to hint at something or not.

Also, I'm replaying this at the exact same time as you, so I just beat L-2. I have to say, I moved L-1 and L-2 both up my rankings a fair bit after this. The murder mysteries are fairly shallow in both cases, but they make up for it big time in writing, characters, theatrics, music - the whole she-bang. Aside from Phoenix's weird character model, the presentation in this game is absolutely superb and I find myself appreciating all the little touches a lot more on replay, even if the main plot makes me groan.

L-2 in particular only has like 6 pieces of evidence plus two spells in the Grand Grimoire, which is damn close to the fewest pieces of evidence in any case (pretty sure 1-1 has fewer... but that might be it. Even L-1 has more), but the witnesses, despite being one-note Layton caricatures, are a hell of a lot of fun, Barnham is a really cool opponent (his actually-fair-and-just prosecutor schtick works surprisingly well), the whole atmosphere of making it like an angry mob actually is executed better than in AA6 where it's more weirdly out of place, the music is really fantastic, and L-2's murder mystery isn't actually that bad - I'm a big fan of cases where you have something really good at the end to corner the murderer, and the glasses in the milk bucket, while obnoxiously coincidental, is a really strong nail in the coffin.

in contest land

'welp, it looks like 1996 was the favorite, i'm boned'

'wait i picked 1996?'
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Well, they're hinting that Eve the cat is a misrepresentation of Espella's memories of Eve her friend, which is why Darklaw has cat ears hair. Eve is still somehow a real cat though, I guess. It's weird.
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Right, that's the weird thing? Eve is still somehow a real cat.

Ugh, I'm not gonna mince words. I hate LvW's plot. Everything else about the game is good! It's surprisingly not even the worst Ace Attorney game imo. But man, I just don't like Layton plots.

The 17 cups of coffee line is apparently at the beginning of trial day 2 of 3-2.

I don't really have any issue with Layton style plots in genera myself. The "oh jk Espella didn't accidentally do this terrible thing, that we built this whole medieval simulation town to avoid having her confront. It was just Darklaw! What a relief!" was kind of ridiculous, though.
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Didn't play much today. Just got to the part where the pairs split up, Phoenix and Maya to investigate Espella's case, and Layton and Luke to visit the Storyteller, who's summoned them to his chamber.
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Looks like DD is finally coming to Android!
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LordoftheMorons posted...

The 17 cups of coffee line is apparently at the beginning of trial day 2 of 3-2.

That sounds right, actually. Godot drinks his last cup before the final testimony, right?
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Working my way through L-3 a little more now that the two duos have split up. In Layton's part, the Storyteller informs them that he was not the one who summoned them to Labyrinthia, which is perhaps the first big hint that there's a Revolver Ocelot pulling the strings behind his back to undermine him. The game does a good job of swerving you into thinking the Storyteller knew what was happening to Bezella because he talks about how his Story is leading up to the climax of the Great Witch being burned and restoring peace to Labyrinthia. The game gives you the initial impression that he's essentially omniscient, but that's definitely not the case.

In Phoenix's part, the big bombshell is that Espella is the Storyteller's daughter, and that's why everyone avoids her. They're afraid of being cursed if anything bad should happen to her because it seems someone was killed by a witch after accidentally knocking her over one time. She also used to live with the Storyteller until he became too obsessed with the Story and didn't have time for her anymore. I like Espella as a character, but I think it's mostly because I feel a strong sense of sympathy toward her since she's lonely and ostracized by most of the town. She just wants to feel needed and helpful to people, and she can't seem to find it, no matter where she goes. It's sad. The game also tries to give you the impression that the Storyteller is setting up his own daughter to be Bezella, which adds to the tragedy, but again, it's just trying to mislead you.
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The Storyteller is kind of cooler than I remember in this part. He's a pretty weird villain.

Also I think that if this part counted as an investigation day it would possibly be the longest... except for L-4's, which would really be the longest in the series for certain.

The stretch between the end of L-3 and L-4's trial is extremely long, yeah. L-4 probably takes up close to half the game, honestly.
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All right, Chapter 3 finished! Investigating Belduke's house with Phoenix and Maya is pretty cool. I really like Greyerl, too. She's probably my second favorite Layton/AA character behind Darklaw. Her thinking animation is great. I always forget she's pretending to be a boy when you first meet her until Phoenix starts calling her "Mr. Greyerl." The cutscene of lightning striking the pure black cloth over the bell tower, causing it to appear in flames, is really cool looking. Greyerl makes it clear that the appearance of the bell tower unsettled Belduke greatly, and he changed completely. The characters also occasionally allude to the fact that they never hear the bell ring, so those are two big hints about the true nature of it. Oh, another interesting tidbit that I picked up from Barnham during this part: Belduke's death is the only instance of witchcraft that wasn't foretold by the Story, which suggests that his murder by the witch was not planned. It also suggests that it's the only legitimate death in the game. Layton and Luke also discover that Belduke sent a letter to the Storyteller right before he died, but all the sheets of paper in the envelope are blank.

Meanwhile, the Storyteller probably does his most villainous thing in the game: He writes a story about witchcraft and DEATH right in front of Layton and Luke, and the story implies that the victim this time will be Phoenix. The game does a really good job swerving you on this into thinking that and then it turns out to be Layton instead, with Maya being framed as the witch. It's a great cliffhanger to end the chapter.

On the other hand, the whole turning Layton into gold thing is probably the hardest pill to swallow when it comes to how magic is supposedly carried out in Labyrinthia. In L-4, it's implied that they didn't make the statue beforehand (which would've made sense), and apparently everyone would've been knocked out at the sound of the silver bell. I don't understand how no one would've noticed they'd been KO'd the whole time, especially Luke and the other witnesses rushing in from outside. What about Phoenix down in the cellar? How would they have not noticed the passage of time? I dunno, "the witches KO people with the silver bells until they can finish setting up the magic" is probably the dumbest explanation in the game. It's hard to suspend your disbelief on that one, especially in this instance.
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