Board 8 > Ace Attorney Discussion Topic, Part 6 - This Reminds Me of a Crossover Edition

(+) Yeah! (+)

LeonhartFour posted...

On the other hand, the whole turning Layton into gold thing is probably the hardest pill to swallow when it comes to how magic is supposedly carried out in Labyrinthia. In L-4, it's implied that they didn't make the statue beforehand (which would've made sense), and apparently everyone would've been knocked out at the sound of the silver bell. I don't understand how no one would've noticed they'd been KO'd the whole time, especially Luke and the other witnesses rushing in from outside. What about Phoenix down in the cellar? How would they have not noticed the passage of time? I dunno, "the witches KO people with the silver bells until they can finish setting up the magic" is probably the dumbest explanation in the game. It's hard to suspend your disbelief on that one, especially in this instance.

Welcome to Professor Layton games, where "magic is just real, ok?" is a much easier-to-swallow explanation than the actual crazy shit that's going on.

A thing I like about LvW from an AA perspective is that it's the only game where magic is real, so you can have stuff that would never work in real life, like disappearing spells and shit. I think it would have been better if they just completely handwaved it and never gave any explanation for how magic is real in Labyrinthia, but that is just not how Professor Layton games roll, believe me. This is not the only example of this in the series.

I've beaten Curious Village, so I understand this is fairly typical Layton fare. The truth is more absurd than the facade. I think I'll pick Diabolical Box back up once I finish this playthrough.

I do like how Phoenix has to approach trials differently in Layton/AA, like assuming magic is real. The rules are different in Labyrinthia and he learns to adjust to them pretty well by the end.
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Started the L-3 trial proper. I like the intro here, with Espella requesting Phoenix to allow her to help him during the trial. It's touching how much she wants to help them out because of how much they've helped her. It's an endearing trait of hers, I think. I also noticed Jean had a different jewel on her brooch right away here, and I figured it would be significant in some way during the trial.

I also like the Judge acknowledging Phoenix's skill and officially recognizing him as someone on par with Barnham himself. Barnham is rather strict toward both Espella and Maya here. He tells Espella not to worry so much about other people considering her own situation, and he threatens to punish Maya on two separate occasions for speaking out of turn. He's definitely in more of a "serious business" mode here.

L-3 has a pretty great lineup of witnesses, starting with the new and improved Emeer Punchenbaug I. When you thought he couldn't top his first appearance, he does. Ms. Primstone is kinda mean, but I do like her "[insert thing here] leads to nothing but trouble" running gag. Birdly's singing gimmick is kind of fun at first, although hearing the same four or five notes over and over again gets old fast. The parrot's the star of the show in that duo, but more on him later. Finally, having Luke be a witness here is an excellent touch. Gives the trial an even more personal and tense feel to it. He's also not afraid to go after the other witnesses if they try to besmirch Layton at all. He's a bit of a wild card in this case.
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Couple of things I noticed about LvW at this point:

- I think this is the only AA game where, when you get a "point out the spot on the map/the picture" prompt, you can get multiple wrong responses. For instance, when you have to point to the part of the staff that's "fake", make sure to present the goldor gem for a great response. You also get a different response (and don't take a penalty) if you present the milk bucket in L-2 when you're asked to show something in the court sketch.

- This is also the only AA game where saving doesn't actually put you at the exact spot you were at, which is annoying. At least you can reload in this game without hard resetting, which is nice, but going through wrong responses in this game is really, really annoying because you have to re-read a ton of text. (This is also true for reading all the HANG ON! text)

Paratroopa1 posted...

- I think this is the only AA game where, when you get a "point out the spot on the map/the picture" prompt, you can get multiple wrong responses. For instance, when you have to point to the part of the staff that's "fake", make sure to present the goldor gem for a great response. You also get a different response (and don't take a penalty) if you present the milk bucket in L-2 when you're asked to show something in the court sketch.

I'm pretty sure this happens in some of the other games, though I'm not sure where. 1-5 maybe?
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There's one in 6-4 where you can point out the table was moved which is not the answer they are looking for but isn't a penalty either.
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There's also the picture of the Nickel Samurai in 2-4 where you get a unique response for pointing out his face instead of his feet, iirc (that one is a penalty though)
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Yeah, there are several cases where pointing to a certain thing that isn't correct will get you optional dialogue (and sometimes not even a penalty). I did the milk bucket one in L-2 this time around, too.
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I just couldn't remember any instances of it happening in a game other than LvW, but then I saw two examples of it in LvW

By the way I can't remember what the milk bucket thing was, but I remember thinking I don't really understand why that wasn't a good enough answer

You were trying to point out why Espella couldn't have been holding the witch's scepter in her hand, and the answer was supposed to be that she couldn't have dropped the lantern if she were holding it in that hand. The milk bucket thing becomes a good answer once you learn what it actually looks like.
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Also, weird little thing about this game is that it takes forever until Phoenix solves a puzzle. They let Maya tackle several, including a few teamed up with Luke, before Phoenix gets one for himself.
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One thing that kind of annoys me is that Layton is shown to basically be an expert at what Phoenix does, and more likely than not could have handled the trials on his own, but they show Phoenix to be like not a genius with puzzles, like "wow you did it Phoenix, you solved the puzzle, good job!" Layton taking over parts of L-2 and running the show bothers me less knowing that he becomes the victim in L-3 and gets removed from the picture there (a brilliant move to put the spotlight on Phoenix - L-3 is SO well-thought out), so it's cool to see Layton get a few "Objections!" in, but still, it kind of makes Layton look like a mary sue. Which... he kind of is. But it would have been cool for there to have been a moment that shows why Layton CAN'T do what Phoenix does. Layton is like almost omnisciently smart so it would be hard, but I'm sure they could have made a point of it somewhere showing that Phoenix is truly the lone master of what he does.

Yeah, taking Layton out of the picture for L-3 and most of L-4 was a smart move because honestly the guy is a little too perfect sometimes and might steal the spotlight from Phoenix. I feel like he mostly stayed in his lane in L-2 though. He didn't interject or try to take over very much there.

Layton is good at giving Phoenix credit where he deserves it, but yeah, he never really gets "stumped" by stuff.
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L-4:

Judge: When you used magic against your father... were you doing so as Espella Cantabella, or as the Great Witch Bezella?

Darklaw: A most fascinating query. However... it matters not!

Judge: The inquisition has ingeniously solved the query by disregarding it.

this is like one of my favorite judge lines

Oh right, I forgot to mention before that Maya refers to herself as a spirit medium before the trial begins, so I guess they don't completely ignore it! Still working my way through the trial. The contradiction with the upright golden arm is pretty fun, since it centers around Emeer being Emeer and selling it to the pawnbroker, which explains why he's suddenly become so opulent. Phoenix using that to prove Maya couldn't have dropped the scepter in that direction is pretty clever, although Labyrinthia strikes again! Barnham says that witchcraft muddles and confuses people, so it's possible that they're simply misremembering the order of events. Sure enough, all their testimonies completely change, and there's nothing Phoenix can do to stop this convenient turn of events! Khura'in might be more dangerous for Phoenix, but the odds are definitely more stacked against him in Labyrinthia because of stuff like this. There's no argument against that stuff because everyone just simply accepts it as fact.
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I actually like the Labyrinthian take on that stuff more I think. The mob stuff and the unfairness with which Phoenix's logic is treated comes across better somehow, yet Phoenix himself is treated with more respect - there's a little bit of "burn the defender!" at the start of L-2 but later on that stuff kind of goes away.

I think someone goes "Bake the baker!" at the beginning of L-3, but yeah, Phoenix ends up being more respected and is seen on even footing with the Inquisitors by this point. Labyrinthia hates witches, not lawyers, and they just want to see them burn. It's just mob justice, and they can all talk themselves into believing just about anything given enough time. It does make more sense in Labyrinthia because of the "medieval" setting, so they approach things from a completely different mindset and point of view than we would. I always like it in L-2 when Phoenix suggests checking the scepter for fingerprints and everyone else is utterly confused.
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Finally got around to watching dowolf's translation of DGS case 1, since I remembered that he posted the scripts for other cases and I can combine those with watching an untranslated playthrough going forward. (It took me a while to find them again, though, since I forgot at first that they were posted near the end of the character/case ranking topics instead of in the general discussion topics.) Assorted thoughts:

%u2013 The names are good all around; only slight criticism I have is that "Orato" doesn't really sound like a girl's name to me.
%u2013 The case was pretty complicated for a tutorial, what with the many witnesses and changing murder method and whatnot, but the actual logic used was still straightforward enough. I did fall into the same trap as the voting in assuming the poison was in the wine glass instead of the bottle, though, and it was annoying how the coin being under the beefsteak wasn't sufficient enough evidence on its own to show that the plates were switched.
%u2013 Cross-examining multiple witnesses at once was a LvW thing first, right? It's simpler than I was expecting.
%u2013 Jezail's character design so good. It reminds me a lot of Haru's thief outfit from P5, but that's prob a case of them being based off a common archetype (I don't remember the actual reference though). It is disappointing to not learn her motive, but maybe that'll come back later as part of the larger metaplot of the game?
%u2013 Speaking of design, I like the sort of muted/earthy tones look going on with the visuals overall; it's easier on the eyes than AA5/6's BRIGHT CLASHING MAXIMUM SATURATION COLORS EVERYWHERE. I remember seeing a tumblr post or something about this that explained it much better than I could, but idk if I could find it again.

(spoilers for a later case prob) I don't regret being spoiled that Kurido/Kazuma dies as much now that it seems pretty predictable. He's clearly the Mia of this game! Death flags! (Also curious to find out what "Waketa" means since the name pastebin said it "would have become clear with time"%u2014I can only read it as "walk it off", but that doesn't seem quite right.)

I might post comments on the other cases here as I finish them, but I don't think I'll bother with a full playthrough (watchthrough?) topic like I did for the other games.

(tfw you edit to fix a minor typo and end up breaking all your n- and m-dashes in the process...)
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DGS1-1 The multi-witness thing did start with Layton/AA, yeah. It's pretty simple in DGS because it's not the main gimmick like it is in Layton/AA, where they push it to the limit in absurdity at one point.

I actually might watch through the game again now that I've finished all the Sherlock Holmes stories and I'll be able to catch and appreciate the references better now.
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(mid-late DGS case 2) "CONCLUSION: Tripped on cat and fell."
what a sad way to go

of course, that can't be the full story, since there's still a bit over an hour left to go in the video, plus there hasn't even been a court segment yet...! there's not really an "obvious culprit" character though so idk

also can I just say it's hilarious how there's an entire central game mechanic based around telling Holmes that he's wrong and fixing his "deductions". even the game isn't taking this guy seriously
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DGS1-2 Holmes's deductions are taken straight from mysteries in the books a lot of the time, so it's just making a fun nod toward the stories. Those segments look like a lot of fun though, so I'm sad we'll never get to play them for ourselves!
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Starting to wonder if I should just watch DGS and not wait for a romhack

Oh my..

Was this posted here?
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I posted it a while back. Still worth posting again.
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bringing AA3 into the world of 6-6 i see
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L-4:

"(Good job, Maya! But...how? Hmm... Dzibilchaltun...sounds kind of..."Mayan"?)"

I really wonder what this line was in Japanese.

Finished L-3 but my internet is out so I can't do a detailed writeup at the moment.

But yep, definitely a top 10 quality case.
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I've tried to make a detailed post a few times and mobile keeps crashing on me so forget it.
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Wrote long spiel about L-3 on my laptop. Will post when I can.
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When I originally played LvW, I think I was disappointed by how light L-1 and L-2 were in terms of the Ace Attorney elements - the witnesses felt one-note and the murder felt all too simple - and L-3 was the first case where I really felt like I was in an actual AA game, and I felt swept up in it, but I still always felt like it was a lightweight compared to cases from what I thought were better games.

Now, L-1 and L-2 have risen in my ranks now that I more appreciate the style, presentation, and polish, and L-3 has suddenly gone from "this feels like an AA case" to "this is actually one of the BEST AA cases".

First, let's start with the statistics. Eight total testimonies: Three from Emeer/Primstone/Birdly/Luke, one from Cracker the parrot (with the Layton theme overriding the normal cross-examination music, which was very cool), one with just Greyerl (which is one of the only single character testimonies in Labyrinthia) where Emeer and Birdly bust in halfway through, one with those three where Lettie also busts in halfway through, and then two more with all four together. Confused? Me too. The final piece of evidence is the letter because it proves Phoenix's theory that Belduke committed suicide. There's a clear difference between how Takumi approaches cross-examinations and how Eshiro and Yamazaki approach them, and I'm not just talking about the amount or the length. Takumi often likes to make navigating testimonies rather intricate and roundabout (and that's on full display in L-3), while Eshiro and Yamazaki keep them rather simple and straightforward but still giving you lots of content. L-3 is still a lot of fun though, and I feel like this is probably the case that uses the multi-witness testimony gimmick the best, partly because the characters work so well together. Luke's a great witness here because he's a loose cannon and doesn't think like all the other witnesses, and he's not afraid to take shots at them if they say something he doesn't like. He's also the one who comes up with the idea to cross-examine the parrot (I love how pleased he looks with himself during that entire testimony with Cracker perched on his head).

Barnham's reaction to the idea of cross-examining the parrot is excellent, too. When Phoenix proposes that "Mr. Cracker" isn't human and therefore can't lie or be deceived by witchcraft, he shoots back with, "The parrot is just a pet animal and addressing him as 'Mr.' doesn't change that!" When Phoenix tries to pull a Franziska von Karma by calling him by his full name, he replies with, "Calling me by my full name doesn't make your suggestion any less absurd!" Barnham's really good in this case because he comes across as reasonable most of the time...until it's time to put the witch to death, and even as Phoenix and company plead for Greyerl's life, saying she shouldn't be burned because she never killed anyone, he is undeterred from performing his duty. It's kind of a shame he completely disappears for L-4 because I like him as an opponent. I also love his drawn out forearm slam animation, especially when he uses it to kill the music.

I like the scene during the recess where Luke tries to apologize to Maya, who in typical "more mature than you think" fashion, manages to divert attention away from her circumstances and cheers up Luke. He says he should've trusted her all along, and she says that he trusts her now, which is all that matters. Then she quickly changes the subject by commending him for coming up with the idea to cross-examine the parrot and asks him to teach her to talk to animals. Maya's really good at this move, actually. She uses it on Pearl to great effect in the OT as well. I guess she's really good with kids! Now Luke joins Phoenix and Espella at the defense's bench for the rest of the trial.
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I said this before, but I really like Greyerl as a character. I mentioned before that her thinking animation is excellent, but her shocked animation is honestly downright adorable because she gets these wide shining eyes. She's also a great opponent. Very likable but also hard to break. She reminds me of Adrian Andrews a little bit, too, and not just because of the androgynous name. They're both not as emotionally strong as they like to appear, and the best way to beat them is to hit them with something unexpected when they're not ready for it. Greyerl holds her ground well when Phoenix is talking to her, but he can catch her off guard easily and get her to slip up if he jumps over to her in the middle of someone else's testimony. She reminds me a little of Acro, too, in terms of her circumstances, in that she kills (or so she thinks) the person she respects most, and one of the key parts of the endgame is establishing her motive.

Some Guy comes back with a vengeance in the second half of the trial. I completely forgot about him paying off Birdly to be his private bard. I take back everything I said about Birdly not being very good, because this gimmick is amazing. He technically does his job of singing Emeer's "praises," but there's an undercurrent of backhanded compliments littered throughout the songs. So good. Emeer causes more trouble in this case than Larry Butz ever has in any one single case. He stole the golden arm and the bottle of poison, and he drank the tomato juice laced with the sleeping drug, too, so he single-handedly throws the entire investigation way off the scent. I also love how everyone, even Barnham and the Judge, feel completely comfortable taking potshots at him even though he's standing right there. Part of what makes L-3 such a good case is that it probably has four of the five best original characters in it. It's missing Darklaw, but it's got Some Guy, Barnham, Greyerl, and...

Yes, Lettie Mailer. I think she's awesome. I even like her super high pitched SIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIR running gag! I enjoy her stilted manner of speaking, too. It's just enjoyable to read her dialogue, and she's got some fun animations. Greyerl and Lettie together on the stand is outstanding, too, because they play off of each other so well, especially during the last testimony where they argue that Greyerl couldn't have possibly killed Belduke because of how much she loves and respects him. I liked Lettie's backstory of how Belduke turned her away from a life of petty thievery and crime and helped her become a courier. She has a line during this part that I really appreciate and enjoy. "Then I learned it's not a bad feeling. Being useful, I mean. To other people." It's just a well written line because it's a unique and understated heartwarming moment. It definitely sold me on Lettie as a character.
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Of course, the big heartwarming (and simultaneously heartrending) moment is learning the truth of Belduke's suicide. I naturally assume murder for every AA case, so when the solution turns out to be something completely different, it really stands out to me. Belduke's theme is really poignant and fits the atmosphere of the moment perfectly. This is another instance of voice acting enhancing the moment, too, because hearing Greyerl read the letter really drives home how bittersweet it is. You can hear the heartbreak in her voice. I really appreciate the fact that Phoenix asked her to be the one to read the letter aloud when she tried to get the judge to read it instead. L-3 is actually a top tier Phoenix performance in my book. It hits all the classic Nick notes: A personal investment in the outcome, an unwavering determination in the face of ridiculous odds, gradually winning everybody over because of it, and the instinctive sense that the turnabout isn't complete even though he's about to "win." He pushes for the trial to continue because the circumstances around Belduke's supposed murder don't feel right, even though Maya has been proven innocent. Phoenix also does virtually no bluffing here. He outwits Barnham and Greyerl fair and square (on his end anyway. It's even more impressive considering the deck is stacked against him).

The bittersweet feeling continues even after Greyerl's confession because she still has to be condemned and burned as a witch even though she never actually killed anyone. They do a really good job of conveying how conflicted the Judge feels about having to do his job because his head is down and his eyes are obscured by his hood the entire time as he sentences her to death. Then Espella tries to take Greyerl's place, and then Maya tries to save Espella, only to get caught in the cage as it goes into the flames. Of course, you know there's no way Maya is dead and that's your biggest clue that all of these deaths are not what they appear to be (and Layton getting turned to gold, too, I guess), but it's still a really well executed moment. They sell the emotional reactions of all the characters, especially Phoenix. It's a great cap to this case.

Oh right, I can't forget to mention the awesome moment where Espella and Luke duck behind the bench and help to turn the Layton statue to point in unison with Phoenix for the final contradiction. So good.

Chapter 3 playtime: 3:07:21
Chapter 4 playtime: 4:08:41
L-3 investigation playtime: 3:07:21
L-3 trial playtime: 4:08:41
L-3 total playtime: 7:16:02

6-5 - 14:03:49
E2-5 - 9:36:06
3-5 - 9:35:46
2-4 - 9:05:21
1-5 - 8:46:43
E1-5 - 8:42:23
6-3 - 8:13:50
E2-3 - 8:09:06
E2-2 - 7:29:23
5-6 - 7:21:19
5-2 - 7:13:40
5-3 - 6:50:24
4-4 - 6:38:01
5-5 - 6:16:05
6-6 - 6:04:07
3-2 - 6:02:56
E2-4 - 6:01:14
6-2 - 5:58:46
4-3 - 5:58:33
3-3 - 5:48:31
2-3 - 5:06:33
1-4 - 4:59:52
4-2 - 4:58:35
E1-4 - 4:58:26
2-2 - 4:47:40
5-4 - 4:27:31
L-3 - 4:08:41
E1-3 - 4:02:16
1-3 - 3:49:35
E2-1 - 3:36:32
6-4 - 3:21:23
L-2 - 3:16:00
E1-2 - 3:15:49
6-1 - 2:59:52
1-2 - 2:40:40
5-1 - 2:19:33
4-1 - 2:11:44
3-4 - 1:54:15
E1-1 - 1:44:51
3-1 - 1:43:09
L-1 - 1:39:12
2-1 - 1:15:57
4-0 - 1:09:44
1-1 - 0:33:35
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That moment in L-3 where Emeer reveals that the tomato juice with the sleeping drug in it was never opened sends chills down my spine every time. When I first played the case, the implication that this must have meant he was already dead hit me just a few seconds after reading it, and it was like, whoa. Seriously an all-time AA twist. My favorite twists in AA are the ones where you feel like you've just been given the entire story, but then it turns out there was something you didn't know after all, and that was a great example - Jean's murder confession sounded like all there was to know, which makes Emeer's revelation great.

Really, L-3 is just fantastic all around. The whole thing is fun, but also emotionally resonant. There's tons of funny writing here, Barnham is a great opponent (he probably rises to the top half of my prosecutor rankings honestly), Greyerl is a great opponent too, the whole Labyrinthia concept reaches its peak in this case, everything just really clicks here.

I also really like how naturally they managed to shake up the characters here. The twist at the beginning where Layton is the victim is genius - it both takes Layton out of the picture AND puts Luke on the witness stand and angry at Phoenix/Maya without either of those things feeling forced at all.

Started Chapter 5 and beat that chalice puzzle in like a minute. Felt like a monumental achievement! More Chalices still awaits though! Phoenix is finally starting to get his own puzzles, too!

Speaking of Phoenix, he's really good in the immediate aftermath of this trial. You very rarely see legitimately angry Phoenix in the series, but he gets in Barnham's face and really lets him have it. And to Barnham's credit, he just takes it. Afterward, he almost sort of shuts himself down emotionally for a bit because he knows he has to keep it together for the sake of Espella and Luke.

I like that they mix up the pairings here, too. You've got Phoenix and Luke here, with Layton and Maya later.
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I think Phoenix dealing with Maya's death is really awkward just because like... we know it didn't really happen and this is all non-canon anyway, and it just kind of feels like too much. But like, eh.

I do love that it splits up the pairings though. I especially like Layton and Maya together, though we don't see them together as long as Phoenix and Luke.

Yeah, you know it's all not real, but it's a side of him you rarely see, so I enjoy it. Also, I always suspected Barnham and Rouge were siblings because of the hair color, but they never establish what their relationship actually is, so they're probably not.
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good god I forgot how overly long L-4 is

Yeah, like I said before, the total sum of the investigation and the trial is probably close to half the game. It's kinda ridiculous.
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It's kind of a bucket of cold water after L-3 - they spend the most time on this part of the game but it's probably the worst part! The Layton segments are pretty cool because we get Phoenix/Luke and Layton/Maya stuff and that's fun, but man, the trial is just not that intriguing. The pacing for me really grinds to a halt at that part, which is weird because normally these games do not lose their pacing at the endgame.

Darn you, More Chalices! I am well beaten.

It's also a shame that the music box version of Turnabout Sisters only plays in that one scene.
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I was caught off guard by the Turnabout Sisters theme playing since I don't remember it and very little AA music is used after L-1, aside from the objection theme (the best version of it, imo).

Speaking of music, LvW's soundtrack is really top notch in general, something I've noticed more on replay than I did before. One track that I've been really drawn to in particular though is The Courtroom's Magician -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUWO7jik2R0

One thing about it bugs me though - I can't figure out if it's supposed to be a counterpart to a normal AA theme. Like it's kind of an 'announce the truth' theme in a way but there's already an actual 'announce the truth' theme in LvW. The closest comparison I can think of is the way that AA3 often uses Investigation Core 2002 for a lot of its dramatic moments in trial in a way that also doesn't really have a counterpart in any other game.

Great write-ups on L-3. I always saw it as a top tier case. It's enjoyable the entire way through and really sold me on PLvPW. Too bad L-4 does nothing with it...! L-4 investigation is pretty dang good, though.

PLvPW's OST is really solid. Courtroom's Magician struck me too. Maybe the suspense theme?
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LvW has its own suspense theme too! I guess this is like, the 'secondary' suspense theme?

I'm hosting a mafia game of AA and I'm enjoying it so much it's making me want to play this series again.

But I played it less than one year ago!

What do I do?

I surrended to the temptation and started replaying AA1. Let's see if this lasts.

Man, I love the soundtrack of this game. It feels like it's the most pure one in the series.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I was caught off guard by the Turnabout Sisters theme playing since I don't remember it and very little AA music is used after L-1, aside from the objection theme (the best version of it, imo).

Yeah, the Objection theme here is fantastic. I've often said that AAI1 has the best OST in the series, but I'm starting to reconsider that position.
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DGS case 3 finished, and uh, wow. My mind is blown.

So, a defendant forging evidence, (probably) being the true culprit, and getting away with murder? We may have had these things before in the series, but certainly not all at the same time! And there's a good chance he's the one that burned up inside the omnibus at the end too, so...
Also, we've now gone 3 cases without one that has both an investigation and a trial (unless you count the brief scene of talking to Vortex at the beginning). Breaking all kinds of series conventions here!
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