Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Diablo and Vanille vs. Dark Samus

(+) Yeah! (+)

FFDragon posted...

nope.jpg

Arguably Damus has regeneration regardless of Phazon absorbtion, but I suppose that goes against the spirit of the character upgrade.

Regardless, uh... With Vanille dead Diablo doesn't have many avenues of attack to be honest. It's pretty one-sided here.

vanille

Does Diablo have any way to see any of the Damus clones if they turn invisible?
---

KamikazePotato posted...

This is really RPG-y. You would have to start applying similar gear silliness to other characters, which no one ever does. Like I'm fine with saying that Diablo is tanky but I don't agree with the logic used to get to that point.

Yes and no. RPG mechanics are kinda a lot less pronounced than Diablo. Mostly because

Early game diablo, random arrows and stuff actually hurt a lot, unlike in say FFVII where shinra goon plinks you for 8 with a machine gun.
Diablo characters are HEAVY on regen, much higher than bog standard RPG guys.

I mean yeah there are some mechanics there but if you're gonna say "they can get hurt by normal bow and arrow" and you're basing it on game mechanics, as Chris said you use those same game mechanics to expose it as a dumb dehype measure.
---

I mean he can sense fear and peoples souls, so I'd assume so?
---

Anyway yeah, honestly, the more I think about it

Diablo I think takes this.

Yes Vanille isn't going to be relevant for all that long, but she can be pretty damn effective for the short amount of time while she's around. Give her a mere one turn alive and she can slap Imperil + Deshell on Dark Samus and Faithra on Diablo and I think he's got a fairly sizable life lead once those buffs/debuffs run out (this isn't metagaming-- Diablo's best attacks are magic so going with a magical based offensive would be a standard move).

And in a 1v1, Diablo just has a lot more self heal options to use. Between his natural regeneration and HotS moves vs Dark Samus's lack of any form of self heal, he should be prime to win here.
---

OK, just confirmed via watching some LPs. In Metroid Prime 2, Proto Dark Samus takes some 60 missiles or so to kill assuming you get full direct hits (and similarly around 10-15 Super Missiles). So it's not 200 like I thought but still a very significant amount. In MP3, Dark Samus just plain no-sells everything until you fight her using Phazon. So would say that she generally isn't gonna be very easy to kill - magic helps, but the best of Diablo's magic is telegraphed.

Also @Lopen since you asked about clone durability:

https://youtu.be/cYgDiIT4yQs?t=216

This is how beefy they are - takes a few impacts to kill one, or several seconds of concentrated blaster fire.
---

Dark Samus

Absolutely disgusting mismatch. Samus takes damage from red phazon in a suit SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to combat taking damage from phazon just from proximity. It's stated that living matter can't even get close enough to the stuff without being IMMEDIATELY irradiated. Vanille is dead on arrival because this is among the dumbest terrains in the game. It's like being in a nuclear reactor without a HAZMAD suit, only the radiation is also alive and hates you and superevolved in space.

From there it's 'a big target that is constantly losing health because phazon literally seeks out life to CORRUPT and kill it' versus Dark Samus, who actively tanks Samus's arsenal for quite some time, is literally a possessed suit of Samus's armor swallowed by phazon (specifically the Phazon Suit, which is endgame Metroid armor, so you ain't gonna get through that without concentrated effort), is significantly faster than her target, can freeze her target in place, can clone herself, and can turn invisible.

Dark Samus is gross. This terrain makes her significantly MORE disgusting, as all she has to do is essentially let the dps race of 'enemy vs the environment' run itself out.
---

Diablo
---

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Like Wang is the one who was talking about game mechanics terms, not me.

Not quite.
The argument was that the characters are way more durable than anything in Metroid.

The problem is the main ranged weapons in that universe are literally bows. Meanwhile Metroid is so ridiculously beyond that level of tech that it's silly to say that.
---

Lopen I would give Vanille much more cred here if the terrain wasn't hampering her combined with not actually being able to see Damus to cast those buff. There's too much going against Vanille for her to be able to have that much of an impact.

I also don't think you're taking into account Diablo vs phazon in the terrain when the 1v1 happens.

Any other terrain and Damus is in some trouble by herself (although she has clone friends!!), but in the impact crater it's a different story
---

In other words Wang's argument is that whatever magic enhancements/boosts from demonic or angelic essence imbuing the arrows are have to be absolutely gigantic to be relevant in comparison to Metroid. Which is a reasonable argument, all told, and it's totally possible that they are that good.
---

Calling the main ranged weapons of Diablo "bows" is akin to calling the main ranged weapons of Metroid "muskets" in terms of disrespect.
---

The problem is we have no real comparison between the two universes for how well Damus's weapons compare to end game stuff in Diablo 3, like clearly it's waaay better than a regular bow, but as has been the playable characters laugh off that shit, nevermind Diablo... and end game gear is like runic heaven forged shit and stuff.

Chris can probably explain way better, but it's far from just "a bow and arrow"
---

I'll take a better look at the terrain and read up on phazon a bit more to try and determine how justified Kamek's frothing at the mouth over phazon is.

I think Vanille fares better against radiation type stuff than you'd think given her petite appearance given her magical gear but if she is actually likely to be killed by the stage the match becomes a lot more up in the air.
---

Yes, the enhancements need to effectively turn Diablo characters into StarCraft ones, if you want to stick with Blizzard. Because Samus fits in that universe, Dark Samus more so. And there's nothing to show them anything remotely like that.
---

I mean, wouldn't Ribbon the god tier haha lulz status effects help Vanille out against the Phazon anyway?
---

Lopen posted...

I'll take a better look at the terrain and read up on phazon a bit more to try and determine how justified Kamek's frothing at the mouth over phazon is.

I think Vanille fares better against radiation type stuff than you'd think given her petite appearance given her magical gear but if she is actually likely to be killed by the stage the match becomes a lot more up in the air.

Well my main point there was it's a combination of the phazon + Damus getting to stealth into battle to have the first hit on Vanille before Vanille can react and debuff. Not just the phazon. There's also a chance that any debuffs Vanille casts that actually hit non-stealth Damus might be a clone instead. There's just so much going against Vanille here.
---

Yeah I rate Vanille far more as a buffer during this than any type of threat to Damus.
---

Kinglicious posted...

Yes, the enhancements need to effectively turn Diablo characters into StarCraft ones, if you want to stick with Blizzard. Because Samus fits in that universe, Dark Samus more so. And there's nothing to show them anything remotely like that.

As the resident starcraft guru I seriously totally agree about this comparison, especially 'Dark Samus fits into Starcraft's power level moreso'. Like for reference...I think Samus vs a Viking (transforming mecha plane) piloted by a true ace is a match she wouldn't enjoy at all if she was on foot. I'd take Dark Samus over a Thor, which is a mech that makes Metal Gear REX look small, and I'd do so cleanly. And my Starcraft respect is massive.
---

so technology>magic?
---

Kinglicious posted...

Yes, the enhancements need to effectively turn Diablo characters into StarCraft ones, if you want to stick with Blizzard

Frankly I don't think this is too far off from Blizzard's own interpretations of the power levels. I mean most of the HotS promos end up boiling down to Starcraft vs Diablo-- which, yes, it's a Smash Bros type game but yeah. There's a lot of weird stuff in Diablo that makes you scratch your head. I mean the Demon Hunter's moveset is practically using machine guns, grenades, and rocket launchers with the flavor of the attacks despite being armed with "a bow."

Basically just one's really far on the magic/supernatural spectrum and one's far on the science/tech spectrum, but I've never got a feel that Diablo was particularly "smaller scale" than Starcraft.
---

i uh thought this vanille didn't have access to synergist

gotta go diablo here

though this topic did make me gain respect for Dark Samus, so there's an achievement there at least
---

Oh she doesn't have synergist. Faithra off the table. Not sure that matters a ton since she can still use Imperilga + Deshellga for similarish damage adds I think, since there's only one foe there's not a ton of difference.
---

MenuWars posted...

so technology>magic?

Not really tech>magic. It's more like plentiful showings>lack of showings. The diabloverse forces lots of educated and blind guesses as to just how much the magic powering the characters boosts them - the closest thing to a solid benchmark we have is 'it takes more than a starcraft assault rifle but less than a nuclear weapon to make diablo job', from the Heroes of the Storm crossover cutscene...but only if you take that seriously. Meanwhile we know that Metroid enemies constantly no-sell dozens of missiles blasts (which are generally considerably better in terms of dealing damage than even a mach 5 foot long spike fired from a rifle), that Phazon is super deadly and also that Phazon lifeforms are highly resilient, and Dark Samus is her universe's apex predator once you remove what was basically deus ex machina hax from Samus' toolset. The Metroidverse is better documented, so there's less 'no trust me guys this is good' going on with it - it shows us exactly how good a lot of its stuff is instead of telling us it's awesome.
---

HeroicGammaRay posted...

i uh thought this vanille didn't have access to synergist

Currently she does not
---

I think the biggest thing that makes me put Diablo and Starcraft on fairly similar power levels without thinking too much about it is the Zerg. I don't really notch the Zerg as particularly more impressive looking than the forces of hell. To me that's like, the easiest way to map the magic vs technology spread, compare the big bad looking zerg which are competitive with the starcraft level tech to the nastiest hell creatures, and yeah they're not really all that different imo.
---

MenuWars posted...

so technology>magic?

Usually yeah. Like the extreme end of magic tends to get more into reality warping or with actual, tangible things being done that are absurd.

But sci-fi is often placed at a much higher level over fantasy. Most fantasy will cap out at "saving the world," most sci-fi will have planets blowing up, being fully enslaved, etc. StarCraft included.
---

Lopen posted...

I think the biggest thing that makes me put Diablo and Starcraft on fairly similar power levels without thinking too much about it is the Zerg. I don't really notch the Zerg as particularly more impressive looking than the forces of hell. To me that's like, the easiest way to map the magic vs technology spread, compare the big bad looking zerg which are competitive with the starcraft level tech to the nastiest hell creatures, and yeah they're not really all that different imo.

The biggest Zerg are literally moon sized tho >_>

You know that Summon Leviathan move Kerrigan has one of her 'supermove' options in Heart of the Swarm? It calls one of those moon-sized Zerg down to wreck shit. The Nydus Worms are hundreds of meters long as well. An Ultralisk vs one of the siegebreaker beasts or whatever is interesting, but the Zerg go wayyyyy up from there without ever reaching into psionics.
---

That's cause "planets" are a sci fi flavored McGuffin.

Fantasy type worlds have their own interpretation of that they're called Planes.
---

The Zerg have plenty of documentation that makes them pretty fucking terrifying and ridiculously tanky with better feats. The demons don't​. And no way do they look less intimidating or even slightly more, gap is pretty damn big.
---

Anyway, this much Phazon is pretty bad news for Vanille, yes. That stuff is insanely toxic. I think Diablo will be okay (he wouldn't be if he stayed there for longer than the duration of this fight) but Vanille is going to get really weak really fast and die within minutes even if she wasn't hit at all.
---

Yeah and dimensions and shit...
---

They don't really have better feats, generally. They just have feats that are more palatable for you because you need weapon power infodumps measured in PSI or whatever
---

lol
---

To give examples of phazon for those not BTFO by it like me:

-Scan visor (in-game, non-Pokedex bullshit analysis of EVERYTHING in the game) describes the red phazon as "86% more radioactive" than regular phazon, which causes damage via close proximity in every Metroid Prime game pre-upgrades. It also specifically states that any "sub-P class organism would perish in moments" with contact.

-Hardened phazon, phazite, hardens into the toughest substance known in the Metroid Prime universe, to the point where Power Bombs (which can down a space station on their own with destructive force) are completely ineffective and the best answer is the Nova Beam, a high frequency light and energy beam specifically designed to pass through molecules. Its high density essentially makes concussive force useless. Damus is made of the stuff, but it proves that liquid phazon's molecular structure is actual bullshit.

-Phazon spreads toward living life forms, as seen when a Metroid is placed in captivity with phazon and the phazon grows out toward it. The Metroid, by the by, seems to be one of the very, VERY few lifeforms capable of tanking phazon, and they STILL mutate. And these are "toughest motherfuckers in the galaxy we need to send Samus to exterminate an entire planet full of these guys or we won't be able to kill them ever" Metroids.

-I died a lot to it because I suck.
---

I feel like the average Starcraft unit is definitely more powerful than the average Diablo monster, but the top guys of Diablo can hang with the top guys of Starcraft.
---

KamikazePotato posted...

I feel like the average Starcraft unit is definitely more powerful than the average Diablo monster, but the top guys of Diablo can hang with the top guys of Starcraft.

I agree with this but that's largely because the bottom feeders in Diablo are like yetis and zombies and quill rats and shit.
---

Lopen posted...

They don't really have better feats, generally. They just have feats that are more palatable for you because you need weapon power infodumps measured in PSI or whatever

idk if this is true. Like...probably the best example I can find is that in lore, the Roaches (you know, mid-level Zerg units and stuff?) can hock their acid from a quarter of a kilometer away, and melt a communications array building with it. Like to me that's super impressive just because the scale (decent sized fractions of a kilometer, melting through steel) is really nice and most fantasy worlds don't replicate it. The onus is on the fantasy world to prove that it IS that hardcore, at least in places. Like uhh...something like David Eddings' The Belgariad/The Malloreon has sorcerers that are like really hardcore, enough that one of them accidentally almost causes an ice age, and unleashing his powers turns the sky of a decent-sized chunk of a supercontinent blue. Or like, you got the Malazan series, where the fightmen are Sephiroth level (for example Anomander Rake) and the mages are just as stupid too. Or Magic with Urza being, well, Urza. Fantasy can be really impressive, the Diablo mobs mostly aren't. It's the various Nephalem that look super good, and the Prime Evils + angels.
---

Diablo got kidnapped by Sam Fisher, how tough can he be really?

But more seriously, the terrain clinches this for Dark Samus. Phazon is seriously bad news. Red phazon is on another level. And Diablo is going to be knocked directly into it at some point in this fight. Considering how fast that stuff drops Samus while she's specifically shielded against it, and given it's going to be even more effective against flesh than metal, Diablo's tankiness is only going to get him so far. To say nothing of Dark Samus' own arsenal.
---

Damus

Any other terrain and Diablo and Vanille take this but the Phazon shields she can summon here pretty much tip it.
---

Also no one paid attention to the League of Legends' character stupid broken items with crazy abilities even when it was pointed out, so anyone arguing for DIablo characters based on gear had better be consistent!
---

Garen cannot be hurt by bows.
---

KamikazePotato posted...

Also no one paid attention to the League of Legends' character stupid broken items with crazy abilities even when it was pointed out, so anyone arguing for DIablo characters based on gear had better be consistent!

That's because the actives were banned unless you paid EXP for them, for dumb reasons. And like we only had one of the league characters (Syndra) really see battle and it was always in the context of 'Triple + Tracing LOL' or somesuch.
---

Lopen posted...

Garen cannot be hurt by bows.

Especially if he's in a bush
---

I've argued for end game Garen before, dude's fucking ludicrously tanky.
---

Dont get me started on force of will you fuckers
---

Garen was in a bunch of matches and I pointed out the passives on all his equipment every time (they're way better than his actives) and it was always ignored. Also pointed out how Draven's damage output with his axe would be ridiculous if it hit someone but that was ignored too. I ignored Syndra matches though so whatever to her.
---

KamikazePotato posted...

Garen was in a bunch of matches and I pointed out the passives on all his equipment every time (they're way better than his actives) and it was always ignored. Also pointed out how Draven's damage output with his axe would be ridiculous if it hit someone but that was ignored too. I ignored Syndra matches though so whatever to her.

Draven got ignored because he's a complete jabroni and like he isn't worth taking seriously by cutscene showings. Garen I think DID get respected for his passives, though.
---