Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Diablo and Vanille vs. Dark Samus

(+) Yeah! (+)

sci-fi almost by definition will always try to analyze and explain everything in a somewhat plausible way. that's literally the genre, science fiction. you can't do that without getting into the nitty gritty aspects and the type drawn to it shoot for wanting details, which promptly gives you better feats because details can make them millions of times more impressive.

fantasy doesn't need to do that and often doesn't even try to. "it works because magic now fuck off," "these are demons just kill them," etc. that greatly limits its ability to show or tell you anything. obviously there's exceptions to that but Diablo ain't one of 'em. Starcraft and Metroid meanwhile completely fit the sci-fi niche of giving you a ton of details which you can then use to find a ton of feats and attributes.

and i'd doubt that the top end of diablo measures up to even middle of the road starcraft.
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Eh I'm a part timer so I miss a lot of topics so I can only apologise for inconsistency there. Draven's a weird one though cus in game he's hard as balls cus balance but his feats are kinda meh. Whereas Syndra's lore and Sion's and stuff are all pretty mad.
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The big hangup I'm having is I see no real evidence that Phazon radiates all that much aside from it being called "radiatioactive." Like, nonono don't touch cause you will die, and it moves, from what I gather, slowly towards biological material, but would Vanille really die too easily if she didn't go near it? I'm not seeing clear evidence of that?
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MenuWars posted...

Eh I'm a part timer so I miss a lot of topics so I can only apologise for inconsistency there. Draven's a weird one though cus in game he's hard as balls cus balance but his feats are kinda meh. Whereas Syndra's lore and Sion's and stuff are all pretty mad.

Yeah like, to me Draven sucks because I'm a total league nutter who knows the lore well and his best 'feat' is getting fucking trolled by a smoke canister from Graves, literally his least valuable ability. By contrast if Graves himself was in Mercs I would give him shitloads of respect because his shotty actually made a dent in Nautilus in the same cutscene Draven gets owned in, and Naut looked like a hulking five meter tall force of nature there.
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Lopen posted...

The big hangup I'm having is I see no real evidence that Phazon radiates all that much aside from it being called "radiatioactive." Like, nonono don't touch cause you will die, and it moves, from what I gather, slowly towards biological material, but would Vanille really die too easily if she didn't go near it? I'm not seeing clear evidence of that?

The Red Phazon DOES slowly kill samus if she walks too close to it - i remember this from researching it when i owned Ridley.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

KamikazePotato posted...

Also no one paid attention to the League of Legends' character stupid broken items with crazy abilities even when it was pointed out, so anyone arguing for DIablo characters based on gear had better be consistent!

That's because the actives were banned unless you paid EXP for them, for dumb reasons. And like we only had one of the league characters (Syndra) really see battle and it was always in the context of 'Triple + Tracing LOL' or somesuch.

Ahem.

My girl Ashe saw plenty of battles.
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Garen, Draven, Ashe, Syndra all saw a good number of battles. It got really annoying try to explain to people that no, Garen isn't slow, he's literally got 3+ abilities/passives that boost his speed damnit!
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league event still worst event
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KamikazePotato posted...

Garen, Draven, Ashe, Syndra all saw a good number of battles. It got really annoying try to explain to people that no, Garen isn't slow, he's literally got 3+ abilities/passives that boost his speed damnit!

Cutscenes too strong man

When we've seen Garen in a live environment the dude's been anything but speedy. It kinda doesn't help that his best showing is vs Katarina who makes him look totally pokey, but still!
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Wanglicious posted...

because details can make them millions of times more impressive.

You think so, yes, that's what I'm saying. You like that random gun has some detail of its measurement, or some destroying some strong metal or big planet or whatever.

I always make fun of Chris for the stupid shouting down the gates of heaven thing... but I would take that feat as a fairly legitimate sign of his power given they've stood for millions of years and have successfully repelled the forces of hell, and your rank and file angels look pretty badass, even though I have no idea what the gates are made of, it doesn't matter. I'll still take it over "melting a communication array from 0.25km out" cause... it's a communications array. Who cares.

There's no real lore there aside from "it's made of a metal we acknowledge as hard" never mind that fantasy metals cut through our strongest stuff on the regular like nothing. I think you just lack a good perspective on fantasy type environments, really.
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Eddv posted...

Lopen posted...

The big hangup I'm having is I see no real evidence that Phazon radiates all that much aside from it being called "radiatioactive." Like, nonono don't touch cause you will die, and it moves, from what I gather, slowly towards biological material, but would Vanille really die too easily if she didn't go near it? I'm not seeing clear evidence of that?

The Red Phazon DOES slowly kill samus if she walks too close to it - i remember this from researching it when i owned Ridley.

To add to this, Samus is in a phazon suit that is designed to withstand phazon and red phazon still damages her.
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Eddv posted...

Lopen posted...

The big hangup I'm having is I see no real evidence that Phazon radiates all that much aside from it being called "radiatioactive." Like, nonono don't touch cause you will die, and it moves, from what I gather, slowly towards biological material, but would Vanille really die too easily if she didn't go near it? I'm not seeing clear evidence of that?

The Red Phazon DOES slowly kill samus if she walks too close to it - i remember this from researching it when i owned Ridley.

How close is too close though? Like, if Vanille respects the Phazon, as frankly, I don't see why she wouldn't, is she still getting eaten or not?
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Just to clarify, I'm not comparing a Roach to Diablo and saying 'omg Roach 6/week' - it's more that I'm comparing that Roach feat to like, what a random Act 3 Champion or Named monster that isn't an act or quest boss would do and thinking 'yeah, there's kind of a reason one of these makes a solid 3/week and the other isn't in mercs'. >_>
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I wouldn't take sci-fi numbers too seriously. Sci-fi is usually just fantasy with a fresh coat of paint on it. Writers for that genre tend to have no sense of perspective, measurement, or numbers whatsoever (just like fantasy writers!) and will throw out stuff that sounds cool. They're not completely useless but I would never take them in a hard-iron stance sort of way.
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Kamekguy posted...

Absolutely disgusting mismatch. Samus takes damage from red phazon in a suit SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to combat taking damage from phazon just from proximity. It's stated that living matter can't even get close enough to the stuff without being IMMEDIATELY irradiated. Vanille is dead on arrival because this is among the dumbest terrains in the game. It's like being in a nuclear reactor without a HAZMAD suit, only the radiation is also alive and hates you and superevolved in space.

Vault Dweller build with The Glow as a terrain when?

Anyway, yeah, this terrain is silly. It's way beyond blue phazon, which Samus can effortlessly wade through in her suit, and Dark Samus is just unharmed by either blue or red phazon (and fires either blue or ultra-pure phazon, I'm not sure which it's considered anymore actually). Dark Samus has terrain hax with Vanille more or less guaranteed death, and I'd already take her to beat Diablo, nevermind with him taking tons of unnecessary damage from terrain.
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Yeah it gets to a certain stage where you either have to tone down the feats to make sense of them within their own universe or vice versa, or you just relegate it all to whoever has the most explicitly written feat that hasn't been nerfed away from them. That's why I get bored of this stuff eventually, it mostly just comes down to whose got the most fanatical fanbase and on b8 that's alotta fanatical.
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KamikazePotato posted...

I wouldn't take sci-fi numbers too seriously. Sci-fi is usually just fantasy with a fresh coat of paint on it. Writers for that genre tend to have no sense of perspective, measurement, or numbers whatsoever (just like fantasy writers!) and will throw out stuff that sounds cool. They're not completely useless but I would never take them in a hard-iron stance sort of way.

When something is demonstrably wrong I agree (fun fact, did you know according to a single starcraft novel, Terran Marines can hit battlecruisers 10km up in the air? Cause I do and it's just as stupid and wrong compared to the rest of the verse as it sounds), but if many details start to jive, I feel like their consistency makes 'em believable. Like the Zerg Leviathan begin moon sized sounds dumb until you remember the Spear of Adun from Legacy of the Void is equally as large too - the existence of equally massive vehicles for the other factions makes it believable even if we have to say 'it's a very small moon, not like, THE moon' or something. By contrast I wouldn't give a random magic sword the respect to chop Master Chief to bits, because random-ass swords are not reinforced to be that hardcore - but I'd give the Soul Reaver that respect since it has multiple games worth of backing behind it.
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I mean Diablo wades through Hellfire, literal Hellfire, I take that stuff as being way more impressive than Phazon.
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Wanglicious posted...

sci-fi almost by definition will always try to analyze and explain everything in a somewhat plausible way

Reverse the polarity of the hyperspace thrusters and aim the tachyon beam at their dark matter discombulator to disable their warp drive!

Science fiction is just fantasy in another setting, and it isn't necessarily more consistent with its technology than fantasy is with its magic. Plenty of soft sci-fi has completely nonsensical technology and plenty of fantasy has well-defined and logical magic systems and lore. Never forget Clarke's Third Law.

And to elaborate on what KP was just saying, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScifiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale
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Why am I supposed to be more impressed with hellfire? Phazon's done way more than that ever has. It can corrupt intangible, spiritual beings (Chozo Ghosts), it can split a world into two dimensions (Light/Dark world in MP2), and pretty much every instance of an impact crater of phazon (like this terrain) is enough to basically destroy an entire planet.

Tell me some things hellfire's done besides being fire in hell.
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Lopen posted...

Eddv posted...

Lopen posted...

The big hangup I'm having is I see no real evidence that Phazon radiates all that much aside from it being called "radiatioactive." Like, nonono don't touch cause you will die, and it moves, from what I gather, slowly towards biological material, but would Vanille really die too easily if she didn't go near it? I'm not seeing clear evidence of that?

The Red Phazon DOES slowly kill samus if she walks too close to it - i remember this from researching it when i owned Ridley.

How close is too close though? Like, if Vanille respects the Phazon, as frankly, I don't see why she wouldn't, is she still getting eaten or not?

If it were Blue Phazon I'd say its not even a question.

With red...i dont remember how close samus gets is too close.
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So you're saying if you covered a region of the world the size of the impact crater with hellfire you think it wouldn't burn the planet down?
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Yeah the Metroid Prime series could easily be renamed "Metroid: stay the hell away from Phazon". It causes every single major problem.

Anyway Dark Samus because I do think Vanille is going to be heavily nerfed by this setting even if she avoids Phazon as much as possible, and it's going to take its toll on Diablo as well (although obviously not nearly as much). That's enough to give Dark Samus the edge I think. This terrain is pretty dumb!
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I'm pretty sure Samus in her standard Varia suit takes damage from Blue Phazon, actually.
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I don't think you ever see red before you have the phazon suit so you don't have as much of a reference on how close you'd have to be for it to start damaging without protection, but they do say in the visor scan for red phazon:

"Limited data on unknown material available. Material is highly radioactive. You will take damage from direct contact. Mutagenic qualities at least 86% greater than Phazon. Unshielded bioforms below index level P will suffer fatality within moments."

And there's a lot of instances in the Impact Crater where you almost have to at least touch it, even if briefly for a moment to jump to a platform, or things like small corridors where Samus uses the spider ball to avoid touching it.

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/metroid/images/7/7a/Imact_crater_tunnel_b.png/revision/latest?cb=20130114172921
https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/metroid/images/5/57/OrangePhazonImpactCrater.png/revision/latest?cb=20141002180246
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I mean Hellfire one of those bullshit things that is said to burn through literally anything, souls incorporeal beings, whatever. But Diablo is unaffected, so eh.
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"Limited data on unknown material available. Material is highly radioactive. You will take damage from direct contact. Mutagenic qualities at least 86% greater than Phazon. Unshielded bioforms below index level P will suffer fatality within moments."
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I mean how do we know Vanille's universe and the magical powers she has don't raise her above Index level P entities? Answer... we don't.
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Thanks for that Tiro
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Lopen posted...

So you're saying if you covered a region of the world the size of the impact crater with hellfire you think it wouldn't burn the planet down?

Probably! I've never seen that happen in any fiction, or there be any real fear of hellfire beyond treating it like regular fire or lava or something. Meanwhile you get a good like 3-4 planets in the Prime series properly ****ed by one phazon crater in really ridiculous ways. I don't even get how you get a one-off occurrence of splitting a planet into two overlapping dimensions, but if that's just one random part of the laundry list of how it can kill a planet, that's pretty nuts.
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Hellfire at minimum can be taken as fire that doesn't go out, since it never stops burning

I think if you unleashed enough fire that doesn't go out on the surface of the planet the planet would die in pretty short order.

Like you could probably substitute Phazon for fire in most of these hype statements and be relatively accurate. Don't see bioforms of index lower than P really taking well to fire. Fire doesn't tend to like bioforms.
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I think a room full of Hellfire would mess up Vanille pretty badly too though!
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No doubt!

I've been told by Eddv that Phazon needs Samus to get within 5-10 feet for it to start hurting her from just the radiation which I dunno I think Vanille can probably survive this.
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Does the teleporter room they start in even have any Phazon in it?
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Curse of Destruction - The player and nearby allies will suffer from ticking damage over time, until the curse expires, at which time it detonates, doing small damage to any friendly player or minion in range.

Ring of Fire - Diablo will shoot a fireball at the player, and when it lands on the ground, it creates a medium-sized circle of flame ringed in runes. The fire causes a debuff if the player is standing in it, which will cause the hero to take fire damage over time. At the end of the curse, the player will have an explosion move outwards from them, damaging any parting members or minions in range of the blast.

If Phazon is like a poison, Destruction should be able to at least balance that out, and Ring of fire would also debuff Dmaus.

As for the clones, he also has a meteor storm like move that could take out a huge area. So Diablo has answers for pretty much everything
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And if it will be lenthy he will hit his overdrive

Overdrive - This is a buff Diablo gains in the third phase where it is able to cast its spells and abilities at a much more frequent rate. It isn't uncommon to have Diablo able to cast overlapping Rings of Fire. Diablo's movement and attack speed is also increased.

So he is definitely going to end up speedier
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He can also Teleport so it's not like he's immobile either.
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The thing about phazon, in-lore, is that close exposure causes mental degradation. This is noted in space pirate logbooks, where "phazon madness" is known as a regular occurrence shortly BEFORE mining operations for phazon began. This is additionally present when the pirates began Project Helix in order to try to mix their DNA with phazon to make supersoldiers. They got "literally too dumb to live" subjects until they extracted a strand of phazon already tempered by a Metroid.

Additionally, you have to walk right by phazon in order to get anywhere, really, in the area. And if we're going "you move. nuh-uh, you move", I figure Vanille, who doesn't know about the superradioactivity, will probably go out once and even if she comes back, she'll get supercancer or something. Or starve. Or become too stupid to live. More than usual.

That's about all I can find lore-wise other than "IS REALLY BAD DO NOT PURSUE".
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I see no reason why Vanille would try to forge way when she's got Diablo there. Unless Diablo is feeling particularly lazy and wants to use her as a tool which is arguable. But she'd buff the hell out of both of them first anyway.
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I dont feel Diablo would be susceptible to being mind fucked outside of abilities.
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I rarely participate in these, but Diablo wouldn't last 2 minutes from the first encounter with Damus, and Vanille wouldn't even be particularly likely to be present for it.
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Dark Samus

Arguments (Kamek in particular) are pretty convincing that proximity to phazon kills or cripples Vanille before the fight actually begins. Then I take Damus > Diablo 1v1.

Even if Vanille makes it to the fight, Damus is speedy/dodgy and I think Vanille has a tough time landing any debuffs on her before dying.

MenuWars posted...

I mean how do we know Vanille's universe and the magical powers she has don't raise her above Index level P entities? Answer... we don't.

If I recall correctly, Vanille's gear in this build doesn't give her any physical defense, only magical defense. Phazon seems pretty non-magical to me.
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On not this terrain I think this is a lot closer fight.

But all the phazon here is going to sideline Vanille and hamper Diablo, all while increasing Damus' toolkit.
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Vanille's issue here is that even if she has room to stay away from Red Phazon, Damus has Phazon AOE that will be hitting her or zoning her into more Phazon. It's a rough stage.
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Lopen posted...

I've been told by Eddv that Phazon needs Samus to get within 5-10 feet for it to start hurting her from just the radiation which I dunno I think Vanille can probably survive this.

Samus is wearing a suit that protects her from the environment Lopen. And later on she's specifically wearing a suit that protects her from Phazon.

Why wouldn't Samus be more resistant to it's effects?

I mean Phazon seems to have fairly magical properties, what's to say it isn't? You get scientific analysis of magical stuff in games all the times, ribbon protects against poison and confusion and stuff, why wouldn't it protect against Phazon? I mean if Phazon is so indisputably powerful and Damus fires pure beams of it why doesn't Samus die when she's hit by that fully charged beam of it when unprotected?

I need some kind of reconciliation between the power it has and the different worlds that are colliding here, because a lot of this is starting to just sound like Phazon one shots everything lawl, and I don't buy that.
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I do agree there's a major disconnect between "Phazon in the environment hurts Samus if she even gets close to it" and "Beams of pure concentrated Phazon don't one-shot Samus."
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MenuWars posted...

why doesn't Samus die when she's hit by that fully charged beam of it when unprotected?

Because in the Damus bossfight Samus is in essentially her Hypermode which oneshots nearly every enemy in the game bar bosses and even then she's on a timelimit, if she fails at that point she becomes a second Dark Samus merely due to corruptive influences.

Think about this for a moment. Samus needs to be in her STRONGEST MODE AND FORM to even stand a chance against Damus and even then when hopped up entirely on all that power she's getting Phazon corrupted into a second Dark Samus.

ftr i buy the ribbon being effective here

Think about this for a moment. Samus needs to be in her STRONGEST MODE AND FORM to even stand a chance against Damus and even then when hopped up entirely on all that power she's getting Phazon corrupted into a second Dark Samus.

This is why I give Damus so much respect in the end

A lot of games have playable sections where you're super overpowered, but they tend to be victory laps. In Metroid Prime 3, the 'overpowered phase' is what your character actually needed to be able to compete with the main villain.
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