Poll of the Day > DMed my second game of DnD yesterday.

(+) Yeah! (+)

It went well, but hooooly was that a long day.

Woke up at 8:30, forgot to buy items before the session of a game that I'm actually playing in after we just got a large wad of cash, so I spent the hour and half leading up to that game doing that. Had to grab a couple nut bars because I didn't eat breakfast before, then played for 4 hours. After that was done, I immediately had to start getting ready for the game I was DMing an hour later. Stopped part way through to make a sandwich and then went back to it. 4 hours later we finished that, and it's suddenly been over 10 hours since I had woken up and all I've done was play DnD all day.

Yeah, third world problems about having too much free time to play and all that...


The actual game was fun though. I gave them a lot more freedom to do what they wanted rather than effectively start them in a dungeon and saying "Clear it."

They had basically just got back to town and had sold the items they got in the dungeon when we started. A little bit of roleplaying later, they found out the mayor had a job for some people to escort a wagon of goods to the city and back. A little harassing the mayor later (and stealing a plate and silverware from him) and accepting the job, they went to sleep.

In the middle of the night, two of them heard a bang, and a couple of the party members went out to figure out why. They talked to a guard who said it was probably just the mage with another failed experiment. That whole thing was probably a mistake on my part, they spent a lot of time trying to figure it out where it came from and what caused it, and one of the party members wanted to stay sleeping. But on the bright side, it made them want to meet the mage the next morning who I wasn't really sure how to introduce them to or even reference without it feeling forced.

Speaking of which, the next morning they went to meet the merchant they would be escorting to the city, who one of the party members managed to hide the fact that they cleared the dungeon the day before. Afterwards, they met the eccentric mage girl in the ruined house on the hill. A little suspicion later, they asked about her and found out about the Council of White, one of the largest mage's guilds in the world who it seems the girl is a part of.

Satisfied, they finally set out on their trip. They got ambushed by goblins on the way who managed to steal some cider from the wagon while they were fighting. It was a pretty hilarious fight, I had 2 of the goblins jump off a 10ft ledge in the ambush, which would deal 1d6 nonlethal damage. Each of the goblins had 6 HP and they both rolled max, so they collapsed right off the bat. After that, they followed the trails to a few goblins drinking the cider and managed to barely kill them all before retrieving it and continuing on their journey.

The next day, they came across a couple of "trees" making loud bangs. They didn't seem to be hostile so the party continued on. A little while later, they got attacked by some dogs. After narrowly finishing that fight, (only because the mage cast color spray knocking out 3 of the 4 dogs and 2 of the 4 party members) we ended the session there. Well, after someone decided they wanted to skin the dogs, anyways.

All and all, it was a pretty good session and the players seemed to like it more than they did the first session.
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Mario_VS_DK posted...

A little harassing the mayor later (and stealing a plate and silverware from him) and accepting the job, they went to sleep.

Adventurers. They will get the job done, but they will make your life miserable (... whether you are an NPC or the DM).
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I never understood DnD

Reading this doesn't help
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I_Abibde posted...

Mario_VS_DK posted...

A little harassing the mayor later (and stealing a plate and silverware from him) and accepting the job, they went to sleep.

Adventurers. They will get the job done, but they will make your life miserable (... whether you are an NPC or the DM).

I am playing a Drow Assassin in my current game. I describe my role as "Keeping the DM and the rest of the party on their toes". I have already threatened a noble, stolen from a high elf bank, poisoned a guard captain, and tricked the party into following me into the Underdark. And we aren't even at level 4 yet.
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krazychao5 posted...

I never understood DnD

Reading this doesn't help

You come up with a character.

The GM describes a scenario.
You tell him what your character does in that scenario.
He tells you the results.
Repeat ad nausea.

People view their character as an avatar of themselves, so they can get really invested. /shrug

(There are also frequent fights, but the way those work are totally unrelated. You basically enter into a FF Tactics game for 15 minutes.)
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I_Abibde posted...

Mario_VS_DK posted...

A little harassing the mayor later (and stealing a plate and silverware from him) and accepting the job, they went to sleep.

Adventurers. They will get the job done, but they will make your life miserable (... whether you are an NPC or the DM).

Occasionally a player too. :P

krazychao5 posted...

I never understood DnD

Reading this doesn't help

I think it's more something you have to experience to understand. It really is a lot of fun though.

Dikitain posted...

I am playing a Drow Assassin in my current game. I describe my role as "Keeping the DM and the rest of the party on their toes". I have already threatened a noble, stolen from a high elf bank, poisoned a guard captain, and tricked the party into following me into the Underdark. And we aren't even at level 4 yet.

And you've gotten away with all of that? No consequences or anything?

Lightning Bolt posted...

(There are also frequent fights, but the way those work are totally unrelated. You basically enter into a FF Tactics game for 15 minutes.)

In one game I play, those fights aren't too frequent, but they normally last around 2 to 3 hours... :/ They might not be frequent for that very reason though, either because we're avoiding fights/the DM is avoiding fights because of it, or because it takes us so long to get to the next one.
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Mario_VS_DK posted...

In one game I play, those fights aren't too frequent, but they normally last around 2 to 3 hours... :/

What on earth? What takes you so long? o.O
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Lightning Bolt posted...

Mario_VS_DK posted...

In one game I play, those fights aren't too frequent, but they normally last around 2 to 3 hours... :/

What on earth? What takes you so long? o.O

That's normal for more intense games of 4e

Mario_VS_DK posted...

Dikitain posted...

I am playing a Drow Assassin in my current game. I describe my role as "Keeping the DM and the rest of the party on their toes". I have already threatened a noble, stolen from a high elf bank, poisoned a guard captain, and tricked the party into following me into the Underdark. And we aren't even at level 4 yet.

And you've gotten away with all of that? No consequences or anything?

Some of it yes. I rolled a high enough stealth to rob the bank, and a high enough deception to get away with poisoning the guard. The noble not so much, that actually lead to a mini quest to help clear my (and the parties) name. It still is kind of unresolved so I could see that coming back later (the DM mentioned as an aside to me that I supposedly wasn't supposed to trigger that quest until like level 8). The Underdark thing is part of my "personal quest" so that one my character was going to do anyways, and I actually have a whole story-line reason why the party would want to help me to complete it.
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Since you seem to know a lot about DnD, can you answer this:

Are the Community episodes (S02 E14 and S05 E10) where they play DnD accurate depictions of what a typical game is like? Ignoring the fact that they're condensed into 22 minutes, of course.
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Lightning Bolt posted...

Mario_VS_DK posted...

In one game I play, those fights aren't too frequent, but they normally last around 2 to 3 hours... :/

What on earth? What takes you so long? o.O

Our druid who is still somewhat new and has to micromanage a whole butt ton of stuff because she's playing a druid, and our oracle who just doesn't really understand the game since we stopped playing every week.

Dikitain posted...

Some of it yes. I rolled a high enough stealth to rob the bank, and a high enough deception to get away with poisoning the guard. The noble not so much, that actually lead to a mini quest to help clear my (and the parties) name. It still is kind of unresolved so I could see that coming back later (the DM mentioned as an aside to me that I supposedly wasn't supposed to trigger that quest until like level 8). The Underdark thing is part of my "personal quest" so that one my character was going to do anyways, and I actually have a whole story-line reason why the party would want to help me to complete it.

Well geeze. I'd probably be a whole lot more punishing if my players were doing stuff like that.

Muffinz0rz posted...

Since you seem to know a lot about DnD, can you answer this:

Are the Community episodes (S02 E14 and S05 E10) where they play DnD accurate depictions of what a typical game is like? Ignoring the fact that they're condensed into 22 minutes, of course.

Haven't watched it. Every group also plays differently. But probably not regardless.
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We played last night as well for about 5-6 hours. Was a fun session although we didn't get too much done. Think we spent more time then was expected on a few things along the way. We explored an underground dungeon area at first (which was almost sentient since it closed up behind us!!), then found an inquisition prison, met yoda (thats what I call him but he was a goblin cleric with a white beard), and the Monster Mash crew (all goblins so far), and eventually escaped up to the town above. We then proceeded to spend the rest of the time shopping in town and visiting a church, and didn't really move the story along at all.

Still was quite fun, and we leveled up at the end of the session as well, so I get to take my most favorite feat ever Stout Nimbleness. It gives my halfling/dwarf (stout halfling) +5 movement speed (same as humans and normal sized characters), and double his acrobatics proficency (Parkour!!!!), along with +1 dex.

Only brings his dex up to 16, but at least it's a bit better now (Considering he's supposed to be very agile etc).

My DM made a special sub-class for barbarian that he is going to get eventually (probably around level 5) that revolves around dex instead of strength. Up till now his dex and strength were both 15, but now he will have a 16 dex. Maybe at level 8 I'll take 2 more dex, but probably not (too many awesome feats he wants). He really likes to cook, so he may take Gourmand at 8 (My meals help heal everyone at night).
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Muffinz0rz posted...

Since you seem to know a lot about DnD, can you answer this:

Are the Community episodes (S02 E14 and S05 E10) where they play DnD accurate depictions of what a typical game is like? Ignoring the fact that they're condensed into 22 minutes, of course.

No because there's not 20 minutes of bitching about rules.
In theory, yes that's how it can work, but it's entirely dependent on the group of people who run it

shadowsword87 posted...

No because there's not 20 minutes of bitching about rules.
In theory, yes that's how it can work, but it's entirely dependent on the group of people who run it

To continually reemphasize my usual accusation that a lot of your perceptions are colored by playing in shitty groups, I've never actually had a 20 minute argument or complaint about how the rules work in any game I've ever played.

If anything, I think I've played with precisely one rules lawyer-y type player out of every group I've ever been in.


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

To continually reemphasize my usual accusation that a lot of your perceptions are colored by playing in s***ty groups, I've never actually had a 20 minute argument or complaint about how the rules work in any game I've ever played.

If anything, I think I've played with precisely one rules lawyer-y type player out of every group I've ever been in.

Eh, it was an exaggeration, like at most there's like 5 minutes of someone explaining to me how grappling or hacking works or whatever, and me not figuring it out.

shadowsword87 posted...

ParanoidObsessive posted...

To continually reemphasize my usual accusation that a lot of your perceptions are colored by playing in s***ty groups, I've never actually had a 20 minute argument or complaint about how the rules work in any game I've ever played.

If anything, I think I've played with precisely one rules lawyer-y type player out of every group I've ever been in.

Eh, it was an exaggeration, like at most there's like 5 minutes of someone explaining to me how grappling or hacking works or whatever, and me not figuring it out.

Is it really that complex? I was under the impression it was just, "I want to hack this" and the DM says "here are your odds" and then you say yes or no and if you say yes then a number is rolled and the number determines success or failure.
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Dikitain posted...

Mario_VS_DK posted...

Dikitain posted...

I am playing a Drow Assassin in my current game. I describe my role as "Keeping the DM and the rest of the party on their toes". I have already threatened a noble, stolen from a high elf bank, poisoned a guard captain, and tricked the party into following me into the Underdark. And we aren't even at level 4 yet.

And you've gotten away with all of that? No consequences or anything?

Some of it yes. I rolled a high enough stealth to rob the bank, and a high enough deception to get away with poisoning the guard. The noble not so much, that actually lead to a mini quest to help clear my (and the parties) name. It still is kind of unresolved so I could see that coming back later (the DM mentioned as an aside to me that I supposedly wasn't supposed to trigger that quest until like level 8). The Underdark thing is part of my "personal quest" so that one my character was going to do anyways, and I actually have a whole story-line reason why the party would want to help me to complete it.

Going to the Underdark at level 3 is the consequences. Just wait until you wander into your first group of Myconids
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Muffinz0rz posted...

Is it really that complex? I was under the impression it was just, "I want to hack this" and the DM says "here are your odds" and then you say yes or no and if you say yes then a number is rolled and the number determines success or failure.

So the game I'm running, Eclipse Phase, brute force hacking takes 10 minutes, which can be reduced by a positive trait by 40%, and for every action you can get somewhere around 4 mental actions (depending on equipment), which is 6 seconds each. So that is around 3 actions in order to make a hacking check.
Once you make the hacking check, you can determine your status in the system, which gives you modifiers as well as different options inside of the system.
I can get more detailed if you would like.

shadowsword87 posted...

So the game I'm running, Eclipse Phase

~rolls eyes theatrically~


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

~rolls eyes theatrically~

Is this a good place to tell you that I picked up the core books for GURPS 4th Edition? Apparently, they recently got a reprint.
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Darn. I need to start planning out the next session, and I have basically only today and tomorrow to do so. :s

I don't think anyone has leveled up their characters yet either.
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Muffinz0rz posted...

Since you seem to know a lot about DnD, can you answer this:

Are the Community episodes (S02 E14 and S05 E10) where they play DnD accurate depictions of what a typical game is like? Ignoring the fact that they're condensed into 22 minutes, of course.

Sort of. It gets the spirit of things right, but it leaves out a lot of the nitty gritty of the rules. And the DM doesn't roll for everything, the players do all of their own rolling.

Muffinz0rz posted...

shadowsword87 posted...

ParanoidObsessive posted...

To continually reemphasize my usual accusation that a lot of your perceptions are colored by playing in s***ty groups, I've never actually had a 20 minute argument or complaint about how the rules work in any game I've ever played.

If anything, I think I've played with precisely one rules lawyer-y type player out of every group I've ever been in.

Eh, it was an exaggeration, like at most there's like 5 minutes of someone explaining to me how grappling or hacking works or whatever, and me not figuring it out.

Is it really that complex? I was under the impression it was just, "I want to hack this" and the DM says "here are your odds" and then you say yes or no and if you say yes then a number is rolled and the number determines success or failure.

The DM doesn't have to tell you the odds. You've got a character sheet and will generally add a number to the die based on how skilled your character is. After you roll the die, the DM will tell you if you succeeded or not.
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I_Abibde posted...

Is this a good place to tell you that I picked up the core books for GURPS 4th Edition? Apparently, they recently got a reprint.

They've never really been fully out of print, as far as I know. And if you're into the system, more power to you.

All I've ever really said about GURPS in the past is that it has a system that's a bit overcomplicated for a lot of people, and that I've never known a single person who actually USES the system, as opposed to just buying the sourcebooks (which were very good for what they were - ie, useful as hell historical setting info in an age before Wikipedia) and using them to supplement other systems.

Like, I've got a ton of setting books for GURPS, and I've used most of them for Amber games at one time or another. I also used the Japan one for an Akashic mage I was playing in Mage, and some of the Celtic Myth book for one of my Changeling characters.


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PMarth2002 posted...

The DM doesn't have to tell you the odds. You've got a character sheet and will generally add a number to the die based on how skilled your character is. After you roll the die, the DM will tell you if you succeeded or not.

In some games, and for some rolls (like "Insight", "Sense Motive", "Perception", etc), they won't even give you that much - they'll roll for you where you can't see the number, and then give you information accordingly.

There are some rolls which are WAY too easy to metagame just from the result ("I rolled a 1, I'm totally not going to trust anything the GM tells me!"), where it can actually be way more fun if the GM rolls for you so you have no idea whether you rolled low or high, and if you roll low, they can actively lie to you.

"Yes, while you were initially suspicious of Mr. Sinastrov McEvilface, in retrospect you get the feeling that he's actually quite trustworthy, and is probably telling you the truth about the Definitely Not a Trap Inn, and how you should go there to meet with his contact, Bob Absolutelynotgoingtotryandkillyouson."

Some GMs may do the same thing if a bad guy is using spells like Charm Person or something similar, where rather than having you roll your saving throw (and thus knowing for sure something bad likely just happened if you roll low), they'll just roll for you and then subtly encourage you to like/trust an NPC by how they play them, or just slip you a note so YOU know what happened but the other players don't.


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

PMarth2002 posted...

The DM doesn't have to tell you the odds. You've got a character sheet and will generally add a number to the die based on how skilled your character is. After you roll the die, the DM will tell you if you succeeded or not.

In some games, and for some rolls (like "Insight", "Sense Motive", "Perception", etc), they won't even give you that much - they'll roll for you where you can't see the number, and then give you information accordingly.

There are some rolls which are WAY too easy to metagame just from the result ("I rolled a 1, I'm totally not going to trust anything the GM tells me!"), where it can actually be way more fun if the GM rolls for you so you have no idea whether you rolled low or high, and if you roll low, they can actively lie to you.

"Yes, while you were initially suspicious of Mr. Sinastrov McEvilface, in retrospect you get the feeling that he's actually quite trustworthy, and is probably telling you the truth about the Definitely Not a Trap Inn, and how you should go there to meet with his contact, Bob Absolutelynotgoingtotryandkillyouson."

Some GMs may do the same thing if a bad guy is using spells like Charm Person or something similar, where rather than having you roll your saving throw (and thus knowing for sure something bad likely just happened if you roll low), they'll just roll for you and then subtly encourage you to like/trust an NPC by how they play them, or just slip you a note so YOU know what happened but the other players don't.

In my experience the DM rolling for a player isn't very common at all. Perception is probably the single most common skill check I've had to make. My point was mostly just that community episode was just misleading in that respect.
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PMarth2002 posted...

In my experience the DM rolling for a player isn't very common at all.

Didn't say it was common, just said that some GMs do like to handle things that way.

Usually, it depends entirely on the level of trust between GM and players, and whether or not the GM sees themselves more as a narrative facilitator (which tends to be the more modern view) or an active antagonist to players (which tended to be the older stereotype for GMs).

If you trust your GM to be fair, you may not mind them rolling in secret for you. If you assume they're going to cheat, you're more likely to demand to roll your own rolls.


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Oh yeah, I built a character in Traveller yesterday. It was pretty damn fun, I could see myself just doing that while I'm break at work or something.

It can be a two-way street. I had to roll for a couple of players who were serial dice-droppers ("Ooo, look, it's a 20!").

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Like, I've got a ton of setting books for GURPS, and I've used most of them for Amber games at one time or another.

Those are my next GURPS goal. I need to look up a general list and see which ones might be handy to have around.
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Hmm. Anyone know of some cool quests I can give the players while they'll be waiting for someone for a few days in the small city next session?

I have a couple things in mind. They should end up meeting a member of the Council of White (a large mage's guild) who is looking for someone they met last session, which they may or may not notice.

They'll probably also learn of the guilds that control the city, an adventurer's guild, a different mage's guild, a merchant's guild, a crafter's guild, and a bounty hunter's guild. Possibly include the seedier, but no less powerful thieve's guild and assassin's guild. I feel like there should be more guilds, considering the nature of the city, but can't think of any others. Also it would probably be somewhat overwhelming to throw them all at the players.

One of the players is from a powerful family of assassins, so I'd really like to implement that somehow, but I'm not really sure how. If he mentions his family name, I'll probably have someone run scared and possibly have some thugs attack the party later to try and get his to go back to his family.

Other than those ideas I really don't know what they can do. Then again, I suppose just building the guilds might be more work than I can handle in the next couple days before the session.
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shadowsword87 posted...

Oh yeah, I built a character in Traveller yesterday. It was pretty damn fun, I could see myself just doing that while I'm break at work or something.

Which version of the system? There were some relatively significant changes between editions.

And are you just making one for the hell of it, or were you think of running/playing a game of it?



I_Abibde posted...

Those are my next GURPS goal. I need to look up a general list and see which ones might be handy to have around.

Depends on what you want to use them for.

If you want them as literal sourcebooks, which ones you want would depend on what setting you want to play in. Medieval Russia? Buy the Russia book. Sengoku-era Japan? Get the Japan book.

Then there's the one-step remove sort of deal. Like if you want to make an entirely new nation in a fantasy setting, you might say to yourself "Hey, I want a kingdom that is really Egypt-flavored," at which point the Egypt sourcebook might come in handy. Or you might say "Man, my current sci-fi space adventure game could really benefit if I introduced a space empire that is basically Arabian Nights in space," in which case the Arabian Nights book would be key, but you could also benefit from things like GURPS Aliens or one of the other sci-fi/space sourcebooks.

With Amber I'd do that a lot - I'd do deliberate fusions that were combinations of two radically different real world cultures, and try to figure out how they could work. Like a Roman-esque trading empire entirely based on tropical islands, or a Celtic/Chinese mix, and so on. I also had one character who basically grew up in an Arabian Nights-esque land, and one who was straight out of a Western.

And, of course, if you just have a bunch of them, you could always just sort of read through them at random and see if any ideas stick for you. Like having a Roman gladiator arena, populated by Egyptian priest warriors and Arabic sorcerers, set in a space station.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GURPS_books

I basically used that as a checklist myself to see which sourcebooks were out there that I didn't already have (in Ye Olden Days I used to just buy them off the shelf of my local gaming store, but more recently - after the RP bubble burst - I mainly just order them via Amazon). Most of the newer ones should be relatively easy to find, but some of the older ones are a bit harder (and cost more). Then again, the writing in the newer ones tends to be much better, so tracking down stuff like China might not be worth it to you (especially in the Wikipedia era, as I mentioned).


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Mario_VS_DK posted...

Hmm. Anyone know of some cool quests I can give the players while they'll be waiting for someone for a few days in the small city next session?

I always like to tailor mini "throw away" scenes (ie, stuff unrelated to the main quest) to the characters themselves, based on how the players have been playing them (or just how they play in general). Know your player and how they play, and you will have a kit full of hooks you can use to reel them in.

For instance, if you have a player who tends to be sympathetic to NPCs, have the group see a woman being manhandled into an alley, or a fat merchant apparently being robbed. Imply they (the PCs) are the only ones who really notice it, so if they don't act no one will, but TRY to describe it all as part of an overall flavor description of the city, and don't linger (so they don't assume this is the deliberate plot they're meant to follow and immediately chase after it). Make it obvious that they're welcome to pursue or ignore it as they see fit.

Then, if they do intervene, there are complications. If they move to save the woman, the person manhandling her accuses her of being a criminal, and he's a bounty hunter sent to retrieve her. She claims he's an abusive ex she ran away from, and he's trying to take her back. Who do you believe? Maybe BOTH are lying? No matter which side the players choose, there will be future repercussions. There can even be repercussions if they don't choose either side - walk away from the whole mess or ignore it entirely, and they may later discover via other means that the conflict was important and they should have acted. Perhaps the woman was really an evil sorceress, and they had a chance to catch her early. Or perhaps she was a messenger of the king, and now the villains have one of the secret magic keys they need to do naughty things.

I also have a tendency to loot Lone Wolf for throwaway scene ideas:

http://www.projectaon.org/en/xhtml/lw/06tkot/sect219.htm

How do the players react to a scene like that? It might be only a momentary thing, but it can easily have later repercussions (that throwaway noble in that single scene shows up like three more times as an antagonist over the course of the next 20 years in those books).

You can also throw in minor, fun, not overly important scenes with a minor chance of reward, like this one:

http://www.projectaon.org/en/xhtml/lw/08tjoh/sect151.htm
http://www.projectaon.org/en/xhtml/lw/08tjoh/sect126.htm
http://www.projectaon.org/en/xhtml/lw/08tjoh/sect166.htm

To summarize, while on a barge and killing time before the "important" stuff happens, the player can either antagonize a fight or make a new friend depending on what type of beer they order. Then they can play a riddle game to make some extra coin, and ultimately wind up having an opportunity to fight a criminally wanted necromancer who just coincidentally crosses their path.

None of it has any real significance to the overall story, it's all just the little stuff that happens between the big scenes. But all of it CAN have much larger importance if the players really latch onto it (say, they begin an investigation into the necromancer, distracting themselves from their previous goals). Maybe they discover the necromancer is tied to their existing enemies... or perhaps they learn of a new, entirely unexpected threat...

Or maybe he's just a random dude in a world filled with random dudes.

Generally, though, every PC should have backstory you can mine for the occasional minor scene. Maybe they see an old friend they used to know. Or an old enemy they once defeated is now in the street begging for change. They see a pretty girl who reminds them of a lost love, or a painting of a far away land they once knew but can never return to.


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Mario_VS_DK posted...

One of the players is from a powerful family of assassins, so I'd really like to implement that somehow, but I'm not really sure how.

Someone staggers up to the group. They've clearly been stabbed multiple times. Gasping out their last breath, they die before they can say anything. In their hand, they're clutching a signet ring with the PC's family crest. Did they kill this person? Is he an ally of theirs, murdered by an unexpected threat? Was it coincidence that he found the PC, or was he actively trying to find them to deliver a message? Or worse, were they killed by someone specifically to send a message to the PC?

The answers to all of these questions depend entirely on how the players react to the scene (and how it fits with your greater plans).

Or perhaps they're in a large city, with a bit of a carnival vibe. Describe multiple acts, including a clown-masked juggler in fool's motley who deftly juggles three or four knives without cutting himself. Later, there is a commotion - the fool has killed someone by throwing a knife (or three) at them, then dashed off into the crowd and down narrow alleys. Do the PCs chase, or decide it's none of their business? If they follow, in one alley they discover a discarded mask and motley - now the killer could look like almost anyone (bonus points if they looked like a man in disguise but it was secretly a woman all along, because PLOT TWIST). Can they find the killer in a crowded city full of strangers, with no real idea of what they actually look like?

And if they find the killer, who are they and why did they do it? Are they part of the assassin house? Does the assassin player possibly realize this before the other PCs, and is thus forced to choose to either risk revealing their secret or subtly help the killer escape? If they do catch the killer, what if they claim to have a good reason for the killing? Their victim was evil, or they were acting on orders of the king, or the victim was themselves an assassin sent to murder a powerful and important noble (perhaps implying a brewing civil war in the assassin family itself?).

For more funzies, perhaps there are rival assassin houses with conflicting motives (like the Iga and Koga ninjas of Japan). Perhaps they are now on opposite sides of a political struggle, and their covert shadow war will cause all sorts of problems unless the PCs investigate and do what they can to end it (one way or another). Do the PCs support the other PC's assassin family? Or does a conflict potentially occur if the rival family seems to have the more "noble" (or at least convenient) goals? Will the party split as one player chooses to side with his family while his allies turn against them?

And worst of all - if this seemingly coincidental side event starts to unravel into a major conspiracy or behind-the-scenes threat, can they afford to spend time investigating it? Make it clear that they can either meet with the contact they were already waiting for to continue that plot line, or must pursue this new (and seemingly unrelated) mystery. If they wait and continue their original goal, the assassin trail starts to grow cold, and events may play out in their absence. If they rush after the new mystery, they miss meeting the contact they were originally waiting for, and later find that he was killed by someone (either because he knew something important, or possessed something). Or they attempt to split the party to accomplish both goals, but potentially risk getting killed in a fight they're not strong enough to win. Make it feel like they live in an active world that doesn't simply wait for them to get around to finishing sidequests, and that there CAN be consequences for their choices.


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

-snip-

A couple interesting ideas. I should be able to adapt one or two of those to fit into the theme of the city that they'll be in at least.

As I said earlier, the city would be controlled by the guilds, and looking it over, for each of them to have a major role to keep the city functioning as a trade city, it would have to be a very lawful city. To the point where crime is only done by the darker guilds in order to prevent crime from being widespread. (The darker guilds would be committing these crimes either to protect the city from others trying to take control of it or perhaps because they were paid by someone. Regardless, they would be sanctioned crimes.)

So basically, stopping (almost) any crime would absolutely get them on the bad side of the guilds. (As well as committing any crimes, of course.) So the more I think about it like that, the more I think it might actually be interesting to put something like that after someone specifically tells them not to interfere with anything that happens in the city no matter what it is. Maybe I'll try something like that.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

-snip-

I suppose I failed to mention that the player who is from a major assassin family effectively left the family in favor of poetry. So anything that comes up would be either some thugs trying to bring him back 'home' or the guilds being wary of him and potentially doing something.

Still some good ideas there though. I think I can adapt one to fit the game.
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Mario_VS_DK posted...

As I said earlier, the city would be controlled by the guilds, and looking it over, for each of them to have a major role to keep the city functioning as a trade city, it would have to be a very lawful city. To the point where crime is only done by the darker guilds in order to prevent crime from being widespread. (The darker guilds would be committing these crimes either to protect the city from others trying to take control of it or perhaps because they were paid by someone. Regardless, they would be sanctioned crimes.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilds_of_Ankh-Morpork

Of particular note to you might be the Thieves' Guild.

Ankh-Morpork's also a VERY nice example of a city that is regulated to the gills but which is still pretty damned chaotic at its core - legislation and conflicting spheres of control doesn't always lead to orderly interactions. At a certain point, bureaucracy becomes king, and a unique sort of chaos tends to seep into things.


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Mario_VS_DK posted...

I suppose I failed to mention that the player who is from a major assassin family effectively left the family in favor of poetry. So anything that comes up would be either some thugs trying to bring him back 'home' or the guilds being wary of him and potentially doing something.

Someone can leave a family but still retain a fondness for it. Or, at least, be inclined to feel bad if they learn that someone else is murdering all their family members.

The idea is to create conflict, and conflict isn't always combat. Forcing the assassin player to come to terms with how he sees his family is itself drama.

Of course, maybe he hates them all and would be happy to see them all die. In which case, casting them more into the antagonist role (ie, "bringing him home" or a relative deciding to hunt him down because he "knows too much") definitely becomes the more likely course to take. Though you could also touch on it obliquely (a rival assassin family is killing your entire house, and you're a target because they either don't believe or don't care that you've left - so now it's your problem whether you want it or not. So now you ostensibly have to help - and potentially work with - your family to help yourself. Or do you look for a third option that puts a pox on both of their houses?).

And then there's more complex interactions. What if his family makes an alliance with a rival assassin family, but the conditions of the alliance involve marrying one of their daughters to the PC (whether the PC likes it or not)? Then you've got two families actively trying to force him to marry, while combative factions in both houses might instead be trying to kill him to prevent the marriage/alliance. Then throw in the proposed spouse, who might actually be a lovely young woman who is quite pleasant and who actively wants to marry him (maybe she's a hopeless romantic and feels like they're destined to be in love), and who is willing to become an active support NPC to the group... how does the PC react to all this?


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Which version of the system? There were some relatively significant changes between editions.

And are you just making one for the hell of it, or were you think of running/playing a game of it?

Mongoose, the 2d6 version.

We were planning on making a oneshot, but then character generation took the entire time, and we put it off.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilds_of_Ankh-Morpork

Of particular note to you might be the Thieves' Guild.

Ankh-Morpork's also a VERY nice example of a city that is regulated to the gills but which is still pretty damned chaotic at its core - legislation and conflicting spheres of control doesn't always lead to orderly interactions. At a certain point, bureaucracy becomes king, and a unique sort of chaos tends to seep into things.

Hm. Reading that it certainly gives me a better idea for how it would all function, but I still believe that the city would be mainly lawful. Sure things might be somewhat unstable at the bureaucratic level, but the city as a whole functions very lawfully to anyone who doesn't look too closely.

I also believe that the guilds in the city work together more out of necessity rather than to make the city better functioning. If infighting were to begin, it wouldn't be long before another force comes to take control of the city behind the scenes while they are distracted with each other. Those other forces would also be the reason why each guild is necessary for the city to function and keep the all of the guilds in control.

Perhaps if the players stick around this area for a while, I might have behind the scenes conflict of the city escalate and have another force sweep in to try and take control.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Someone can leave a family but still retain a fondness for it. Or, at least, be inclined to feel bad if they learn that someone else is murdering all their family members.

The idea is to create conflict, and conflict isn't always combat. Forcing the assassin player to come to terms with how he sees his family is itself drama.

Oh, absolutely. I agree on all points which is why I feel like going the route I mentioned earlier. His family wouldn't be focused upon this city, which is why the guilds in it would be cautious of him. That and the fact that most stories about mob bosses always have them very protective of their children so that they can continue the family name, which is why I thought of having some thugs trying to bring him back home. Not to harm him, but to continue the family so it stays the powerhouse that it is.

I do like the idea of his family forcing him to marry someone to combine families though. It might be something to consider down the road.
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Mario_VS_DK posted...

I also believe that the guilds in the city work together more out of necessity rather than to make the city better functioning.

To use Ankh-Morpork as an example again, each guild generally sticks to its own business, and does what it needs to do to turn a profit in its own field. Each group works selfishly in and of itself, but because their own self-interest requires the city to be successful (ie, if the city fails, the population will drop and the wealth will leave, so thieves will have nothing to steal, beggars will have no one to beg from, and assassin's will have no one to hire them). And since keeping the city as a whole successful benefits every guild, the guilds tend to work together to help minimize disruptive influences and encourage urban growth. Because it is in the best interests of most guilds to see the city survive and prosper, they will act in ways to support the city (except when it seems like a lost cause), and ultimately, without entirely meaning to, will help turn the city as a whole into a solid, functioning entity.

In some ways, it's like the ideal of free-market capitalism carried to its conclusion. The system is self-regulating, and as each individual works for their own benefit, they also benefit the whole, and thus, the other members, because each individual profits more when the group profits as a whole.

In theory, the Thieves could rob indiscriminately, or the Assassins could just start killing whoever they wanted without any sort of rules, or the Beggars could start robbing people, etc, but they all have a vested interest in keeping the city functioning because they make more money as-is than they would if things were thrown into anarchy.

That being said, each group in and of itself tends to have its own rules, and its own muscle to enforce those rules. If you're a thief who pisses off the assassins, they're still going to kill you, and you won't be able to appeal to the city guard for help (and your own superiors probably cut you loose for causing trouble).

It's not really LAWFUL, per se. It's orderly in its own way, but it's an order made up of multiple ordered systems coexisting in one place and operating independently of each other. Yes, there are laws, and rules, and traditions, and assumptions about what one should and shouldn't do, and all of those things are enforced in various ways, but it's definitely a system that can be played by anyone devious enough to do so, and there's no singular control or force of order involved. And while any number of guilds MIGHT be willing to cooperate from time-to-time, they're just as often willing to act almost like separate overlapping fiefs within the same space rather than an organized network.

Though an adventurer used to the idea of trying to befriend the guy in charge and let their authority trickle down might be cruelly shocked to discover that things don't really work that way there.


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Mario_VS_DK posted...

but I still believe that... ...the city as a whole functions very lawfully to anyone who doesn't look too closely.

In Ankh-Morpork's case, the usual assumption is that the city looks chaotic as hell, and an outsider will see a dozen or a hundred different smaller groups all pulling in different directions for their own personal interests, but somehow, the interweaving pattern of self-interest manages to produce something resembling a functional city. Very few people outside of the Patrician himself are entirely aware of how the city doesn't pull itself apart almost constantly (and the stories themselves imply that's at least partly because the Patrician has people to step in and "fix" things whenever someone particularly chaotic wants to throw a wrench into the workings - in later books, this almost always involves either the City Guard or Moist von Lipwig).

Ankh-Morpork originally started out as something of a parody version of Lankhmar (from the Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories), but it basically evolved into a fantasy version of what a medieval city would actually tend to be like. As Pratchett once put it, when you're building a fake city, you should start by figuring out how they get rid of the sewage and then work your way up from there, rather than starting with the king and working your way down.

Here's probably the best quote from the books as to how (and why) the city wound up with an officially recognized Thieves' Guild:

"One of the Patrician’s greatest contributions to the reliable operation of Ankh-Morpork had been, very early in his administration, the legalising of the ancient Guild of Thieves. Crime was always with us, he reasoned, and therefore, if you were going to have crime, it at least should be organised crime.

And so the Guild had been encouraged to come out of the shadows and build a big Guildhouse, take their place at civic banquets, and set up their training college with day-release courses and City and Guilds certificates and everything. In exchange for the winding down of the Watch, they agreed, while trying to keep their faces straight, to keep crime levels to a level to be determined annually. That way, everyone could plan ahead, said Lord Vetinari, and part of the uncertainty had been removed from the chaos that is life.

And then, a little while later, the Patrician summoned the leading thieves again and said, oh, by the way, there was something else. What was it, now? Oh, yes…

I know who you are, he said. I know where you live. I know what kind of horse you ride. I know where your wife has her hair done. I know where your lovely children, how old are they now, my, doesn’t time fly, I know where they play. So you won’t forget about what we agreed, will you? And he smiled."

So basically, the major crime lords of the city agreed to organize, after a fashion, because they assumed they were duping the Patrician, but ultimately, they didn't realize the trap they were stepping into until it was too late. But also, after the Guild had been running for a while, they realized they were all making far more profit working together and relatively organized than they had ever made working alone, so most of them settled down and got fat and generally grew satisfied with the arrangement (and then went out of their way to murder the ever-living fuck out of any freelancers or would-be rebels who rocked the boat).

In some ways, it fits the pattern of how organized crime groups tend to form and establish territory in the real world, albeit with the official civil government actually recognizing them as a valid entity with permission to operate "outside the law" (not entirely dissimilar to the Mafia's offer to work for the US government during WWII, or implied Mafia/CIA ties afterwards).


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See in a lot of ways, all that sounds like a lawful oriented city. Lawful evil is defined more or less defined as a criminal who lives by a code, whether that code is to never kill, only steal from the rich or only kill the worthless. And it seems like the entire city of Ankh-Morpork functions off of strict codes like that, and those who fail to follow pay a steep price.

There's always going to be conflict, that doesn't mean they are chaotic. It simply means that, conflict. There's still going to be conflict between lawful good and lawful evil. There will also be conflict between lawful evil and another lawful evil creature or organization. I mean, it can even happen between two lawful good creatures with different point of views or are trying to protect different things that may have to put the other at risk.

That same conflict will certainly exist in my city, but probably not to the same extent. And thanks to your replies, I have a much better idea of how it will exist and how to better implement it all. And at times, the city may even look chaotic in a way, (I liked the idea of someone being attacked in an alley and the players would have to make a choice about going against someone who told them not to intervene if they see anything like that, or to try and save the person. And if they do, they may have to face the guilds.) but it will ultimately come back to laws and agreements that keep the city running the way it does.

The guilds in my city will certainly out for themselves, but they'll be careful about how they do it making sure not to anger the others. You wouldn't exactly want to get caught in a 1 versus 6 fight, would you? If the players stick around, I might consider having some of those guilds be in alliances with each other to try and overthrow the other guilds or maintain their position on the city council, as well as potentially making one or two of the guilds puppets to another guild.

This could let me slowly throw the city into chaos in a way that makes sense unless the players decide to intervene in some way. Or even if they fail to intervene, as I was talking about before, another organization may step in and take control of the politics in the city.

Before that though, I'll need to figure out exactly how the guilds all function with each other. It's likely that they would strike up deals with each other, as they are the controlling forces of the city. So the merchant's guild may have a deal to buy things from the thieve's guild. Meanwhile, as a part of the deal, the thieve's guild would avoid stealing from any shops that are a part of the merchant's guild. Things like that.

Though, thinking about it right now, it all comes back to trading. So it seems like the merchant's guild would likely be the major force of the city, perhaps unless I split it up up into several smaller guilds. Either that or not have merchant's guild. Certainly something I would have to work out.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

As Pratchett once put it, when you're building a fake city, you should start by figuring out how they get rid of the sewage and then work your way up from there, rather than starting with the king and working your way down.

I really like that. I'll have to keep that in mind for the next city I make for sure.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GURPS_books

*thumbs up*

Thank you for both the list and the attendant advice!
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RFED'ed? :P
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20 minutes until session 3. I really feel like I'm forgetting something.
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Discord having problems mid game is kind of sucky. :/
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Mario_VS_DK posted...

I really feel like I'm forgetting something.

The goblins need grenade launchers.
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Dikitain posted...

I_Abibde posted...

Mario_VS_DK posted...

A little harassing the mayor later (and stealing a plate and silverware from him) and accepting the job, they went to sleep.

Adventurers. They will get the job done, but they will make your life miserable (... whether you are an NPC or the DM).

I am playing a Drow Assassin in my current game. I describe my role as "Keeping the DM and the rest of the party on their toes". I have already threatened a noble, stolen from a high elf bank, poisoned a guard captain, and tricked the party into following me into the Underdark. And we aren't even at level 4 yet.

So you're the type of player I never want in my game
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Alright, notes to self:

Have more of a game plan and railroad the players an little bit instead of knowing everything about where they're going to and try to improv it all.

Create more mundane things for them to do when you're giving them free reign to do what they want.

More combat. One of the players is more of a number cruncher and another explicitly told me they wanted more combat.

Properly plan how they get into situations instead of just waiting for an opportunity that fits better.

Have a backup voice chat service.


That said, it wasn't all bad. They enjoyed their complete freedom, even if the city seemed sort of lacking of things to do. They also thought the place was a whole lot more fleshed out than it actually was because of some of my planning and my big list of NPC names to give them whenever they ask anyone.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

In some ways, it fits the pattern of how organized crime groups tend to form and establish territory in the real world, albeit with the official civil government actually recognizing them as a valid entity with permission to operate "outside the law" (not entirely dissimilar to the Mafia's offer to work for the US government during WWII, or implied Mafia/CIA ties afterwards).

I was about to say that what you were describing sounded an awful lot like the Five Families of the New York Mafia
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Darn. Next session is tomorrow and I'm having a lot of trouble figure out what's going to happen because I'm not sure how the players are going to react... I can see at least 5 different things happening, and I can sort of condense them more or less down to two different results with deviations based on what they do.

Two of those potential things they do will bring them into the wilderness and if they do that, I think that having them get lost for a bit would be neat, but I'm not really sure how to play that out.

Two others bring them back to the city they were at in the last session, where they will promptly get into a little bit of trouble due to a character backstory. (However, it'll help them towards their current goal a little bit as well.)

And the fifth will have them come across a note, but pretty much only if they plan on following it. I'm still unsure what exactly the note says, but I can basically send them in any direction I want if they end up finding the note. So I could just send them down whichever of the two paths I am able to develop the best, or maybe elsewhere completely.

I wonder if I should have just bought an adventure path and done that instead.
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Mario_VS_DK posted...

I wonder if I should have just bought an adventure path and done that instead.

Stick to your guns! It should work just fine. :-) Improvise, go with it, be mindful that unexpected things absolutely will happen.
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