Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 122: Fuck (David) Duke

(+) Yeah! (+)

xp1337 posted...

Metal_DK posted...

xp1337 posted...

Metal_DK posted...

And social media allowed the direction to finally happen

What? No, the direction was probably set back with the Southern Strategy.

If you want to argue social media accelerated it, fine. But that it's the root cause? lol no.

Its the root cause, at least for this current era. Social media is causing everyone to think everyone else is living this great life, because its a bunch of highlight reels. It was only a matter of time before social media caused racist shit since that seems to be the first thing we divide ourselves on

pretty sure the GOP's arc was set before social media existed so this seems unlikely

or did they predict all of this decades ago?

There is somehow a Trump tweet from 1968 about it
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Kinglicious posted...

Nazi is unfortunately vague today, with way too many people called it that don't fit the bill. Supporting murder here is honestly worse because that IS specific for everyone. We know what that means and anyone who supported that attack are pretty much done. You'll see people distance themselves, condemn it, and reject the people who made this sort of thing happen. Others will reevaluate what they want. That's the way things should work.

You realized someone got murdered.

You can't take that back. Any future soul searching by the bigots doesn't fix that.
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xp1337 posted...

i mean historically "good" doesn't always "win"

Well yeah. when you actively surpress speech the win becomes that much more difficult. But when you leave it open, seems to get good results.
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Kinglicious posted...

xp1337 posted...

i mean historically "good" doesn't always "win"

Well yeah. when you actively surpress speech the win becomes that much more difficult. But when you leave it open, seems to get good results.

Explain this in the context of the lead-up to WWII, if you would.
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xp1337 posted...

Metal_DK posted...

xp1337 posted...

Metal_DK posted...

And social media allowed the direction to finally happen

What? No, the direction was probably set back with the Southern Strategy.

If you want to argue social media accelerated it, fine. But that it's the root cause? lol no.

Its the root cause, at least for this current era. Social media is causing everyone to think everyone else is living this great life, because its a bunch of highlight reels. It was only a matter of time before social media caused racist shit since that seems to be the first thing we divide ourselves on

pretty sure the GOP's arc was set before social media existed so this seems unlikely

or did they predict all of this decades ago?

This isnt exactly the gop, they are just being silent about it, and giving half assed "apologies" because they vote gop. This is new. And its awful.
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xp1337 posted...

Kinglicious posted...

xp1337 posted...

i mean historically "good" doesn't always "win"

Well yeah. when you actively surpress speech the win becomes that much more difficult. But when you leave it open, seems to get good results.

Explain this in the context of the lead-up to WWII, if you would.

"Now we all hate Nazis so it was a good thing."
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Jakyl25 posted...

You can't take that back. Any future soul searching by the bigots doesn't fix that.

And I don't focus on that because it means speech got so difficult and hostile that this is an extremely negative result of that. Had they been rejected earlier that could've maybe changed. And I say rejected ob purpose, not denied. The former assumes you listened to them and found flaw with their argument, the latter assumes you just told them to shut up, prompting them to go underground, and making more extreme scenarios possible.

Any future things done won't change what happened here but will result in their developing into more reasonable people and likely rejection of the worst aspects (Storefront is so screwed).
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xp1337 posted...

Explain this in the context of the lead-up to WWII, if you would.

<_< Hitler actively surpressed speech.
Then Stalin doubled down and did it even worse.

Can we agree at least that both Nazi flags and USSR flags should be shunned? No swastika support, no gulag support. Both sides can present themselves to show their absurdities before being told to fuck off.
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Kinglicious posted...

The former assumes you listened to them and found flaw with their argument

Yeah we've been doing that since forever. It doesn't work. They still grow and they still kill, no matter how hard we defeat them in the "marketplace of ideas."
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Once they took power, sure. I meant in the context of how they achieved it to begin with.

I said lead-up for a reason!
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Jakyl25 posted...

Yeah we've been doing that since forever

We can't even have comedians on college campuses, jokes are now the cause of public outrage, and we literally had a guy fired for telling the biggest US company viewpoints outside the line, including conservative ones, are being too readily dismissed - and he got proven right. Meanwhile attacks on the opposite side are more readily dismissed or ignored.

No, we haven't. That's part of the problem.
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Like, I don't get how you can be so idealistic as to say "Stormfront is screwed."

You assume there are people who are flirting with those beliefs that are changed in some way by the murder today. I will bet anything that there are many more people on there celebrating the murder than condemning the ideas that led to it.

People that want to literally exterminate other races aren't shook when a car runs down their enemy.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Kinglicious posted...

Dark Young Link posted...

Wang...


There is absolutely no way to reasonably present the ideas these filth represent. They want to "get rid of" people who aren't them. This isn't a simple disagreement. This isn't a "both sides have a point" situation. These people are monsters, and whatever happens to them will be too good for them.

If that's how you feel then you should have no problem letting them present themselves as they're guaranteed to fail.

This is the point of difference I think. Many don't share that optimism, especially those who are targets of their oppression

Yep. To me just this seems like "Just ignore them and they'll go away". The same thing people told me when it came to bullying. Except they didn't go away.

It also looks a lot like appeasement to me. As in "Oh don't be so aggressive against them. Everything will turn out okay."

You're essentially saying "Let them continue their hateful actions", and hoping the country condemns them....

When that very same country has done awful things in the name of fear and spite.
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Kinglicious posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Yeah we've been doing that since forever

We can't even have comedians on college campuses, jokes are now the cause of public outrage, and we literally had a guy fired for telling the biggest US company viewpoints outside the line, including conservative ones, are being too readily dismissed - and he got proven right. Meanwhile attacks on the opposite side are more readily dismissed or ignored.

No, we haven't. That's part of the problem.

So you're looking at it more as the white supremacists are preying on the people who might be turned off by anti-conservative rhetoric leading to censorship.

I meant the ACTUAL ideas. We have been logically defeating the ACTUAL IDEAS behind bigotry for generations, yet it persists.
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Well yeah, lead up to WW2 had Hitler doing all that. Even before he became ruler of Germany he took power through "accidents" and forced his way into a dictatorship. Among the first things he did was kill speech.
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Kinglicious posted...

Well yeah, lead up to WW2 had Hitler doing all that. Even before he became ruler of Germany he took power through "accidents" and forced his way into a dictatorship. Among the first things he did was kill speech.

Hypothetically, what if he didn't? What if he still pursued his anti-Semitic agenda but allowed dissent?
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Kinglicious posted...

Dark Young Link posted...

Kinglicious posted...

they don't look like "Nazis" whatever that means, they look like people who support murder.

So in other words... Nazis.

Nazi is unfortunately vague today, with way too many people called it that don't fit the bill. Supporting murder here is honestly worse because that IS specific for everyone. We know what that means and anyone who supported that attack are pretty much done. You'll see people distance themselves, condemn it, and reject the people who made this sort of thing happen. Others will reevaluate what they want. That's the way things should work.

Except in this situation "Nazi" is being used correctly. Especially when they literally admit to it. This isn't "They disagree with me, so I'm going to call them names". This is literally "They are expressing the exact political viewpoints that the Nazis believed in, which involved murdering millions of people." There's no vagueness in this story.

As for "reevaluation". I don't buy it. I don't see the type of people who would walk down this path as people who are capable of change.
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Jakyl25 posted...

You assume there are people who are flirting with those beliefs that are changed in some way by the murder today. I will bet anything that there are many more people on there celebrating the murder than condemning the ideas that led to it.

I'm willing to believe that.
I'm also believing they'll lose people who aren't okay with what happened and that's what you want, a slow drip steadily making the irrelevant into obsolete and insignificant. Ideology doesn't die that fast, it goes bit by bit, with hopefully only the better ones staying around.
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So... either you're saying that pre-WWII Germany shows the "marketplace of ideas" was insufficient to put a stop to the rise of that ideology or that your supposed safeguard of free speech is not a strong enough safeguard to stop it since bad actors can subvert it.

And again there were tremendous actual costs in terms of lives lost in the process.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Hypothetically, what if he didn't? What if he still pursued his anti-Semitic agenda but allowed dissent?

I don't think he could've gained the power he did without being able to do that so I can't really answer your hypothetical. That's like asking hypothetically, what if this car ran without an engine. It can't.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Kinglicious posted...

Well yeah, lead up to WW2 had Hitler doing all that. Even before he became ruler of Germany he took power through "accidents" and forced his way into a dictatorship. Among the first things he did was kill speech.

Hypothetically, what if he didn't? What if he still pursued his anti-Semitic agenda but allowed dissent?

His army numbers would've been comparatively tragic. People would've blockaded access to the concentration camps. His leadership would've been basically untenable. Force was a requisite to suppress ideological fallacies.

You can't have people openly going around laughing at the fact you're not an Aryan while wanting to propagate their power above all and be taken seriously.
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Kinglicious posted...

I'm also believing they'll lose people who aren't okay with what happened

Why would those people have been Stormfront regulars? To "troll normies?"
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Maybe if the victim is white (I don't actually think we know) some might lament that it wasn't someone darker, but that's it
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Getting back to this:

Kinglicious posted...

We can't even have comedians on college campuses, jokes are now the cause of public outrage, and we literally had a guy fired for telling the biggest US company viewpoints outside the line, including conservative ones, are being too readily dismissed - and he got proven right. Meanwhile attacks on the opposite side are more readily dismissed or ignored.

Which of these, outside public colleges, is actually an infringement of free speech though?

As it always seems to me, these seem to boil down to not wanting freedom of speech, but freedom from consequence.

You have the right to tell a joke. Others have a right to be outraged and express it. Do they lose this right if it's held in such numbers that the joke-teller feels marginalized? If so, how do you determine this line?

Why is telling a joke within the marketplace of ideas, but the reaction to it is not?
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xp1337 posted...

So... either you're saying that pre-WWII Germany shows the "marketplace of ideas" was insufficient to put a stop to the rise of that ideology

To be fair the time period you're referring to for that would basically be their depression where the company was beyond broke, inflation ruined everyone, and the actual marketplace was non-existent. Or basically, an even shittier example of Venezuela today. Under those extreme circumstances the only ideas that could work are the ones that convince people of not dying or being miserable. I'll fully agree this played a factor.

xp1337 posted...

that your supposed safeguard of free speech is not a strong enough safeguard to stop it since bad actors can subvert it.

Bad actors subverting is always possible, in every system. Democracy is the hardest of those, amusingly. Dictatorship? Just tke over the place. That's what makes democracy the best of the worst systems and Free speech extremely important to it; system may not be the fastest but it limits everyone well. any actor, good or bad, who attempts to subvert this causes way more harm.
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Kinglicious posted...

To be fair the time period you're referring to for that would basically be their depression where the company was beyond broke, inflation ruined everyone, and the actual marketplace was non-existent. Or basically, an even shittier example of Venezuela today. Under those extreme circumstances the only ideas that could work are the ones that convince people of not dying or being miserable. I'll fully agree this played a factor.

there's not really a "to be fair" here

I was explicitly looking to demonstrate an instance where "good" didn't "win"

Nothing happens in a vacuum, other factors are always going to be present.
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xp1337 posted...

Which of these, outside public colleges, is actually an infringement of free speech though?

Those aren't really meant as examples of infringing free speech, they're examples of how the continued rejection of various ideas push people to worse places over time. You don't get rid of it with no platforming, firing, or silence. You put sunlight on it.
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https://twitter.com/VaNationalGuard/status/896402001067683841
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xp1337 posted...

I was explicitly looking to demonstrate an instance where "good" didn't "win"

That's fine, though WW2 Germany isn't really it. Hitler clearly understood that he had to limit people to gain control. Stalin did the same. Mao did the same. And I'm sure the further back you go, all the worst regimes come from a heavy restriction of ideas or practices.
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Kinglicious posted...

Those aren't really meant as examples of infringing free speech, they're examples of how the continued rejection of various ideas push people to worse places over time. You don't get rid of it with no platforming, firing, or silence. You put sunlight on it.

In those cases sunlight has been placed on it. They've become fairly big stories. I'd argue that the "rejection" has followed the sunlight. Once exposed to light, the response has been to disassociate with and reject those views.
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Kinglicious posted...

Those aren't really meant as examples of infringing free speech, they're examples of how the continued rejection of various ideas push people to worse places over time. You don't get rid of it with no platforming, firing, or silence. You put sunlight on it.

Again, this is so much easier to say if you aren't a target of the bad ideas

Trans people were the butt of jokes in mainstream media and society in general for decades, and it made their lives worse for it.

Now people protest comics that use transphobic humor, because the activism made people aware of their plight.

Ignoring it and allowing it to fester solved nothing. Getting out there and running transphobia out of town is making progress.
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but they gained power in the first place augh

You're basically telling one side to just sit there and let them do what they want "because they'll fail" even when historically you know they've seized power before.
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MenuWars posted...

https://twitter.com/VaNationalGuard/status/896402001067683841

I'm not hopeful unless the mayor or police step in and confirm police patrols.
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First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.



Sitting on the sidelines accomplishes nothing.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Kinglicious posted...

Those aren't really meant as examples of infringing free speech, they're examples of how the continued rejection of various ideas push people to worse places over time. You don't get rid of it with no platforming, firing, or silence. You put sunlight on it.

Again, this is so much easier to say if you aren't a target of the bad ideas

Trans people were the butt of jokes in mainstream media and society in general for decades, and it made their lives worse for it.

Now people protest comics that use transphobic humor, because the activism made people aware of their plight.

Ignoring it and allowing it to fester solved nothing. Getting out there and running transphobia out of town is making progress.

This is only true to a point. I agree with protesting the things you are against, but when you seek to imply the intent of a creator and suppress their work because it goes against your own perceived ideals, you become the enemy also.

We're still not mature enough as a species to say okay this exists and I don't agree with it, without affixing insults to it, or sweeping generalisations, and various other shit. We bloody should be mature enough we've seen enough crap to know better, but everyone tends to go into an argument with a perceived agenda, or an emotive response ready.

If we continue down this path, it doesn't matter who wins we'll be living in a suppressed, culturally stagnant echo chamber. This is why despite agreeing with a lot of the lefts viewpoints I still argue with them over the semantics because they're important, with no opposition you leave people feeling emboldened in what they're saying, and give them a sense of righteousness.

Which is, full circle, exactly why Trump needs to tell these neo nazi fuckwits that they're unwanted and a massive embarrassment to their country.
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Kinglicious posted...

MenuWars posted...

https://twitter.com/VaNationalGuard/status/896402001067683841

I'm not hopeful unless the mayor or police step in and confirm police patrols.

You're missing the point.
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Driver is confirmed to have been there for the rally.
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Our advances in race relations in this country didn't come from just letting racists run wild with bad ideas and people just over time saw how awful they were.

There was a reason owning slaves was fashionable and then later became unfashionable, and it wasn't because the abolitionists sat back and let slaveowners hang themselves on their ideas
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This is the day i finally realized wang really is just that oblivious to the extent to which he us allying and enabling literal nazis fascists and white supremacists in the name of a super simplified free speech ideal.

Wow.
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I realize who the actual posters are, and that they share no ideology besides childish nihilism, but the posts about the rally/murder on /b/ tonight are overwhelmingly pro-murder
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Jakyl25 posted...

I realize who the actual posters are, and that they share no ideology besides childish nihilism, but the posts about the rally/murder on /b/ tonight are overwhelmingly pro-murder

... I'm not entirely sure what you expected from /b/?
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I wouldn't go to those hell holes anyway.These places are grass routes contrarian troll boards, as you say they stand for nothing but provoking reactions (provocatism isn't a word???) it's like putting your face in a pool full of hungry piranhas and being surprised when you're eaten.
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SupremeZero posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

I realize who the actual posters are, and that they share no ideology besides childish nihilism, but the posts about the rally/murder on /b/ tonight are overwhelmingly pro-murder

... I'm not entirely sure what you expected from /b/?

I didn't have the guts to go to Stormfront itself, but I wanted a data point towards Wang's theory that actual murder might change the minds of some people toying with the idea of white supremacy
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If you're a provoker what do you practise? provocation doesn't feel right.
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Jakyl25 posted...

SupremeZero posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

I realize who the actual posters are, and that they share no ideology besides childish nihilism, but the posts about the rally/murder on /b/ tonight are overwhelmingly pro-murder

... I'm not entirely sure what you expected from /b/?

I didn't have the guts to go to Stormfront itself, but I wanted a data point towards Wang's theory that actual murder might change the minds of some people toying with the idea of white supremacy

oh
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MenuWars posted...

If you're a provoker what do you practise? provocation doesn't feel right.

I think it is right though. Don't quote me.
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MenuWars posted...

If you're a provoker what do you practise? provocation doesn't feel right.

Trolling.
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Provoker isn't right though I don't think.

"Provocateur"
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Why not just call them assholes?
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