Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 122: Fuck (David) Duke

(+) Yeah! (+)

Also on a sidenote?

A fucking brony calling themselves a Nazi? Holy shit what the actual fuck? That's like a black person calling himself a Klan member.


When you side with what is the very antithesis of your existence, there's nothing that can be done for you.


Nazis sure didn't "Love and Tolerate" anyone back in the day.
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Kinglicious posted...

Eddv posted...

Hell if you read an editorial on Breitbart or Stormfront and go "yeah you know that makes sense" youre probably a nazi.

Its not complicated.

Its just fucking not.

You're right that this isn't complicated, it's just you being wrong.

"Gosh we cant call someone a Nazi when they might just be a racist that would be wrong"
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https://twitter.com/gogreen18/status/896446992091553792

condemning nazis is basically the same as sympathizing w them


Laci Green and Wang must subscribe to the same newsletter.
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Pretty sure the minimal semantics that existed here have been gone over and agreed upon, I've no idea why wang is still on this. A Nazi, is a nazi, is a nazi.

There is no grey area where Nazi's are "good" unless you're talking about the party manifesto BEFORE they got into power, which is entirely irrelevant when that's absolutely not what they gave any shits about, it was just rhetoric.

I could liken it to why I won't align with feminists because of some of hatred I've seen preached, and then be countered by well they're not real feminists. But I feel like that's just false equivalency today, until they actively try to murder all men, there's no actual comparison.

Stop trying to defend them or expunge them of any wrong doing, I've not seen a single positive thing about that rally, it was a based on a statue being taken down of a guy that fought to keep slavery. He may have done and stood for a lot more than that. I don't give a fuck, the point is just accept we've moved past holding anyone with those regards in any form of esteem. At all.

Fuck the statue, fuck the nazis of any description and fuck our blood our soil when you're sitting in a country you stole from the fucking natives. Some things... are just black and white and this is one of em. Even if he has mental issues, even if he's disenfranchised, he still committed a terrorist act for Nazis.

I don't get why this needs to be complicated. Where's the fucking nuance?
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...

The fuck Laci? o.o


Please tell me that's somehow monstrously out of context because holy shit.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/gogreen18/status/896446992091553792

condemning nazis is basically the same as sympathizing w them


Laci Green and Wang must subscribe to the same newsletter.

Wait, did aliens abduct her or something? I found her to be a dramatic whinger so I noped out years ago. But that's not a comment I'd expect.
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Still working on the earlier stuff...

Dark Young Link posted...

What exactly do you think we could learn from literal supremacists and Nazis(Again, waving the Nazi flag)?

Why is it okay for these groups to encourage hate, to want to go back to a time where they could legally treat other people like shit? Back to a time where one side tried to exterminate the other side off the face of the planet?

I do think the questions asked help a bit, though understanding how people radicalized is pretty big. It's "okay" for them to encourage hate because they should have the right to do so - everyone should. That's without exception. Once you make a rule you've opened the door to always being able to make another. Just let them talk, it's just words. If they make a fool of themselves with that or with symbols, perfect. But I think I said a lot of this stuff earlier already?

Dark Young Link posted...

...Yet we have to be polite? We have to give them a chance to speak their mind? That we have to stand there and do nothing while they cause more deaths?

We don't have to be polite, no. Where'd you get that impression? There's a lot of room between politeness and rejection.
Give them a chance to speak - yes, absolutely.
Stand there and do nothing - no. Especially if somebody's become violent but no, I'm not saying you should become a doormat. Letting somebody speak without trying to shut them down isn't being "polite" or "doing nothing," it's just giving them rope. Counter if you want, protest if you want (though like I said earlier, this one was dumb to protest), that's fine.
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Like I literally can't even be mad right now. I'm too utterly confused at the words she typed.

Like, it doesn't appear she's been hacked. Nor can I detect any sarcasm.


Literally wtf Laci?
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Kinglicious posted...

Letting somebody speak without trying to shut them down isn't being "polite" or "doing nothing," it's just giving them rope.

Historically, rope they used to hang other people, but yes.
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Kenri posted...

Kinglicious posted...

Letting somebody speak without trying to shut them down isn't being "polite" or "doing nothing," it's just giving them rope.

Historically, rope they used to hang other people, but yes.

The only metaphor that matters.
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*reads through every Wang post*


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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/gogreen18/status/896446992091553792

condemning nazis is basically the same as sympathizing w them


Laci Green and Wang must subscribe to the same newsletter.

twitter makes it look like this in response to a tweet that no longer exists, so maybe there is some sarcastic context we're not getting. Her other tweets arguing with Mike Cernovich don't line up with this.
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The fact that Wang sympathizes with these people because they used to be his GG buddies is truly depressing.

Nazis are no longer people. They shouldn't even have a right to exist anymore, much less a voice to be heard.
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Kinglicious posted...

I do think the questions asked help a bit, though understanding how people radicalized is pretty big. It's "okay" for them to encourage hate because they should have the right to do so - everyone should. That's without exception. Once you make a rule you've opened the door to always being able to make another. Just let them talk, it's just words. If they make a fool of themselves with that or with symbols, perfect. But I think I said a lot of this stuff earlier already?

Nah. Gonna have to strongly disagree with you on that one. Oh sure understanding how it happened I get wanting to know, I'm a curious type myself. But no, it's not "okay" for them to encourage hate. There is no "right" to spread hate like that. There is no "right" to encourage the literal genocide of a group of people. You can complain about "slippery slope" all you want, but you're straddling the other side of that with this appeasement nonsense.

They've already "made fools" of themselves. That doesn't do a damn thing. Being exposed as a fool doesn't stop you from killing people, directly or otherwise.

But then, let's look at your argument for a moment. "Just let them talk." "It's just words.".

Then why do you care so much about the right "getting shit on" around here? The users here are just saying words. Why not let them in peace?



Kinglicious posted...

We don't have to be polite, no. Where'd you get that impression?

biggest concern i've got isn't in cops but in the fact that we've now got two opposing sides that have been having skirmishes with each other and one got a very clear victory last night. this entire thing was bait, that's the frustrating part. any and every opposition should've just let them do their thing; you let them rally and and let them hang themselves with their own rope. if you do the whole "let me counterprotest!" gig you're just giving them a win because it'll be framed as either ineffective or worse, beat down commie scum.

Right here. Saying that people shouldn't have protested against these assholes, and just "let them do their thing".

They came with weapons from the very start. They were never planning on "just talking". If someone walks up to you with a weapon, they don't want to "just talk". Not to mention, we are giving them a chance to speak. We're just calling them out for being assholes. They have absolutely no right to be treated politely, absolutely no right to not be criticized, absolutely no right to get to riot on the streets without retaliation. Not a single one of us has that right.


If this was just a random group being stupid? I wouldn't care as much. If it was a group of people protesting something stupid that didn't really effect anyone? Then I'd be fine with "giving them rope". But when the message is the message they're sending? No. You don't ignore that. You don't tolerate that. You stomp it into the ground and never let it grow.

If they don't like it? Fuck them.
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LapisLazuli posted...

Nazis are no longer people. They shouldn't even have a right to exist anymore, much less a voice to be heard.

*Nods*

We ignored them before. Never again.
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Dark Young Link posted...

Economy doesn't dictate moral character. I'm broke as fuck, I don't want to hurt people because of it. I don't see how a world war would change that.

As for what make a modern Nazi? I'd say someone who shares the beliefs as the Nazis as the past. The actual core beliefs, not some minor unrelated stuff like "Oh Hitler liked animals so if you like animals, blah blah deflection". Their sexual orientation, color, etc are irrelevant. It's their hate that makes me reject them utterly.

I see no need to understand such people.

Economy of Germany between WW1 and WW2 was a big factor behind Hitler's ride to power. It's easy to talk a game of morality when you're broke but that went beyond it. We're talking levels of a broken economy on par of current Venezuela, not "barely paying my rent." Different viewpoints also form between people who just went through something crazy like a world war and people who just haven't had a single real war in their lives.

But okay, you said core beliefs. Like what? I assume we auto include anti semitism and white supremacy at an extreme level. Anything on the authoritarian viewpoints or secret police? The modern day one would have to be incredibly different, so I agree with bringing it down to the core but it's not totally applicable.

Dark Young Link posted...

A fucking brony calling themselves a Nazi? Holy shit what the actual fuck? That's like a black person calling himself a Klan member.

It's the same with the other ones too. Like a couple topics ago we talked about alt furry - some self declared Nazi in there. It's just as cringy as seeing people with flags of the gulag as most of those also would've been shot. None of that makes sense so why is it a thing?

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Laci Green and Wang must subscribe to the same newsletter.

You aren't really wrong.
She's been excommunicated from various social justice for a few months now, it happened when she said she wanted to listen to what the other side had to say.

No seriously, that was it. She was surprised at how welcoming people were of her, even the ones who argued with her a lot, and continued. Soon after she started dating Chris Raygun and that really pissed the rest off. Would recommend her Dave Rubin interview if you're curious on where she's at these days.

Not sure what she means there but I assume there's other tweets.
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This is really sad:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mother-charlottesville-suspect-knew-rallyi-thought-trump/story?id=49185691

I can't imagine being in that situation of suddenly finding out that your kid is a piece of shit white supremacist who just murdered someone.
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

twitter makes it look like this in response to a tweet that no longer exists, so maybe there is some sarcastic context we're not getting. Her other tweets arguing with Mike Cernovich don't line up with this.

Seriously. I'm looking at her previous tweets and it just makes this particular tweet look even more awkward. It's so out of left field that it's hard to believe that there isn't more to it.
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MenuWars posted...

Pretty sure the minimal semantics that existed here have been gone over and agreed upon, I've no idea why wang is still on this. A Nazi, is a nazi, is a nazi.

It's semantics only until we play the "everyone I don't like is a Nazi." Which is an ongoing problem and will likely worsen.

MenuWars posted...

Stop trying to defend them or expunge them of any wrong doing

What defense, where? Seriously, saying "he's not known to be a Nazi so it's not right to call him that" isn't a defense, it's a fact. Who am I expunging of wrongdoing?

Suprak the Stud posted...

*reads through every Wang post*

What about 'em?
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He was 20.

This is what the right has caused a 20 year old to do.

Can't even drink yet and he'd been brainwashed to drive his car into a crowd but these worthless scum piles.

Round up the white supremecist fucks and incarcerate all if them. They can do no good for society or humanity.
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Kinglicious posted...

Economy of Germany between WW1 and WW2 was a big factor behind Hitler's ride to power. It's easy to talk a game of morality when you're broke but that went beyond it. We're talking levels of a broken economy on par of current Venezuela, not "barely paying my rent." Different viewpoints also form between people who just went through something crazy like a world war and people who just haven't had a single real war in their lives.

But okay, you said core beliefs. Like what? I assume we auto include anti semitism and white supremacy at an extreme level. Anything on the authoritarian viewpoints or secret police? The modern day one would have to be incredibly different, so I agree with bringing it down to the core but it's not totally applicable.

You're talking homeless? I understand being homeless would make you desperate, but genocidal? It still doesn't justify their actions. And this is coming from someone who has questioned multiple times if he's even going to be alive in the near future, or if there's any conceivable way to get out of the situation they're in. Melodramatic perhaps.

The police are already a concern today. Mainly for the lack of accountability, and defending those who need to be held accountable(aka, Blue Wall of Silence), among other issues.

As for authoritarian viewpoints? What do you mean for example?




Kinglicious posted...

It's the same with the other ones too. Like a couple topics ago we talked about alt furry - some self declared Nazi in there. It's just as cringy as seeing people with flags of the gulag as most of those also would've been shot. None of that makes sense so why is it a thing?

Don't know. It ultimately doesn't matter. They're siding with monsters, that's the only thing that counts.
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I misread what Lapis typed and thought he said "Incinerate all of them", and was like like. o.o

But yeah, I'd be calling for the arrest of every single person involved in this shitshow.

We can "let them talk" in a jail cell.
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

Her other tweets arguing with Mike Cernovich don't line up with this.

Cernovich says, in CONSECUTIVE TWEETS,

Silencing free speech caused #Charlottesville. Once people stop talking they get violent, human nature.

The left has been violent for years. You must be new to what is happening.

And doesn't see the MASSIVE bit of enlightenment that just flew over his head
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Dark Young Link posted...

There is no "right" to spread hate like that. There is no "right" to encourage the literal genocide of a group of people.

As long as it's speech, and only speech, they absolutely do. This will definitely be a point of disagreement between us.

Dark Young Link posted...

Then why do you care so much about the right "getting shit on" around here? The users here are just saying words. Why not let them in peace?

I don't like it when anyone is wrongfully accused or shit on, full stop. So I comment on and call the BS when I see it. You're totally able to do the same, it's speech vs. speech. Why would I be against what I'm advocating for?

Like you're over here agreeing that they aren't human, othering them, that they should jailed.

For what?
Saying things? Are you advocating for thought crime here? Because that's the only way to do what you're asking for and that's WAY more dangerous. Especially when you've dehumanized the people you're talking about. That's terrifying and incredibly immoral. Those ideas will only lead to direct conflict, in this case? Nazis vs. Commies. Again.

Dark Young Link posted...

Right here. Saying that people shouldn't have protested against these assholes, and just "let them do their thing".

.... oh, you don't know what this thing was. Yeah, they shouldn't have protested here because this was always bait. Nothing to do with being a doormat, everything to do with playing by your opponent's rules. It was entirely unnecessary and helps them. Or did I guess, the murder ruined everything there completely.
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Dark Young Link posted...

You're talking homeless? I understand being homeless would make you desperate, but genocidal?

Okay, do you know what's going on in Venezuela right now?

Homelessness is the "okay" result. Try no food, medicine, and inflation to the tune of several hundred percent. Jobs exist but they're all horrible. That was German shortly after, we fucked them over. A scapegoat for all their suffering was being looked for and it was the Jews. Add in some anti commie propaganda as you tie it to them and boom. If you really want a mind fuck, read Hitler's book or listen to his speeches. Not everything said is wrong or even sounds bad, some of his talking points are ironically things modern progressives agree with. I mean I'm not sure where we're going with this conversation but i do agree that it's an interesting time period.

Dark Young Link posted...

The police are already a concern today. Mainly for the lack of accountability, and defending those who need to be held accountable(aka, Blue Wall of Silence), among other issues.

Oh this is not the secret police at all.
But I'll take a step back - I assume your definition of Nazi is extreme anti semitism and extreme white supremacists views. Is there anything else you can think of?
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Oh hey I think I caught up.
Probably among the nicer back and forth I've had in here too. Appreciate that.
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Kinglicious posted...

As long as it's speech, and only speech, they absolutely do. This will definitely be a point of disagreement between us.

Well someone died, so it's not "just speech". And when you're trying to get other people killed, it's not "just speech". I can't imagine you'd be this understanding if it was you in the crosshairs.

Kinglicious posted...

I don't like it when anyone is wrongfully accused or shit on, full stop.

You seem perfectly fine with Jews being shat on. You're saying they shouldn't protest people who are calling for their deaths. Because that wouldn't be nice.

Kinglicious posted...

Like you're over here agreeing that they aren't human, othering them, that they should jailed.

For what?
Saying things? Are you advocating for thought crime here? Because that's the only way to do what you're asking for and that's WAY more dangerous. Especially when you've dehumanized the people you're talking about. That's terrifying and incredibly immoral. Those ideas will only lead to direct conflict, in this case? Nazis vs. Commies. Again.

Dehumanizing people is bad? My my! It's almost like I'm treating them with the disdain they treat other people! Except I'm not encouraging genocide. Why is it "terrifying" when I call human garbage just that? You seem fine with them saying hateful things. As for "thought crime"? Nah. They're saying this shit out in the open.

And no, it's not immoral to be against these "people". What's immoral is to stand by and try to justify them. To try to make excuses. To try to get actual fucking human beings to "play nice" with them. Direct conflict? You mean like when they used to lynch people for being black? Or Jewish? Or gay?


And Commies? The hell does any of this have to do with commies?


Kinglicious posted...

.... oh, you don't know what this thing was. Yeah, they shouldn't have protested here because this was always bait. Nothing to do with being a doormat, everything to do with playing by your opponent's rules. It was entirely unnecessary and helps them. Or did I guess, the murder ruined everything there completely.

I'm honestly suspecting that you're baiting me, if anything else. How was this riot "bait"? You're saying they only pretended to commit a crime over a statue in order to look good when someone would oppose their crime? And by oppose I mean sing songs and make peaceful chants until someone on their side decided to take things too far. Yeah, they sure got "baited" by standing up for human rights.

They should have just stuck their heads in the sand and let them keep rioting. After all, it's not our problem.


Well, not your problem anyway.
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Kinglicious posted...

It's "okay" for them to encourage hate because they should have the right to do so - everyone should. That's without exception. Once you make a rule you've opened the door to always being able to make another.

But that's exactly what you're doing.

As I understand it, you're afraid that
Rule: "Outlaw hate speech"
Leads to
Rule: "Outlaw speech the majority doesn't like"
Leads to
Rule: "Outlaw speech the government doesn't like."

Whereas progressives like me are afraid that
Rule: "Hate speech must be allowed."
Leads to
Rule: "Discrimination must be allowed"
Leads to
Rule: "Segregation must be enforced."

Yet for some reason you seem to be drawing the line at words and saying that's where the line has to be, without acknowledging that you can draw any line anywhere.

I want to draw the one that doesn't make groups have to live in fear that the ideas of their would-be oppressors are supported, or at least tolerated, by the masses.
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Kinglicious posted...

Okay, do you know what's going on in Venezuela right now?

Homelessness is the "okay" result. Try no food, medicine, and inflation to the tune of several hundred percent. Jobs exist but they're all horrible. That was German shortly after, we fucked them over. A scapegoat for all their suffering was being looked for and it was the Jews. Add in some anti commie propaganda as you tie it to them and boom. If you really want a mind fuck, read Hitler's book or listen to his speeches. Not everything said is wrong or even sounds bad, some of his talking points are ironically things modern progressives agree with. I mean I'm not sure where we're going with this conversation but i do agree that it's an interesting time period.

I understand there are people living a shit life. But again, that doesn't make what the Nazis did "okay". You can try to make an argument for "This is why X happened" but there is no justification for it. If you're trying to suggest that this rioting is a "cry for help"... that's quite a stretch to put it nicely. Especially since they're rioting over a statue rather than anything that has a tangible effect on their life like food, jobs, etc.


Kinglicious posted...

Oh this is not the secret police at all.
But I'll take a step back - I assume your definition of Nazi is extreme anti semitism and extreme white supremacists views. Is there anything else you can think of?

The very definition of evil? The end result of xenophobia? What happens when allow a group to commit atrocity after atrocity because it's "not my problem"?

Or are you suggesting there's a "Definition two" right now? Like how black people "took back" the N word or whatever? Because I can tell you right now I find both to be absolutely stupid.

(As an aside? Why the fuck would anyone want to "take back" a racial slur? Let the people who made it keep it. It's their eternal shame.)
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The idea that we shouldn't make good rules because it makes it easier to make bad rules is just absurd to me.
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Wang, freedom of speech is not an absolute freedom and never has been. You do not have the freedom to violate the rights of another and you can do that through speech. It's why there are laws against libel, for instance. The same libel laws Trump wanted to broaden, funnily enough.

This also applies to racial hatred in many countries. You do not have the right to incite racial hatred, which is what this is. The US has a massive blind spot in this area. This being despite the fact that there are incitement laws in the US such as those against inciting riots.
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Lightning Strikes posted...

Wang, freedom of speech is not an absolute freedom and never has been. You do not have the freedom to violate the rights of another and you can do that through speech. It's why there are laws against libel, for instance.

Yep.

Imagine, for example, someone exposed his real life info to everyone. Family, friends, current and potential employers and told them that he was a serial rapist that likes to prey on children. Effectively ruining his life.

Is that "freedom of speech"? Should that be ignored because they have a "right" to say such things? No absolutely not.
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I'm just going to say it: the reason the US does not have nationwide racial hatred laws is because racism is seen as socially acceptable in large parts of the country thanks to history. It's not because of some great love of liberties. I'm happy to be proven wrong on this!

It absolutely does my head in to see the American right try to claim that they defend free speech.
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Dark Young Link posted...

Well someone died, so it's not "just speech". And when you're trying to get other people killed, it's not "just speech".

Okay, so now we're making the jump from ideas to the event. Yeah, the guy crossed a line and will be punished for it. What does that mean for the guy unrelated who's also part of the rally? He committed no crime, what happens to him?

Dark Young Link posted...

You seem perfectly fine with Jews being shat on.

Where did you get that one? I don't have to like something to agree it should be allowed. Seriously, this is just another version of things not said being added in.

Dark Young Link posted...

Why is it "terrifying" when I call human garbage just that?

What's terrifying is the mindset you're putting out.
They're not people, they should be in jail.

That mindset has never led to good things. It's pretty similar to some Nazi ideology, for some irony.

Dark Young Link posted...

What's immoral is to stand by and try to justify them. To try to make excuses. To try to get actual fucking human beings to "play nice" with them.

Where'd I do that?
What excuse did i make?
Where did I say "play nice"

Seriously, stop inserting things I never said.

Jakyl25 posted...

As I understand it, you're afraid that
Rule: "Outlaw hate speech"
Leads to
Rule: "Outlaw speech the majority doesn't like"

There's also compelled speed issues too, not just banning it. I draw the line at words because they're just that: words. No actions on anybody's end, pretty easy ground floor.

Dark Young Link posted...

But again, that doesn't make what the Nazis did "okay". You can try to make an argument for "This is why X happened" but

That would not be what's being said.
Go back a few posts.
You said to look into the 1930s-40s.
I told you the times and situations are very different, gave you an example with the shit economy and lifestyle.

How is explaining this a defense? It's what you basically asked for!

Dark Young Link posted...

The very definition of evil? The end result of xenophobia? What happens when allow a group to commit atrocity after atrocity because it's "not my problem"?

...so you don't know.
Because nothing here is specific. You mention Nazi core values, okay. Which ones. What I'm getting is you don't actually know them.
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Jakyl25 posted...

The idea that we shouldn't make good rules

Limiting speech is not a good rule, no.
Lightning Strikes posted...

Wang, freedom of speech is not an absolute freedom and never has been.

And that's not being argued, so okay? Would say the US mostly has it right. Hell, did in the last topic.

Lightning Strikes posted...

You do not have the right to incite racial hatred, which is what this is. The US has a massive blind spot in this area.

It's not a blind spot, it's by design. You absolutely have a right to say hateful things, racial or otherwise. Or is your distinction incitement?

Lightning Strikes posted...

It's not because of some great love of liberties. I'm happy to be proven wrong on this!

Free speech has been a core tenant of the US for centuries and the people who made it clearly something to be protected against were super big fans of liberty.

And yes, it is funny when a lot of the right speaks to free speech values. That becomes disappointing when you realize it's because a lot of the left are fighting against it.
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Kinglicious posted...

There's also compelled speed issues too, not just banning it. I draw the line at words because they're just that: words. No actions on anybody's end, pretty easy ground floor.

Speaking is an action though? It sounds like thoughts would be a better ground floor.
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Kinglicious posted...

Okay, so now we're making the jump from ideas to the event. Yeah, the guy crossed a line and will be punished for it. What does that mean for the guy unrelated who's also part of the rally? He committed no crime, what happens to him?

Well he's part of the riot, so he's part of a crime I'd say. And again, you don't bring weapons to a rally if you're just planing to talk things out.


Kinglicious posted...

Where did you get that one? I don't have to like something to agree it should be allowed. Seriously, this is just another version of things not said being added in.

Didn't you just say that calling for genocide should be permitted? So long as it's "just words"? Well that's the start of how shit like that happens. "Just words". Which are all directed towards a certain group of people. Their rights seem inconsequential from your behavior.

Kinglicious posted...

What's terrifying is the mindset you're putting out.
They're not people, they should be in jail.

That mindset has never led to good things. It's pretty similar to some Nazi ideology, for some irony.

Nah Wang, why are you scared? They're "just words", after all. I'm not actually doing anything, so it's perfectly fine if I say oh... these white supremacists should be thrown in jail and not be given a trail. Because they're just words.


Though I find it very interesting you have that sort of reaction towards me... yet seem to have no issue with a large group of people saying and advocating far worse. So very interesting.
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Kinglicious posted...

Where'd I do that?
What excuse did i make?
Where did I say "play nice"

Seriously, stop inserting things I never said.

You're implying them pretty strongly. Basically going "Well guys we have to let them do this because "Freedom of Speech" even though nothing about Freedom of Speech says you have to give anyone a platform, or respect what they're saying.

Kinglicious posted...

That would not be what's being said.
Go back a few posts.
You said to look into the 1930s-40s.
I told you the times and situations are very different, gave you an example with the shit economy and lifestyle.

How is explaining this a defense? It's what you basically asked for!

...Isn't your statement essentially "They're doing this because their life is hard?" Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe I'm misremembering what exactly you've said at this time of day.

Kinglicious posted...

...so you don't know.
Because nothing here is specific. You mention Nazi core values, okay. Which ones. What I'm getting is you don't actually know them.

"Ayran purity"? Getting rid of "lesser races"?

Feel free to tell me if I'm missing the mark here. We certainly won't get anywhere if you won't get to the point you're trying to make here.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Turns out this actually WAS a white supremacist rally, so I owe this topic an apology.

Whoa holy crap. Am I really seeing this?

Ulti apologizing. Amazing.

Anyway, what's up @Corrik. Long time no interaction. Have you been behaving lately. :P
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It's absolutely a blind spot by design. And that design was for nothing good.

There are countries which are regularly assessed as more free societies than the US with free speech that still make inciting hatred illegal. This is a good thing and is to ensure liberty, not take it away.

And bear in mind: whether you set the line at incitement or just hate speech, what was being said was absolutely incitement. It blows my mind that something like this rally can happen in a developed country and be totally legal.

By the way I specified the American right because the "left" you mention isn't left wing or even especially liberal at all.
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Kinglicious posted...

Take Nick Spencer - not a Nazi, though a white nationalist. Not sure if he's also a white supremacist, is totally a troll. Pretty much every group listed has also rejected him because they know he's poison too. None of this is a defense of him, it's a bio, yet simply going "Nick Spencer isn't a Nazi" will have people going "why are you defending him," which is frustratingly dumb. I'm pretty aware of most of these bios or can quickly gather info.

assuming you're talking about richard spencer (nick spencer is the guy who wrote the "captain america is a nazi" story - we've barely discussed him here), this never happened here. there were several people here accusing spencer of being a nazi, you argued against this because "spencer said he wasn't one," but after that nobody asked "why you were defending him" or got mad at you for saying that in any way. so uh yeah, perhaps you had an argument about this elsewhere and you're thinking of that, but this isn't a good example of the regulars in this topic "unfairly shitting on the alt-right."
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Eddv posted...

This is the day i finally realized wang really is just that oblivious to the extent to which he us allying and enabling literal nazis fascists and white supremacists in the name of a super simplified free speech ideal.

Wow.

The sad part is that I want to give him more credit than this, but doing that moves him into sympathizer territory which is an even worse look <_<
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Why is topic on the front page?

Stirring up the pot about what happened in North Carolina or Virginia or whatever.

There's nothing any of you can do about it.

yeah thanks preston we're going to stop with these topics now.

122 topics good run.
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Kenri posted...

Kinglicious posted...

There's also compelled speed issues too, not just banning it. I draw the line at words because they're just that: words. No actions on anybody's end, pretty easy ground floor.

Speaking is an action though? It sounds like thoughts would be a better ground floor.

Agreed
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Wang you can bitch about how our dehuminization of this worthless gutter sludge is "scary" from yoir desk at home, we're not the ones who fucking killed someone. We didn't.bring weapons to a rally with the intent of causing injury from the get go. They lost their right to speech as soon as that happened, regardless of later actions.

Nazis. Aren't. People.
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Sorry, man, but they are, and that's why we need to seriously address the spread of their ideas
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Yes this is the one aspect I will somewhat agree with Wang on - they are people, and they can be changed. Better education, a more positive and inclusive message, and tougher (or any) laws on racial hatred are the way to acheive this.

That's where the agreement stops since I think it's time to recognise that Wang's rhetoric is by far the most dangerous I have seen in these topics. He is trying to justify and normalise Nazism, far-right extremism and white supremacy by putting a reasonable face on it. Saying that, oh, they weren't technically Nazis or that they should have the right to call for genocide and murder. That is extremely worrying and I urge him to look in the mirror, realise what he might enable, and stop.

And the same goes for Trump, the jammy coward.
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i don't have a problem with saying a white nationalist is "not technically a nazi." they're not the same thing and pointing out the difference is fine. obviously this argument shouldn't be used as a defense of white nationalists, though.

also, wang may be too lenient in taking the words of white nationalists/alt right people/etc. at face value. like i said, he declared that spencer isn't a nazi because "he said he isn't one." uh... ok? does that automatically close the case? bannon once said he's a leninist - should we run with that too and ignore everything else he's said and done? i'm not saying spencer IS a nazi, but i'd like to see some more compelling evidence than "he said he isn't a nazi once" before i'm 100% convinced he ISN'T one.
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like I said, Wang is too far gone to ever stop defending nazis / white nationalists / the alt-right / gators.