Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 129: Harvey Wallbuilder

(+) Yeah! (+)

I don't think the founders saw Trump coming

In fairness, one of their anti-Trump measures (the Electoral College) has, over the intervening centuries, been neutered but never actually put down.
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(Unrelated to Trump

Reading further, Hamilton entertains both sides of the argument that, in the singular case of the President pardoning someone for Treason, that it should also require legislative approval just in case the President is complicit. He successfully argues, to me at least, that it is much more likely to arise that a President may need to pardon someone convicted of treason ASAP in order to quell conflict. A peace offering situation, essentially, to save lives from being lost.

It never ceases to amaze me how wise most of the founders were.
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(Also I bet anyone $200 that Trump couldn't tell you what the Federalist Papers are)
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Jakyl25 posted...

(Also I bet anyone $200 that Trump couldn't tell you what the Federalist Papers are)

"They dig up the federalists and they clean them."
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"Alexander Hamilton is an example of somebody who's done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more, I notice."
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Jakyl25 posted...

and is being recognized more and more, I notice

I mean, I guess this part is kind of true about Hamilton...!
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Mayor of Phoenix's response:
https://twitter.com/ABC/status/901247420050419712
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I miss when twitter defaulted to egg avatars
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http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/a-phony-murder-plot-against-joe-arpaio-winds-up-costing-taxpayers-11-million-6629798

God, every article I read about this piece of shit makes me angrier
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https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2017/08/25/alex-jones-suggests-michelle-obama-has-penis-and-may-have-murdered-joan-rivers/217771

One time you might be ok just reading the link url and not the actual article.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Like, I feel like the fact that we don't hear many peeps out of the Mueller investigation, either about leads drying up OR about progress being made, means he hired serious professionals who care more about getting things done right than anything else.

Whatever their investigation comes up with, or if it even comes up with nothing, I trust that they have exhausted all possible avenues of evidence.

And yet, the trump camp now knows that they can ignore subpoenas and court orders from the investigation and just be pardoned.

(I'm still catching up so I'm sorry if this wss already discussed)
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I mean he'd have to double pardon for that to work. Once for the deed, then again after someone is held in contempt because they can't plea the fifth. And I'm still not 100% sure that's quite the same as what just happened as far as ability goes.
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Speaking of Alex Jones, got an anecdotal question: am I alone when I say I've seen my fair share of Info Wars stickers on stop signs? I see them on vehicles too (sometimes with Confederate flags), but I see them the most as I go out into the more rural spots of my area.

I like to think someone's trying to tell their neighbors to STOP Info Wars, but I don't believe that. =/
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Pardons don't extend to civil court, right? I hope this fucker gets litigated into oblivion.
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TheRock1525 posted...

https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2017/08/25/alex-jones-suggests-michelle-obama-has-penis-and-may-have-murdered-joan-rivers/217771

One time you might be ok just reading the link url and not the actual article.

This is the kind of stupid crap that made me stop taking the dude seriously. Even if Michelle is trans, who cares?

HaRRicH posted...

am I alone when I say I've seen my fair share of Info Wars stickers on stop signs?

I can't say that I've seen any in fresno



Edit: it quoted the wrong post at first.
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Peace___Frog posted...

Pardons don't extend to civil court, right? I hope this f***er gets litigated into oblivion.

Don't think so no.

Pardons are also an admission of guilt, so it should be a pretty easy civil court case to win.
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Reading that list of allegations against Arpaio almost made me queezy.
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HaRRicH posted...

Speaking of Alex Jones, got an anecdotal question: am I alone when I say I've seen my fair share of Info Wars stickers on stop signs? I see them on vehicles too (sometimes with Confederate flags), but I see them the most as I go out into the more rural spots of my area.

I like to think someone's trying to tell their neighbors to STOP Info Wars, but I don't believe that. =/

There's one intersection in Dallas that I've seen them on, but that's about it.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Reading that list of allegations against Arpaio almost made me queezy.

I mean, he had a "Concentration Camp" (HIS WORDS not mine) for 24 years, and lost a lot of wrongful death lawsuits.

Your reaction seems like the correct one.
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https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/us/charlottesville-protest-police.html

...Well.
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LapisLazuli posted...

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/us/charlottesville-protest-police.html

...Well.

I can't believe I'm gonna say this, but that's some biased ass reporting:

1. The dude who was being intimidated by the shot was not, "using an improvised torch". He was using an aerosol can as a flamethrower to keep the nazis back. There's pictures of the incident from different angles showing as much.

2. We already knew the cops had basically been told to stand down for bullshit reasons, but that also applied to mr flamethrower.

3. Where exactly WERE the cops? Like I'm all for calling them out for doing nothing, but where were they? If they were only in the high vis and not on the otherside they wouldn't have had LOS on the idiot cowboy.

4. Is what he did actually illegal? This is something I've got no idea on but we've got some scholarly folk here, he clearly shot without intending to harm, but is just the act of shooting illegal? I'd like it to be, but you guys have some fucked up laws.
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Pretty sure that's Reckless Discharge of a Firearm. You don't know where that shot will ricochet
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I'm also not entirely sure what the police could have done in all honesty, you have two groups of armed protesters. One admittedly vastly more armed than the other, but it's I'm assuming an open carry state? Because if not that just makes it even more farcical.

But, for the sake of argument. What do you do, when a bunch of scum turn up armed to the teeth, that doesn't just massively escalate the situation?

Edit: Admittedly I wouldn't complain all that much if the cops had laid the beat down on them, but I don't see how it doesn't end in bloodshed and with technically innocent protesters getting hurt. It's a really fucked up situation.
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MenuWars posted...

I'm also not entirely sure what the police could have done in all honesty, you have two groups of armed protesters. One admittedly vastly more armed than the other, but it's I'm assuming an open carry state? Because if not that just makes it even more farcical.

But, for the sake of argument. What do you do, when a bunch of scum turn up armed to the teeth, that doesn't just massively escalate the situation?

Considering police routinely go nuts and shoot the shit out of black men who don't even have guns, maybe something better than "nothing"?
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There's a reason we have riot police that are supposedly trained to de-escalate riots
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Jakyl25 posted...

There's a reason we have riot police that are supposedly trained to de-escalate riots

They can only handle people throwing water bottles, truly the most dangerous weapon.
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TheRock1525 posted...

MenuWars posted...

I'm also not entirely sure what the police could have done in all honesty, you have two groups of armed protesters. One admittedly vastly more armed than the other, but it's I'm assuming an open carry state? Because if not that just makes it even more farcical.

But, for the sake of argument. What do you do, when a bunch of scum turn up armed to the teeth, that doesn't just massively escalate the situation?

Considering police routinely go nuts and shoot the shit out of black men who don't even have guns, maybe something better than "nothing"?

This is also bullshit, they don't do it routinely at all. More white people are killed by cops each year than black people, yet black people (cough bullshit, but in the eyes of the law) commit more crime. Your police are absolutely overly militarised though so the only thing that makes sense is they were trying not to escalate a shit situation.

Unless we believe the entirety of the police force is under the thumb of Nazis... which I don't believe.
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Jakyl25 posted...

There's a reason we have riot police that are supposedly trained to de-escalate riots

Yeah exactly that's what the shield wall they brought out later was doing, but I don't see how they could have just rushed into the situation and not incited the mob. Tensions were already incredibly and you're dealing with fucking Nazis for god sake, they're not smart individuals nor averse to violence.
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MenuWars posted...

Your police are absolutely overly militarised

You could argue our citizens are overly militarized. <_<
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Jakyl25 posted...

MenuWars posted...

Your police are absolutely overly militarised

You could argue our citizens are overly militarized. <_<

I've already mentioned that and agree completely yes. Those guys disguised as the National Guard was beyond fucked up.
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MenuWars posted...

More white people are killed by cops each year than black people

Probably cause there's significantly more white than black people.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/20/health/black-men-killed-by-police/index.html
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Hmmmm... I still don't think it's "routine" but yes that goes more along the way of proving the disparity, compelling evidence. Much like that NYCPD lawsuit that was posted about the other day.

The fact that restraint is reported as being used less, is an obvious problem though.

From the other statistics I'd seen before it seemed like the amount of crime allegedly commited, compared to the amount of deaths balanced it out, but that article doesn't really go into details and I don't think anyone would deny that police target minority groups more for searches and things.

It's also a shame that learning being black was only 20% percent more likely to get you pulled over than being white, was actually less than I thought.
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https://www.wired.com/story/taylor-swift-conspiracy-theories/amp

Good article if you want a laugh.

The only conspiracy around that video is whether she's gonna get sued for ripping off Night in the Woods.
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Before his maybe-technically-legal but still extremely inappropriate pardon, Trump had attempted the definitely unacceptable move of trying to get the DoJ to drop the case against Arpaio:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/trump-asked-sessions-about-closing-case-against-arpaio-an-ally-since-birtherism/2017/08/26/15e5d7b2-8a7f-11e7-a94f-3139abce39f5_story.html

Also, a few quotes from Arpaio or his representatives in the article:

Arpaio and his legal team did not feel very good the next night, when they read a CBS News report that Trump was being advised not to pardon Arpaio until after his sentencing.

Goldman wrote a two-page letter to White House Counsel Donald F. McGahn II, sent on Friday morning, saying, “Hopefully this is more fake news,” and telling McGahn that a delay until after sentencing “would place Sheriff Arpaio in an untenable and unprecedented position.”

Without a pardon, Goldman said, Arpaio could be “sentenced, handcuffed, given a ‘perp walk’ and incarcerated” and “left to languish in federal custody.”

“If they can do it to me, they can do it to anybody, including the president of the United States,” Arpaio said. Alluding to the Russia probe, he said, “He’s been under a lot of fire right now, him and his family, and I’ve been through the fire quite a while.”

No, it wouldn't be unprecedented and yes, of fucking course they can "do it to anybody." That's kind of the whole fucking point of the rule of law!
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What would you guys think if Lincoln had issued a blanket pardon for all violations of the Fugitive Slave Act?
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Before his maybe-technically-legal but still extremely inappropriate pardon, Trump had attempted the definitely unacceptable move of trying to get the DoJ to drop the case against Arpaio:

Jeff Sessions may be a horrible choice to be AG, but I have to hand it to him, he at least seems to understand and respect the boundaries of the office.

He just has awful ideas about what to do within those boundaries.
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I hope a reporter goads Trump into a "What did Arpaio do that was so bad?" rant trying to justify his racially motivated torture as "tough on illegal immigration."
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What would you guys think if Lincoln had issued a blanket pardon for all violations of the Fugitive Slave Act?

Morally, I would approve. Constitutionally... Well. On paper, I think that a blanket pardon is overstepping the President's bounds; his branch does not get to decide what is legal or illegal. (Whereas, telling the Justice Department "make violations of the Fugitive Slave Act the lowest possible priority" is... sketchy, but not grounds for impeachment.)

However, Lincoln took office during what I feel I may conservatively call a major slavery-related crisis, and it got worse before it got better. I might well think this blanket pardon was unwise (if it were passed before Kentucky declared for the North, say) but under Lincoln's circumstances I would not consider it unconstitutional.
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Carter blanket pardoned Vietnam draft dodgers, right? It seems at least as justifiable as that.
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Andrew Johnson gave a blanket pardon to everyone who fought for the CSA. The precedent is it's legal, but only as to events that happened before the pardon. I.e. if Arpaio was still sheriff and continued to violate court orders he could be brought to Trial again for offenses after the date of the pardon.
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I mean Lincoln actually did things that were far more blatantly unconstitutional, such as the Emancipation Proclamation.
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That's the reason SmartMuffin thinks he's the WORST President
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http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a57184/confederate-statue-removal-reasons/

Trae Crowder wrote this about his dad (who used to rent me video games) and his Confederate flag.
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https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/901485168900284416

Good thread about the problem with "Soveriegn Citizens" that Trump is encouraging by pardoning Arpaio

They slide under the radar because we're dealing with Nazis at the moment but they're very dangerous, as the OKC bombing showed, and they flaunt their hooks they have in law enforcement to let them get away with shit others wouldn't.
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http://thehill.com/policy/defense/348099-mattis-to-us-troops-hold-the-line-until-our-country-gets-back-to-respecting

Incredible. We are so fucking lucky to have this dude right now.
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Yeah

I'd be willing to bet Mattis hates Trump's guts
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Its something of an accidental miracle that Mattis was so anti-Iran that he ended up a far-right darling or we'd be so fucked right now.
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Jakyl25 posted...

That's the reason SmartMuffin thinks he's the WORST President

still don't get how muffin thinks "we shouldn't have a government" and "a document that is specifically about the powers of the government is super important and anyone who doesn't adhere to it is evil" are compatible stances to have.
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