Current Events > So where do you stand on the Masterpiece Cake v. Colorado Civil Rights case?

(+) Yeah! (+)

For those unfamilar with the case, it's the latest in the long line of "Christian bakery won't bake a gay cake" cases and perhaps the most important.

The story is a homosexual male couple went to the bakery and demanded a cake.
The baker said he would not make them a custom cake because he does not support homosexuality BUT he would abide by anti-discrimination laws and sell them any pre-made cake from his display cabinet.

The gay couple refused the pre-made cakes and insisted he make them a custom one.
The Baker refused and the couple set the dogs on him. Leading to an enormous hullabaloo.

It's now up to the supreme court, the case is called Masterpiece Cake v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission and it's worth looking into.

Here are the thoughts of a bisexual Polish-American Lawyer who I like (not sexually):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2Y7s5E44so

So the issues (which is almost a hypothetical moral dilemma) are:

IS the baker discriminating even though he did offer to sell them cakes?
Is it okay for the gay couple to take him to court?
He employs 10 people and has a successful businsess? Is it right to destroy this for the sake of debatable morality.

And is it okay to FORCE a man against his will to create what is undeniably an art form, in a custom made wedding cake for something he feels is immoral. Citing the hypothetical of Neo-Nazis requesting a Nazi cake or a liberal requesting a congratulations on the abortion cake.

Many people feel this is a violation of the 1st amendment.
Others feel this is political correctness gone wrong.
And others feel this is sick and discriminatory.

What does CE think?

https://apocalypsecakes.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/gaywedding.jpg

This is a landmark case because the result of it will likely be a redrock that pretty much sets the stand for any and all "Gays vs Christian Businesses" Cases from here on out as it will set the precedent on how America views Religious Belief vs State Discrimination Laws.

tl:dr:
Is it discriminatory to refuse to create something custom for a customer you ARE willing to serve?
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if he still sold cookies and other non-wedding cakes, then obviously he wasn't saying his establishment refused to serve gay people but rather than he could not participate in a gay wedding via his artform he felt meant he supported it

and if he would give them a generic cake and not care if they put that in the wedding, then it might imply the wedding cake had other related services which caused the participation? maybe writing on the cake? delivering it in a special way?

I guess it could be compared to selling a painting a business could place on their wall vs. painting that wall with a mural

one allows you to distance yourself from that business and say you don't have a relationship with them while the other most certainly declares you have a relationship
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darkphoenix181 posted...

and if he would give them a generic cake and not care if they put that in the wedding,

I "think" he did care. He just respected what he thought was the law.

Kinda like "I made this cake, what you do with it is up to you, but I will not make a cake FOR A gay wedding."

That level of intention and distinction means a lot to Christians and nothing to an atheist.
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I'm starting to feel like these gay couples just search out Christian bakeries at this point. I've literally never seen a Christian bakery in my life.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

and if he would give them a generic cake and not care if they put that in the wedding,

I "think" he did care. He just respected what he thought was the law.

Kinda like "I made this cake, what you do with it is up to you, but I will not make a cake FOR A gay wedding."

That level of intention and distinction means a lot to Christians and nothing to an atheist.

yea, that is why I gave my mural analogy

in one, the mural is designed specifically for that business

in the other, the painting was just something that business acquired and it could have been painted for other reasons and even sold to someone else
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I think I'm leaning towards the baker.
Like you mentioned, he's willing to serve them, just not willing to participate in a gay wedding to the level of making a cake specifically for the event because he's sending a message by doing so. I'm curious as to what counts as a message or as a belief though. What's the guidelines for when this happens in other situations.

Also, I don't really like that this went to court. I'm sure the vast majority of places are not denying services for gay weddings. Putting this baker and this cake in the spotlight just makes evangelicals and others defensive and helps create a narrative that they're under attack in some way.
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emblem boy posted...

. Putting this baker and this cake in the spotlight just makes evangelicals and others defensive and helps create a narrative that they're under attack in some way.

This case proves that they are
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Baker wins based on the legal arguments (and makeup of the court)
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Man CE is split dead even on this
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Another thought, it seems like there is a healthy market for gay bakers.
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iron jojo posted...

Another thought, it seems like there is a healthy market for gay bakers.

Well you say that but no really

This is one of the Christian arguments. There are no shortage of bakeries who serve gay couples. It's just the religious ones who refuse.
They also point out that said gay couples avoid bakeries that will serve them AND then also avoid muslim bakeries that won't. Almost like they're targeting what the courts will pay out for
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iron jojo posted...

I'm starting to feel like these gay couples just search out Christian bakeries at this point. I've literally never seen a Christian bakery in my life.

this. pos just looking for a payout
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The Supreme Court is laying down equality. Plain and simple: it would never be allowed to force a person of ANY other religion to do anything they claim is forbidden. Why is it okay to beat up on Christians?

Short answer is that it's not. Equality doesn't exist if a certain group gets no consideration and protection. Has anybody noticed the renewed enthusiasm for Christmas? Whether you admit it or not, people are going all out. It's like seeing things through a different light.

Also, I 100% agree with the above post.
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--kresnik-- posted...

The Supreme Court is laying down equality.

And what does equality mean exactly?
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What if he was selling paintings or statues? Its art, or what could be legally argued to be art, at the end of the day. Theres little precedent for equal opportunity or representation in individuals art.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

--kresnik-- posted...

The Supreme Court is laying down equality.

And what does equality mean exactly?

That if one religion isn't forced to do things that violate their beliefs, that ALL religions should have the same protection.

You wouldn't demand a Muslim butcher to stock pork, would you? It's against their beliefs, and you could just buy the pork at one of the other dozens of stores.
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--kresnik-- posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

--kresnik-- posted...

The Supreme Court is laying down equality.

And what does equality mean exactly?

That if one religion isn't forced to do things that violate their beliefs, that ALL religions should have the same protection.

You wouldn't demand a Muslim butcher to stock pork, would you? It's against their beliefs, and you could just buy the pork at one of the other dozens of stores.

Analogy doesn't work as no one is demanding a bakery serve cakes when they don't bake cakes.

More akin analogy would be a Muslim butcher that does sell pork for some reason but not to Black people

That's the issue on debate here.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

iron jojo posted...

Another thought, it seems like there is a healthy market for gay bakers.

Well you say that but no really

This is one of the Christian arguments. There are no shortage of bakeries who serve gay couples. It's just the religious ones who refuse.
They also point out that said gay couples avoid bakeries that will serve them AND then also avoid muslim bakeries that won't. Almost like they're targeting what the courts will pay out for

What if that's their budget?

They'd go to a different one, but they can't.
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DrizztLink posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

iron jojo posted...

Another thought, it seems like there is a healthy market for gay bakers.

Well you say that but no really

This is one of the Christian arguments. There are no shortage of bakeries who serve gay couples. It's just the religious ones who refuse.
They also point out that said gay couples avoid bakeries that will serve them AND then also avoid muslim bakeries that won't. Almost like they're targeting what the courts will pay out for

What if that's their budget?

They'd go to a different one, but they can't.

That's capitalism.

If you can't afford serivce then you can't force another company do to a service that you don't provide.

It's also nonsense, launching a court case against someone costs a fortune.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

DrizztLink posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

iron jojo posted...

Another thought, it seems like there is a healthy market for gay bakers.

Well you say that but no really

This is one of the Christian arguments. There are no shortage of bakeries who serve gay couples. It's just the religious ones who refuse.
They also point out that said gay couples avoid bakeries that will serve them AND then also avoid muslim bakeries that won't. Almost like they're targeting what the courts will pay out for

What if that's their budget?

They'd go to a different one, but they can't.

That's capitalism.

If you can't afford serivce then you can't force another company do to a service that you don't provide.

It's also nonsense, launching a court case against someone costs a fortune.

I don't know enough on the case, I am standing down.
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I may be wrong, my specialty is more in bird law, but doesn't this open up a can of worms with regard to precedent?
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BettyWhite posted...

I may be wrong, my specialty is more in bird law, but doesn't this open up a can of worms with regard to precedent?

Yes.

The result of this case will be far reaching for every single gay cake nonsense dilemma from this point on
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The baker lawyer is a moron and said wedding makeup artists aren't expressive yet cakes are. That admission by itself shows that they don't even care about others expression, only their own expression for the sake of discrimination.

But I'm pretty sure the supreme Court will side with the baker because they stole the seat that Obama should have been able to fill.
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ModLogic posted...

iron jojo posted...

I'm starting to feel like these gay couples just search out Christian bakeries at this point. I've literally never seen a Christian bakery in my life.

this. pos just looking for a payout

Don't violate the law or attempt to subvert it to discriminate and nobody will have a legal case against you.
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no one is discriminating. just some shits lookin for a pay day
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ModLogic posted...

no one is discriminating. just some shits lookin for a pay day

Oh so they made a gay custom cake?
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oh so they were refused service?
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The baker is correct here imo
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ModLogic posted...

oh so they were refused service?

Yes
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Yeah, hes still discriminating, and a bigoted ass.
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cake shop sells cakes
pos were offered cakes
pos wanted payouts
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All I know is I'm never going to do custom stuff for a living.
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ModLogic posted...

cake shop sells cakes
pos were offered cakes
pos wanted payouts

So if a big black British man called Wesley went to McDonalds and ordered a big mac and they said "We don't serve burgers to n*****s but you can have fries"

IYO that's not discrimination because they sell fries and were offered fries?
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People are entitled to both freedom of conscience and equal dignity. Bakers or anybody else not performing an essential service such as medical care should not be punished for non-malicious expression of conscience nor should one ever be compelled to violate their conscience in order to render a service that is not a necessity to life and well-being.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

ModLogic posted...

cake shop sells cakes
pos were offered cakes
pos wanted payouts

So if a big black British man called Wesley went to McDonalds and ordered a big mac and they said "We don't serve burgers to n*****s but you can have fries"

IYO that's not discrimination because they sell fries and were offered fries?

That's a poor analogy. The baker is not refusing to sell a particular good to the gay couple. He will sell them cakes, cookies, pastries, whatever. He is only refusing to use the artistic expression side of his work in support of a gay marriage.

It is also far less arbitrary than saying a black man can buy a burger or not fries, which is not a rational decision at all.

Also the baker, if I recall directly, has refused his services to numerous groups, such as those throwing divorce parties.
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Callixtus posted...

That's a poor analogy. The baker is not refusing to sell a particular good

So the baker is selling custom cakes to the couple? Like he does for everyone who is not gay?
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For once, the religious bakery did literally nothing wrong as they still offered to serve them. The gay couple was literally looking for someone to sue, given the crazy.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Callixtus posted...

That's a poor analogy. The baker is not refusing to sell a particular good

So the baker is selling custom cakes to the couple? Like he does for everyone who is not gay?

Except he doesn't sell custom cakes to everyone. He has refused to use his artistic expression to celebrate things he thinks are immoral, like divorce parties.

But in theory, he would have no problem making a custom cake for a gay couple so long as it is not does not require his artistic expression to celebrate the gayness of their relationship.
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Liberals were cheering over the summer when a baker refused to make a pro Trump cake for a customer. Funny how they're now upset over this.
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DifferentialEquation posted...

Liberals were cheering over the summer when a baker refused to make a pro Trump cake for a customer. Funny how they're now upset over this.

As the blacksmith in Dragon's Dogma used to say

They're hypocrites all!
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UnfairRepresent posted...

IS the baker discriminating even though he did offer to sell them cakes?

Obviously he was if he offered custom cakes to one group but not the other. Why is this even a serious question?

Is it okay for the gay couple to take him to court?

If he broke the law then yes.

He employs 10 people and has a successful businsess? Is it right to destroy this for the sake of debatable morality.

Yes.

JE19426 posted...

Obviously he was if he offered custom cakes to one group but not the other. Why is this even a serious question?

So if a gang of Nazis asked for a Nazi cake, he would be obligated by law to do so?
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UnfairRepresent posted...

So if a gang of Nazis asked for a Nazi cake, he would be obligated by law to do so?

Where on earth did I say that?

UnfairRepresent posted...

JE19426 posted...

Obviously he was if he offered custom cakes to one group but not the other. Why is this even a serious question?

So if a gang of Nazis asked for a Nazi cake, he would be obligated by law to do so?

No because Nazis aren't a protected class.
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JE19426 posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

So if a gang of Nazis asked for a Nazi cake, he would be obligated by law to do so?

Where on earth did I say that?

Obviously he was if he offered custom cakes to one group but not the other. Why is this even a serious question?
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Obviously he was if he offered custom cakes to one group but not the other. Why is this even a serious question?

How is that saying:

"So if a gang of Nazis asked for a Nazi cake, he would be obligated by law to do so?"

JE19426 posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

Obviously he was if he offered custom cakes to one group but not the other. Why is this even a serious question?

How is that saying:

"So if a gang of Nazis asked for a Nazi cake, he would be obligated by law to do so?"

Because in your own words he offered a custom cake for one group but not another.
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The bigots on CE do a wonderful job of making themselves known.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Because in your own words he offered a custom cake for one group but not another.

How does that mean it is illegal?