Board 8 > Hearthstone Discussion Topic: No more need to pop the Block

(+) Yeah! (+)

UltimaterializerX posted...

You and I have the exact same odds of drawing a specific card each turn. If we have identical decks and I can't top deck Kill Command before you, oh well. That is acceptable. Our random odds are exactly the same.

What's NOT acceptable is my adapt not giving me lethal, and then yours gets you lethal. That isn't remotely the same RNG for both players.

What you described in situation 2 is exactly the same as situation 1. Just as both players have the same exact odds to draw a specific card each turn, each adapt/discover/whatever pulls from the exact same pool of outcomes for both players. How is "player A not drawing kill command for non-lethal, player B drawing kill command for lethal" any different from "player A adapts for non-lethal, player B adapts for lethal"?

What you're ultimately saying is that it's not the end result that matters, it's that both players have equal chance to achieve that end result, right? So how is discover/adapt any different if both players get access to the same result pool?
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It gets most value on 3 drops with above average likelihood of surviving a turn, right?

Like make carrion worm a 5/8, shuffle three 3 mana 5/8s.

Or let's see...

Cave Hydra seems decent.

Silverback Patriarch?? Control hunter finally?

King Mukla might be good.

Jungle Panther kinda scary, maybe? 3 mana 7/5 stealth

I understand the boar thing, just pondering other options. 1 mana 4/4 charge is great, but not as stellar when it's a 5 mana 4/4 charge on turn 5.

rank 23 plays

vs. handbuff paladin (W)
vs. hybrid paladin (L)
vs. ??? druid (W) - HUFFER
vs. jade druid (L) - HUFFER
vs. control paladin (L, MISPLAY)
vs. quest priest (W)
vs. dumpster priest (W)
vs. control priest (L) - LEOKK, HUFFER
vs. tempo mage (W) - HUFFER

### Never Trade
# Class: Hunter
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Mammoth
#
# 2x (1) Alleycat
# 2x (1) Arcane Shot
# 2x (1) Elven Archer
# 2x (1) Fiery Bat
# 2x (1) Tracking
# 2x (2) Bloodfen Raptor
# 2x (2) Crackling Razormaw
# 2x (2) Duskboar
# 2x (3) Animal Companion
# 2x (3) Bearshark
# 2x (3) Eaglehorn Bow
# 2x (3) Kill Command
# 2x (3) Unleash the Hounds
# 2x (3) Wolfrider
# 2x (4) Houndmaster
#
AAECAR8AD9gBoQKoAoUDtQPtBusHlwjbCf4MuK0C2rAC6rsCjsMC180CAA==
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone
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well I'm rank 22 now
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Hearthstone players are largely dumb enough to think trash like Firelands Portal into Leeroy Jenkins or Unstable Evolution into 3 charge minions in a row means they outplayed someone.

This is Ulti's entire problem right here and it's the same reason he moaned and complained about MVC3 (a game with virtually 0 RNG). Ulti is a sore loser and he has to justify every loss as being outside of his control to protect his fragile ego.

The irony here is that a lot of losses in Hearthstone ARE outside of your control; but a lot of losses aren't outside of your control either. Ulti thinks he's the better player in 100% of the games he plays and any loss is because his opponent was luckier.

I'm sure he's the kind of person that would blame a loss on his buttons in a fighting game in real person. That sounds like a scrub to me.

There's a reason that most of his whining posts start with "I was outplaying this guy...". I don't think Ulti has the mental maturity to deal with online competitive games.
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http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2018/04/Toki-IGN.jpg

"from the past" means a wild legendary and also there are no class restrictions

seems fun but also kinda bad
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For every Dr Boom youre just as likely to get Patches the Pirate
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UltimaterializerX posted...

It can create repetition. You're in jail in Monopoly. Your piece was captured in backgammon. You're trying to play Wild Wurm. Randomness can keep you from accomplishing what you want forcing you to try again and again. Up above, I talked about how important variance was because it keeps things from being the same. Well, sometimes randomness does the opposite. It forces you to keep doing the same thing, which is about as unfun as it gets.

First off, monopoly isn't even a good example because you get out of jail automatically after 3 turns, and the only skill that comes into play in monopoly is once most or all of the properties have become owned (bartering with others to trade, a skill of personality). Also, if you're in jail and didn't get very lucky, guess what, jail is 3 guaranteed turns of not having to pay someone money! Anyway, the example he gives with wild wurm brings up a good point because guess what? Don't like random elements in your deck? You don't have to put the card in your deck, which again brings into play the "deck-building is skillful" argument. If you don't like the fact that you relied on a random element and it let you down, then consider replacing that paladin adapt card with something that doesn't involve randomness!

UltimaterializerX posted...

It can create frustration (and worse). For starters, continually trying to get something and not getting it is frustrating, but randomness adds on an even more disheartening layer. Being unable to accomplish something due to factors outside your control makes you feel powerless. Randomness can not only keep you from getting what you want but can make you feel extra bad about it.

This is true, absolutely. No qualms with what he said here. This isn't exclusive to hearthstone.

UltimaterializerX posted...

It can keep the game from advancing. To add insult to injury, randomness can also keep games from advancing. The classic example of this comes from MMO (massively multiplayer online) games. You need an object to drop to complete your quest. If it randomly drops, that means it might never drop while you're playing. Randomness takes away the assurance that any particular thing ever happens.

We don't care about randomness as a concept, we care about randomness as it relates to hearthstone. Can you give me an example of how this comes into play for Hearthstone? It's not an MMO, the example he gives doesn't apply.

UltimaterializerX posted...

It can make the more experienced player lose. For the record, as a game designer, this isn't a negative for me, but I have to respect the fact that losing to a lesser player is a negative experience for many gamers. There is little more demoralizing to a good player than to see victory hinge upon something they cannot control.

Absolutely agree with this as well, no qualms with that either.

I've run out of room in this post to quote what I want to quote, so 2nd post incoming.
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Dire Frenzy on Rat Pack is amusing.

Ooh and Dispatch Kodo.

Let me quote something else from that article:

"It allows players to react. One of the biggest arguments against randomness is that it takes away from skill, the idea being that having everything under your control rewards the better players. Turns out it doesnt quite work that way. Let me explain. Random events happening in a game force players to do several things. One, they have to identify what is happening and what it means to the current game; two, they have to deduce how best to use the new variable to bend the game to their favor; and three, they have to maximize their other resources to take advantage of the new variable. It turns out that doing all this is pretty complicated and thus the more experienced players are much better at it. The more unpredictable, unknown variables that get added to a game, the more opportunity there is for the better player to take advantage of them. This is one of the major reasons, for example, that experienced Magic players have such an advantage in Draft formats. It turns out that the ability to react requires a lot of skill.

Randomness makes games more fun, more repeatable, and more skill-testing."

Mark Rosewater himself says that randomness makes games more skill-testing. How can you treat this article as gospel and not accept EVERYTHING he has to say about it?

UltimaterializerX posted...

There's no playing better by learning from mistakes, no decisions to make, nothing. It's literally all RNG effects deciding games, but HS streamlines it with games being decided quickly.

You never answered my questions about misplays being skill-based. I want to know what you think about decisions such as life-tapping last, playing too many minions on the board, when to use board clears, things like that. You won't derail me. Why do you keep shouting that there is LITERALLY ZERO skill involved, and yet refuse to answer my questions? All I want is answers to what you think ulti. Actual, logic based arguments on why such things do not consist of skill.
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KT isnt good

Rag and Sylv arent good in a Paladin meta which is where we very well may be heading with it and Warlock retaining many of their key cards. And Boom is more threatening than Emperor on curve but lol midrange Mage
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I think the best card to get from Tinker is probably Yogg
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It makes sense, it doesn't do damage after all, but I was still surprised when I killed a poisonous minion with 0 attack that my minion didn't die.
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That also works if you use Deathspeaker to make your minion immune. That may be even more obvious, though.
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Also, the opponents taunt totem getting stealth is pretty great. Just a dead spot on the board unless he gets some sort of buff.
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https://i.redditmedia.com/Cb-BU35jTOj5WUH0pMyWh7kGEpvkYmwcAPIKQkYgSt8.jpg?w=530&s=ee476e44f8efd3ceb12d1f7b21d28d1c

Other Druid legendary

Good with Chain Gang or Tyrant
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rank 22 plays

vs control priest (L) - LEOKK
vs control paladin (L) - HUFFER
vs control priest (W, OPPONENT MISPLAY)
vs control priest (L)
vs c'thun priest (L) - MISHA, LEOKK
vs aggro hunter (W) - HUFFER
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Me summon Leokk?
NOPE

Summon Huffer?
YUP

Summon Misha?
NOPE

Another Huffer?
YUP
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trdl23 posted...

Me summon Leokk?
NOPE

Summon Huffer?
YUP

Summon Misha?
NOPE

Another Huffer?
YUP

FACE NEVER TRADE
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I have a 60% rate of summoning Huffer right now so those lyrics are surprisingly accurate
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I have summoned many a Huffer back in the day!
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I mean, he's not defending it, he's giving both good and bad points of it. That's hardly what I call bias. All you're doing by saying that is trying to cherry pick what he did say to support your argument without looking at the context of the article as a whole.

I'm still waiting on answers for my other questions. If you're not gonna answer them, just go ahead and say so so I can be done with it.
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Keep in mind I generally agree Hearthstone has too many random elements in the card design, and actually quit Hearthstone years ago because I felt the game was trending towards more and more random nonsense (lurking these topics more is sorta tempting me to get back into it).

That doesn't mean there's no skill involved, though. By my estimation you still seem pretty bad at the game, Ulti. Maybe you should post replays or decklists or general strategy ideas or somethin so people can give you advice instead of repeating the same mistakes over and over and complaining about em. There seem to be a lot of players who have an idea of what they're doing in here.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

No one is bad at Hearthstone.

Exactly. Some people just have lower average win rates as a direct result of their decisions.

Alright, well since ulti won't answer me, or make an honest attempt at reevaluating his views, back on ignore with you
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You didnt answer me though!
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What about before the game even starts, the process of deckbuilding?

What about situations that others have brought up, such as knowing when to press for board control and when to hold back to wait for a clear? Or doing things like getting the random element out of the way first with life tap/discover cards? Are these not things that require skill to navigate? These are conscious decisions that players make in order to swing the game in their favor, are they not? Is that not what skill is?

Why did you speak of Kripp as deserving of the #1 player status earlier? You spoke as though the reason he is the #1 player is because he consistently makes the best plays. Is that not skill?

What you're ultimately saying is that it's not the end result that matters, it's that both players have equal chance to achieve that end result, right? So how is discover/adapt any different if both players get access to the same result pool?

Aaaaallllll these are questions that you did not address directly, but instead referred to an article by mark rosewater that not only isn't about hearthstone, but isn't even completely for your argument.

Assuming this is what ulti is saying, anyway, that he did answer me. Because let it be known that while he did in fact answer SOME of my early questions, he stopped directly addressing them point by point as I did with him, once it became apparent I had comebacks for each of his arguments.

What I want, ulti, is to go back and forth until one of us has no other answer than, "I was wrong, you were right" and it's apparent I will not get that with you, so good bye.
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more rank 22 plays

vs hybrid priest (W,OPPONENT MISPLAY)
vs dragon priest (W) - MISHA

RANK UP

rank 21 plays

vs aggro taunt priest (L) - LEOKK
vs jade druid (W,OPPONENT MISPLAY)
vs hyena hunter (L)
vs quest priest (L)
vs midrange shaman (L)
vs secret hunter (L)

that shaman match was a pretty fair loss but the other three at the end there were among the worst I've had today. having the three worst matches all clustered together has left me with some serious butthurt so I'm gonna call it quits for now.
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so here's how my first tavern brawl went



0 attack stealth taunts are good

Lol I went rogue for a quest and won 2 pretty easily
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I think you should just call it a day, Emerald. There's no getting through and at this point he's just repeating the same points he always makes.
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davidponte posted...

I think you should just call it a day, Emerald. There's no getting through and at this point he's just repeating the same points he always makes.

Yeah I'm done, I mainly posted that so that no one was confused about what exactly it is I wanted or what I wanted answered that he didn't answer. He's back on ignore, all is right with the world again.
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Emeraldegg posted...

Lol I went rogue for a quest and won 2 pretty easily

First two I picked mage and had a continuous streak of taunts getting stealth. Third game I picked hunter and won with a 10/10 windfury King Crush

UltimaterializerX posted...

https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/89u3qz/i_think_my_opponent_just_found_out_why_random/

"Skill."

If you are the type of player who is using Spreading Madness on turn 3 with an empty board then you probably are going to lose even if all 9 damage hit the mage instead.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

davidponte posted...

I think you should just call it a day, Emerald. There's no getting through and at this point he's just repeating the same points he always makes.

There is no debate when Blizzard's own staff told me I am right, genius.

a dramatization of this conversation;

Ulti: hey you work at blizzard

Blizzard guy: uh yeah I'm an animator for heroes of the storm

Ulti: cool yeah. So hearthstone is total skillless bullshit, right? [insert roughly twenty minute rant here] It's all just random and I definitely am not losing because I'm bad, right? It's not my fault!

Blizzard guy: oh yeah totally, you're great. I have to go do diarrhea now bye.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/89u3qz/i_think_my_opponent_just_found_out_why_random/

"Skill."

M

a skilled player wouldn't play that garbage card
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I'm the most skilled at getting the 500tj post.
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